I'm still waiting on a simple option to change the colors of my bane cape. Whats the hold up on that or the issue that kept it from being included with VEATS in the first place?
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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Thing about this it's still me using the power, I may gain the ability to use it from a patron (or kheld) but it's me using it. If someone shows me how to draw a circle and they use a red pen but mine is blue then circles I draw will be blue, not red.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
The issue with epic archetypes is the powers come from the same fictional source, function in the same ways, and presumably should look the same. This is somewhat true of patron powers as well, where the powers are boons granted by a particular patron and aren't really a power of the player character. We haven't made any firm decisions to do or not do customization for Epic Archetypes or patron powers. Ancillary powers is perfectly reasonable, but we wouldn't be able to do those without doing patron powers at the same time...even though we hate villains.
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There's sort of a dichotomy in developer treatment for the canon/epic/whatever you wish to call it treatment.
Patron/Arachnos, for whatever reason, seem to be treated somewhat in 'canon' mode..."These are part of our story, they come from our canon sources, they can't be changed" kind of thing.
Yet we can enhance our patron/Arachnos powers to do drasticly new things, or act in ways absolutely unique from canon. Bane spiders without maces, fortunatas with claws, mastermind crab soldiers; patron blasts that can hold foes in tesla cages, patron powers with a chance to do absolutely new damage types, the list goes on. Don't get me started on the male widows wearing yellow and fuchsia.
There's a bit of inconsistency, and I, as a concept design nut, would say that devs should pick a side- in this case, I would hope they'd choose the 'open' side. If they want all of this to be absolutely canon, not diverting from their story, wouldn't it make sense for all the Arachnos/Arachnos powers/patron powers to be un-customizable? No slotting, no coloring, just lots and lots of set in stone 'temp' powers. No? Not fun? Then perhaps loosen up, admit the players have control over their 'epic' and patron' abilities, and do with them as they please. Pink mu lightning/green psy blasts and all. 
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I am pretty sure that "because I feel like it" is good enough justification for changing the color of your powers. Not everyone that plays this game roleplays, and to suggest that they not change their power colors because they can't come up with a good RP reason is ridiculous. Let's say, for example, that I like the Rad Blast set, but I can't stand the color of it. I can change it to whatever I want, because that option is there. Same goes for just about anything else. Only problem I really have with color customization is how some people have managed to change the FF and Sonic bubbles into seizure-inducing blobs.
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Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
Good point.
The important thing to note is that you have a REASON to change your fire from "normal" fire. My issue is that lots of folks change it for no good reason at all... and since there is no way to make sure each character has a concept of why their darkness powers are now yellow, I favored just to not give the option at all... but I suppose it is wrong to penalize those of us who WOULD have reasoning and DO have creativity for those lacking one or both. (And yes I know fire can be more than just redish orange, hence why I said "in general.") |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I've never understood the in game explanation for being given patron powers in the first place. If you're a tech character, why are you suddenly given mystical electric Mu powers?
The thought process I use in RP, is that there is a certain understanding in the world around us that heroes and villains are only allowed to function within certain Archetype/Powersets (heroes so that no one is too powerful, villains by decree of Recluse, monitored by Arachnos, for the same reason). When characters reach a certain point, they're allowed the ability to expand their powers a little further by any available means, within certain restrictions. A tech Mastermind doesn't suddenly get Mu electric powers, he is given permission to use technology to emulate Mu electric powers (in this case, using technology).
If it can be accepted that characters function within preset limitations for a reason, then you explain away not only why you can't have overpowered things like a pet/armor archetype, but also why any character can change any power to any color. Villains aren't literally being granted origin crossing powers from their patrons, they're just copying them with what's available to each individual villain.
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Unfortunately, I think this gets to the heart of the matter of patron customization. There is no reason why a Gravity/Empathy controller could all of a sudden throw fireballs, but players playing such a character liked the damage, so they went with it.|
Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
I've never understood the in game explanation for being given patron powers in the first place. If you're a tech character, why are you suddenly given mystical electric Mu powers?
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Looking at this (this is pure conjecture) The devs seem to have settled on an cannon way to solve this. Why, that robots/traps mastermind can't do stuff with spirit sharks. That makes no sense. But he instead uses his patron's power to summon them! As I've said, this doesn't entirely hold up as the game goes on. You can slot Mako's power with your own enhancements. You can use Mako's power against Captain Mako. You can use it after you betray him, before you make up and he realizes you still have uses. If it's Mako's stuff, wouldn't he be able to rescind it?
