Consider changing some of the individual buffs
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-11 14:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Personally, I would prefer it if most buffs single target buffs were permanent per-zoning, with exceptions being made for powerful buffs that are balanced around being applied to one person (Adrenalin Boost, for example).
This, with an added Buff removal option (and an option in the menu that allows you to auto-decline buffs), would solve most buffing relating issues for me. People that hate constant rebuffage would be appealed, people that hate getting Sbed/Iced/Fired could stay normal, and things like AB would keep their flavor and wouldn't need to be rebalanced. The only powers I could see being affected would be clear mind (and clones), fortitude, and forge.
The reason I want the permanancy to require staying in zone is that it would prevent player-abusals of the new system (such as getting buffs by random shielders and walking around permanently with shields on). This would also help prevent some current bugs from being exploited.
TW/Elec Optimization
I'd say the system is fine as is.
I would NOT like to see the end/recharge, etc hit that some powers WOULD get from the devs if they were changed from single target to AOE.
Also as mentioned there would be no way to avoid buffing some folks who don't want them. Folks mentioned auto decline as a solution to that.
Except that it's not.
I'll explain:
Say the one person who hates sb on the team has the newly AOE buffs on auto decline. But say there is also a thermal on the team and he likes those buffs. Guess what?
By auto declining all buffs that person just does not get sb, he also does not get the thermal buffs, AM, or any other buffs.
Now say it's the tank on an itf? What then?
You can see where I'm going with this.
I do not see it as REALISTIC to think that the devs would allow the auto decline to work on selective buffs. The only way it would work would be for you to right click each buff you have next to your name and cancel those. As that just sounds tedious as I type it the only way it could be done (standard code rant here) would be auto declining or auto allowing. And that leads us right back to the problem above.
Allowing folks to auto decine buffs: good idea.
Changing single target buffs to AOE: horrible idea.
/unsigned.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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This is how I feel. Those are the buff sets I always avoid too. I tried /FF on a Mastermind in CoV beta and just re-buffing a few pets every 4 minutes was annoying enough for me. I just know I'd hate being nagged for buffs by players on a full team if I was slow to re-apply.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I would love for the single-target buffs to have a much longer duration, or be AoE. But I also know the reasons and logic for not changing those things. For now, I just find those powers to be so dull, and I don't really enjoy playing the sets. Some people might, so I'll leave them to it. Until something changes, I won't be rolling any FF, Thermal, Cold, or Sonic toons. But I can get along without having those.
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With so much rational opposition to making these buffs PBAE, I think a longer duration is the answer - I can't see any reason for players to oppose that (though I'm sure someone will...) - but the real question is would the Devs go for it?
Personally I'd love it if these buffs lasted long enough for one entire regular mission, so you only had to cast them at the start of a mission - and if they only needed re-applying once during a long mission, such as on a TF/SF - maybe a 15-20min duration. That would be enough to convince me to play the buffing sets that I currently avoid, because 4 minutes just feels too short a duration for my liking - especially as I don't benefit from the buffs either.
Or maybe I'm just not selfless enough to devote my playstyle to defensive support - perhaps I should stick to debuffing or controlling when I want to play a support role - at least I enjoy that, regardless of whether my contribution is noticed/appreciated. I guess buffing doesn't have to be its own reward when you have so many players thanking you for it (probably from relief that they don't have to be the ones rebuffing every 4 minutes
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Originally Posted by Combat
Personally, I would prefer it if most buffs single target buffs were permanent per-zoning, with exceptions being made for powerful buffs that are balanced around being applied to one person (Adrenalin Boost, for example).
This, with an added Buff removal option (and an option in the menu that allows you to auto-decline buffs), would solve most buffing relating issues for me. |
I found this old link on Massively.com, referring to this short article at Kill Ten Rats, where it was briefly discussed - comments on the latter mention CoH as being especially tedious for buff re-application. Bad press like this (and the underlying tedium) is the sort of thing that can put potential subscribers off playing certain MMOs.
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You benefit a great deal from buffs you put on others.|
Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem
especially as I don't benefit from the buffs either.
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Why do you want to only use your powers at the beginning of a mission? Do you only want to toggle on Fireball, and then walk through a mission without having to press anymore buttons? Do you like activating Freezing Rain? Other people like activating Deflection Shield.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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That comes with the caveat "depending on the activities of the team/teammate."|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You benefit a great deal from buffs you put on others.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why do you want to only use your powers at the beginning of a mission? Do you only want to toggle on Fireball, and then walk through a mission without having to press anymore buttons? Do you like activating Freezing Rain? Other people like activating Deflection Shield.
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But I guess I'll tackle this head on, just in case you fail to read the line above as well. Attacks (and debuffs and controls) are obviously very different because they affect something which will probably not be around for very long and will likely be trying to defeat you, unlike your ally who should be with you for the whole mission (all things being equal) and unless they're a damn poor teammate will not be trying to kill you. What that means is that attacks/debuffs/controls involve a lot more tactical thought re when/where/how to use them compared to an ally buff which, as a preventative measure, should probably be up all the time - you just never know when someone might be attacked due to an unforeseen ambush, overspill of the aggro cap, over-aggroing by themselves (maybe by using fireball at the wrong moment
), so if that damage/attack type is present somewhere in the current mission then you should probably maintain that protective buff shield on all allies. Also there is only one way to use a buff, whereas attacks can have other applications (as debuffs, as an aid to pulling, as an aggro tool, etc.) - again, more tactical decisions/uses. Many of my favourite powers have multiple tactical uses (Howling Twilight is a very good example). I like ongoing tactical decisions - 4 minute buffs do not really involve ongoing tactical decisions, to my mind - they are just a time-dictated task to maintain (i.e. a chore, to many) - no real thought or skill involved once you determine whether they are needed in the current mission - and even the chosen 4 minutes for the duration seems rather arbitrary. Now if there was a defensive buff you could cast on a teammate that gave them +75% resist (all) for 10 seconds, that could instead be cast on an enemy for a -37.5% resist (all) debuff for 20 seconds, but that also caused -75% resist (all) to the caster for 10 seconds when used, and it had a 3 minute recharge, then that would be a protective buff that required ongoing tactical decision making (especially if it was in a powerset without heals, like Force Fields, so that was one of the few ways of preventing damage to teammates directly) - that would be a buffing power that I would find fun.
Taking your ridiculous accusation to the opposite ludicrous extreme, would you rather mastermind pet upgrades were changed into 4 minute buffs as well, in case someone somewhere enjoys activating those? After all, they do have very cool animations... Hey maybe the detoggle bug should be brought back as a "feature" too... [Warning: sarcasm may be present in this paragraph]
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Why "only buffs"? I understand that people are only asking for this treatment for buffs; I am asking you to tell me why you mind using some powers, but not others. Which you proceed to do "just in case", although that is precisely what I wanted to know.|
Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem
Sigh. Buffs... only buffs... it's even in the title of the thread...