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BabB as a long time Villain Player I would be fine with "Splitting the difference" as far a Patron Customization goes.|
Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That is only true for patron powers, not ancillary powers.
The issue with epic archetypes is the powers come from the same fictional source, function in the same ways, and presumably should look the same. This is somewhat true of patron powers as well, where the powers are boons granted by a particular patron and aren't really a power of the player character. We haven't made any firm decisions to do or not do customization for Epic Archetypes or patron powers. Ancillary powers is perfectly reasonable, but we wouldn't be able to do those without doing patron powers at the same time...even though we hate villains. All of them would happen after Pool power customization, and that isn't likely to happen anytime before Going Rogue gets wrapped up (requires tech and UI work). |
Examples of Full Customization: Any Patron Power that recycles existing customizable powersets. (Electrical attacks, Normal Dark attacks, some of the more generic Ice attacks)
Examples of "Color Customization": Any power that has a signature "Animation" but allow for people to select the color. Mostly this would apply to Mako Shark Attacks, and possible the bile spray.
Ghost Widow's hold is iffy in terms of customization. I'm not sure allowing color customization would make the power look any better that it does now.
Summoned Arachnos Pets: If it's possible to recolor the various Pets ala the AE custom mob generator, I'd say go for it. However if it's not really possible then I'd say drop it.
Examples of "Limted/No Customization": Scorpion's Mace attacks have a certain amount of Weapon Customization already, being able to color the mace. That leaves the Patron Sheilds which you could leave at "No Customization" since the aminations for them are unique and subtle. AT MOST I could see recoloring possible for the Electric and Dark Shields, but not the other two since the effect isn't that noticable.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
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Anyone can give any excuse for why their character can do something. Manipulating gravity powers on empathy, mutating the ability to draw powers from the sun, technological/magical upgrade, tapping into the latent talent of your bloodline/species, anything. Or you can choose that there is no reason.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
There is no reason why a Gravity/Empathy controller could all of a sudden throw fireballs...
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Same thing with patron powers, you can decide that your character had a short lived relationship with one of the four generals (which seems less likely after you start repeating patron arcs on characters), or you can decide that none of that was canon and you just happen to have powers that look like what Ghost Widow can grant. How many people that focus on RP go through the game with all of their characters (several of them repeating the same arcs) and decide that everything each character experienced was canon?
I'm not saying "Patron/Ancillary Power Pool Customization Nao!" I'm just saying that when/if the time comes, there is no reasoning that can't be explained away.
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I can see allowing Patron powers to be customized without breaking immersion... after all, the patrons are basically teaching you to use the power or giving you the device that produces it (like an Arachnos mace), but your character is the one actually using it. Would it really be that hard for a villain to tinker with his Arachnos mace to make it fire a blue beam, or to tweak her Soul Storm spell to be bright pink?
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That is only true for patron powers, not ancillary powers.
The issue with epic archetypes is the powers come from the same fictional source, function in the same ways, and presumably should look the same. This is somewhat true of patron powers as well, where the powers are boons granted by a particular patron and aren't really a power of the player character. We haven't made any firm decisions to do or not do customization for Epic Archetypes or patron powers. Ancillary powers is perfectly reasonable, but we wouldn't be able to do those without doing patron powers at the same time...even though we hate villains. |
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
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Fact of the matter is, from all the posts I've read so far, there's no scenario or stage in the process where everything syncs up and there's an indisputable answer on why customization shouldn't be possible. It's just not worth trying to limit it based on canon, because the canon just doesn't make sense, and there's no point trying to make it make sense.|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I can see allowing Patron powers to be customized without breaking immersion...
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If powers are uncustomizable because the powers belong to someone else, why can't they take them away from you when you act up, and why can we slot them to our own needs? If they become your powers, just taught to you by a trainer like a karate move, why can't you add your own flair and make the ability your own? If we're supposed to be uniform and do everything in the same way because we're minions of Arachnos, why can we pick our powers, and why do VEATs have the ability to customize their costumes? If powers just are how they are, why can you respec out of them into another patron you've never even spoken to? None of it fully makes sense, and there's no use trying to force it.
The PPP respec was a non-canon decision done for player benefit and doesn't need to be explained other than "We compromised to make players happy." This is the same situation.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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As VEATS we use powers given to us by the same source (paraphrasing).
Ok.
Fine.
Say im a Crab and when I graduate *cough*survive*cough* I get the Backpack.