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Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem
But I guess I'll tackle this head on, just in case you fail to read the line above as well. Attacks (and debuffs and controls) are obviously very different because they affect something which will probably not be around for very long and will likely be trying to defeat you, unlike your ally who should be with you for the whole mission (all things being equal) and unless they're a damn poor teammate will not be trying to kill you. What that means is that attacks/debuffs/controls involve a lot more tactical thought re when/where/how to use them compared to an ally buff which, as a preventative measure, should probably be up all the time - you just never know when someone might be attacked due to an unforeseen ambush, overspill of the aggro cap, over-aggroing by themselves (maybe by using fireball at the wrong moment
), so if that damage/attack type is present somewhere in the current mission then you should probably maintain that protective buff shield on all allies. Also there is only one way to use a buff, whereas attacks can have other applications (as debuffs, as an aid to pulling, as an aggro tool, etc.) - again, more tactical decisions/uses. Many of my favourite powers have multiple tactical uses (Howling Twilight is a very good example).I like ongoing tactical decisions - 4 minute buffs do not really involve ongoing tactical decisions, to my mind - they are just a time-dictated task to maintain (i.e. a chore, to many) - no real thought or skill involved once you determine whether they are needed in the current mission - and even the chosen 4 minutes for the duration seems rather arbitrary. Now if there was a defensive buff you could cast on a teammate that gave them +75% resist (all) for 10 seconds, that could instead be cast on an enemy for a -37.5% resist (all) debuff for 20 seconds, but that also caused -75% resist (all) to the caster for 10 seconds when used, and it had a 3 minute recharge, then that would be a protective buff that required ongoing tactical decision making (especially if it was in a powerset without heals, like Force Fields, so that was one of the few ways of preventing damage to teammates directly) - that would be a buffing power that I would find fun. Taking your ridiculous accusation to the opposite ludicrous extreme, would you rather mastermind pet upgrades were changed into 4 minute buffs as well, in case someone somewhere enjoys activating those? After all, they do have very cool animations... Hey maybe the detoggle bug should be brought back as a "feature" too... [Warning: sarcasm may be present in this paragraph] |
There are plenty of sets that do not require time-dictated buffing. There is room in the game for sets that do require time-dictated buffing, IMO. I can also argue that there are times where even these single target buffs require some tactical thought, but I admit its rare. I will argue against changing the nature of these buffs, however, because I enjoy the sets as they are and I am pretty sure I would lose a lot of my enjoyment if they were changed as suggested. Minor duration tweaks, maybe. Make bubbles last until you zone, not my cup of tea.
As far as your MM question goes, I didn't mind the old MM buffing method and my pets died frequently enough that I probably was buffing them every 5 minutes or so. That is not to say I was/am against the change to MM buffing, but I did not mind the old way either.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Well, I gave a big list on page one why buffs like FF may or may not rub me the wrong way. None of them really apply to regular attacks. You may give that a look to see if you can figure it out. I'll admit I don't fully understand why I hate upkeeping buffs (or pets like Voltiac Sentinel). I just know it's not a fun mechanic.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why "only buffs"? I understand that people are only asking for this treatment for buffs; I am asking you to tell me why you mind using some powers, but not others. Which you proceed to do "just in case", although that is precisely what I wanted to know.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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In all honesty, why do you care at all how other people might want you to play? It seems to be a big issue for you.|
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
... But it gets rather frustrating when people start telling you to do otherwise; and they WILL tell you to do otherwise. To me, it's more of a "shield them so they shut up" instead of a "shield them so the team can survive"... I don't need to worry about people constantly turning me to keep it on.... And I know I'm exaggerating. I have a biased opinion. I just don't like buff ATs at all. ...you'd be surprised how many times people actually DO tell you how to play your character. And I'm not talking about exceptional cases when the team is failing and people tell each other what to do so they can cooperate better. |
Tell them to go jump.
Those who try to force others to play a specific way are the ones that need to lose good teammates.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
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You do have a very good point here.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
There are plenty of sets that do not require time-dictated buffing. There is room in the game for sets that do require time-dictated buffing, IMO. I can also argue that there are times where even these single target buffs require some tactical thought, but I admit its rare. I will argue against changing the nature of these buffs, however, because I enjoy the sets as they are and I am pretty sure I would lose a lot of my enjoyment if they were changed as suggested. Minor duration tweaks, maybe. Make bubbles last until you zone, not my cup of tea.
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I had a friend in EverQuest who played a shaman (very buff-orientated class) who liked buffing and it was because what he mainly wanted from the game was to help people by doing something that wasn't too challenging/reactive, so that he could fulfill his role while also smoking, watching TV and chatting with the team - so he was our buffer, but we never expected much else from him. I just didn't "get" his playstyle, but then he couldn't understand why I found gear selection, tactical pulling and planning how to take a spawn/room apart so fun. I just thrived on reactive and dynamic gameplay with multiple tactical possibilities, whereas he wanted predictable repetition. The difference between a Social player and an Explorer I guess, in Bartle terms. Horses for courses.
Like you say there are obviously people who like how CoH's buff-heavy powersets play (though not many, I'd argue, seeing how rare the Thermal, Sonic, Cold & FF sets seem to be in-game), so I can defer to you that they shouldn't be changed - it doesn't bother me to just go on as I have done previously, thinking "those sets just aren't for me" (and Kinetics too, because I find that repetitive thanks to SS/ID/SB - though I do like the rest of the set), except that I wish there were more sets that I did like playing, as I have played Rad Emission, Storm Summoning and Dark Miasma to 50 (and am playing them again in the case of Rad and Dark), I'm currently working on /TA and have plans for /Traps (Pain/Emp I avoid because I'm rubbish at healing
) - I just hope we get another new debuff/control/PBAE-buff set soon, so I can play something different.With that my ulterior motive is clear - the debuffs in Sonic/Thermal/Cold are the main reasons I am attracted to those sets enough to want the "mini-bubble" type buffs changed to a duration that I find less of a chore.
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Do half the damage of a Blaster, with half of the defense of a Scrapper? |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If this was done for Empathy Defenders, you don't even want to know what it would allow them to do.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I think there needs you be a way to remove individual buffs if you don't want them, like right click on buff icon and select remove as an option and do not accept speed boost as an option (for example).
Not that I would use the function myself, I like all buffs - more the merrier 
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Do half the damage of a Blaster, with half of the defense of a Scrapper?
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You forgot about letting them solo at a pace that isn't glacial. A team of 8 defenders is overwhelming a team of 2 not so much a team of 1 that can buff itself not so much at all.
Also to FF defenders being able to cap themselves why not ? SR and SD scrappers can do this and they don't even take the damage output hit
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...Because SR and SD Scrappers can't soft cap other players?
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Also to FF defenders being able to cap themselves why not ? SR and SD scrappers can do this and they don't even take the damage output hit
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Well, I gave a big list on page one why buffs like FF may or may not rub me the wrong way. None of them really apply to regular attacks. You may give that a look to see if you can figure it out. I'll admit I don't fully understand why I hate upkeeping buffs (or pets like Voltiac Sentinel). I just know it's not a fun mechanic.
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Perhaps its the same for you as it is for me. When combat starts I am trying to kill the enemy. The last thing I want to do is keep checking on the team status window to see if any of them need buffing. It only gets more and more annoying with shorter term buffs that need to be applied individually.
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It just makes it easier. Its pretty easy to softcap a FF defender with IOs. Especially if you are willing to go for only one position. And theoretically the scrapper, is in the thick of it absorbing that damage stream when he is teamed.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
...Because SR and SD Scrappers can't soft cap other players?
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In response to the OP: this is a generally bad idea. MM buffs being AoE is purely a QoL issue - the buffs don't apply to the owner, and all the buffs do is give pets new powers, as opposed to buffing the pets. Additionally, pets are limited by their AI programming - they won't be able to perform nearly as well as a player in a given situation. I may not like putting SB back on every 90 seconds, or Sonic/Therm shields every 4 minutes, but making those powers PBAoE would mean I'd need to wait for my teammates to gather on me before using them, the recharge would be longer, and they wouldn't be as effective (for an example of what I'm talking about, see World of Pain). I'd rather jump around through my teammates, hitting them in order when possible and getting to others when it's not.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I'm not sure that's the best comparison power. Thermal and Sonic shields wouldn't necessarily become weaker if turned into an AoE. WoP not only affects the caster, but also adds DMG and ToHit. If all those things weren't true, it would probably be on-par with a regular shield power.
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Originally Posted by macskull
making those powers PBAoE would mean I'd need to wait for my teammates to gather on me before using them, the recharge would be longer, and they wouldn't be as effective (for an example of what I'm talking about, see World of Pain).
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I think mac means the devs might MAKE THEM weaker if they changed it in the fashion he was mentioning.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm not sure that's the best comparison power. Thermal and Sonic shields wouldn't necessarily become weaker if turned into an AoE. WoP not only affects the caster, but also adds DMG and ToHit. If all those things weren't true, it would probably be on-par with a regular shield power.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Why exactly? There's not any good parallels that I can think to point to. The only similar powers you can compare always have the benefit of affecting the user, and pretty much always have some other component as well (like +DMG, +mez resist, +stealth, etc).|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think mac means the devs might MAKE THEM weaker if they changed it in the fashion he was mentioning.
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When MM pet buffs were changed to AoE, they weren't decreased in effectiveness. They weren't nerfed or made less powerful by increasing the recharge or removing powers from pets. They weren't even increased proportionally in endurance like some other people in this thread have suggested would happen to other buffs.
Unless the forcefield buffs affected the target, I don't see any trend that would suggest they'd need to be nerfed or made less effective. Any comparable AoE power that's similar to a single target power has other factors that make up the difference in stats. This is more likely for variety than anything else.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yeah, I always see this nonsense about how overpowered defenders would be if they could self buff. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Do half the damage of a Blaster, with half of the defense of a Scrapper?
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It's a load of nonsense. They would still have gimp hit points, gimp damage and a joke inherent. BFD. A fully self buffed defender would still be the fat kid on the playground if he tried to solo.
Too many alts to list.
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Hmm... Empathy...|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Yeah, I always see this nonsense about how overpowered defenders would be if they could self buff.
It's a load of nonsense. They would still have gimp hit points, gimp damage and a joke inherent. BFD. A fully self buffed defender would still be the fat kid on the playground if he tried to solo. |
Capped Regen, Recovery, 25% defense, heck, lets throw in leadership, 30% defense, blaster level damage (though, no build up) crashless-nukes, oh yeah, and +170% recharge, all of this perma with SOs by just taking Hasten.
Nah, that wouldn't be over powered.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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Still seems like a fair deal to me. FF Defenders get super defense, can give others super defense. Crappy offense. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
...Because SR and SD Scrappers can't soft cap other players?
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Whereas my Fire/Shield has super defense, can give others decent defense. Frightening offense (for the NPCs)!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Please show your work, because I can't see:|
Originally Posted by Psyonico
Hmm... Empathy...
Capped Regen, Recovery, 25% defense, heck, lets throw in leadership, 30% defense, blaster level damage (though, no build up) crashless-nukes, oh yeah, and +170% recharge, all of this perma with SOs by just taking Hasten. Nah, that wouldn't be over powered. |
How you get perma capped regen/recovery. It's going to be up a lot, but not perma as far as I can see.
How you get Blaster level damage?
And you're going to be casting quite a bit for all this whereas a meleer can get to this and have a stronger attack chain. And not get one-shotted by AVs because of flimsy HP.
EDIT: And I know you were responding to Doc, but the OP specifically excepted buffs like Adrenalin Boost, Hoarfrost, etc. that do not have the recharge to be on the whole team at once.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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simple Green Machine Tactics...|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Please show your work, because I can't see:
How you get perma capped regen/recovery. It's going to be up a lot, but not perma as far as I can see. How you get Blaster level damage? And you're going to be casting quite a bit for all this whereas a meleer can get to this and have a stronger attack chain. And not get one-shotted by AVs because of flimsy HP. EDIT: And I know you were responding to Doc, but the OP specifically excepted buffs like Adrenalin Boost, Hoarfrost, etc. that do not have the recharge to be on the whole team at once. |
Adrenaline boost caps your recovery without slotting a single thing, turns out my numbers are wrong, AB will not cap your regen, but it will put you at IH levels permanently (thanks to the +100% rech in it with hasten they are both perma)
For defenders Fortitude + Assault = a permanent 50% damage boost
Regen Aura will be up about 70% of the time to have your regen capped
You'll be casting 3 buffs every 90 seconds (CM, AB, Fort), really, the RAs are unnecessary unless you're teaming, then only for the sake of the team.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
While on a team, many players are already hugging each other way too much. I don't think giving them even more intentive to do so is such a good idea.