AWESOME, now pass me that screwdriver, im going to use my Natural talent and tweak it, so now my energy blasts are purple/blue/white/gold/etc...
My pets that I summon (not sure "where" they come from, Spiders dropping from the air???) but they are MY PETS. They represent me and like all good employees they should wear a uniform of my design, limited though it may be.
Or my Fortunata. I have reached a level of mental power that makes mere mortals tremble.
I am so powerful I can make my enemies attack their friends.
I am so powerful I can send you flying backwards with my mind.
I am so powerful that my mental attacks MUST be purple/pink... huh???
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I have asked ingame about this and have received by many people that a reason is that a lot of VEAT powers are duplicates of other AT powers... Yeah and...?
Blaster(Pri)/Corruptor(Pri)/Dom(Sec) powers that are shared are the same (numbers are diff but thats not what we are talking about) and they can be customised.
Just say that (V)EAT/APP/PPP power customisation will be done after GR is done and before the next Issue Release (or with the next Issue Release) and most people will be happy. Until you ask a Mastermind...
Ligh sabers from Star Wars come to mind.
Last time I watched the movie everyone had a different color, yet they were all light sabers.
BaBs, if nothing else, would it be possible to slip in a "No FX" option for Indomitable Will on Widows? I personally find it hideous and completely ruins the look.
GV
The fact is, VEAT weapons are ALREADY customizable. And they can be any color we choose. Widow claws can be bright pink, Arachnos machine guns can be white with lime green trim, Crab Spider arms can be bright red and yellow. There is no limitation in the character editor that says, "You are using Arachnos supplied equipment, it must be a canon color and appearance". There are limited options, I think there's only one choice for claws, but there are at least three for machine guns, and I see no reason why Babs can't add more options, some just variations on the Arachnos theme, some more generic for use with the "civilian" costumes.
On the one hand, this makes the argument that the blast effects have to be a canon color less tenable. If machine guns can be lavender, why can't psychic blasts? On the other hand, it brings up an obvious engine limitation, you can have EITHER your weapon OR your weapon effects tinted. You can't have both. We established that with Spines, and BaBs has confirmed it for Claws, Shields, and the other existing weapon sets.
So unfortunately, this means that Wolf Spiders, Crab Spiders, Bane Spiders, Blood Widows and Night Widows can't have their Primary powers tinted. You can change your Arachnos gun to have a number of different appearances, but the bullets it fires and the impact effects it has cannot change appearance or color. That leaves Fortunata Blasts, and the aura powers of the Secondary, like Mind Link, Fortification, and the Leadership clones.
That being said, I do think those powers and those of Kheldians should be modifiable. If it better fits the canon for there to be limited choices, like for Widow Claws or Soldier Machine Guns, fine. Limit Peacebringers to light colors and Warshades to dark, just like Ice Armor is limited to saturated shades, and Earth is limited to earth tones. I personally wouldn't limit Fortunatas at all, but if you want to restrict them to reds, pinks, and lavenders, okay. Customization is not about being able to pick a wildly contrasting color from the standard, after all, it's about being able to VARY from the standard. A subtle change in shade can be enough to make a character unique.
The same logic applies to Patron Powers as well. If I have a selection of Maces to choose from, then why should I not be given a choice of Mu lightning variants? Because Black Scorpion can adapt his technology at will, but the Mu Adepts can't alter their spells? Is that canon, or is that just an assumption based on the graphics?
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I thought that, too - but at the same time, thought "What would be fair? Give Heroes "mentors" (patrons) that can't be changed, give villains APPs that can." That way both sides have RP-can't-be-changed options and generic-power-can-be options. |
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
Am I the only one who read the above and said, "Hmmm, makes enough sense to me" and moved on? The Devs can pretty much do whatever they want to do.
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| Then again, I am also the guy who doesn't think that Dark should be customizable because dark is dark, and not white, etc... or Fire for that matter, because, well, in general it is FIRE colored... or... well, you get the idea. |
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I think that would be a good idea as well. And fit in nicely with Going Rogue. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Give Heroes "mentors" (patrons) that can't be changed, give villains APPs that can." That way both sides have RP-can't-be-changed options and generic-power-can-be options.
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Although as mentioned elsewhere, losing access to Patrons because you're now on "the other side" brings up new issues. If you can't change a power because it's connected to the canon Patrons, though, then that would suggest you should lose it if you lose your connection to the Patrons. Logic is logic.
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I believe the only thing connected to the patrons (not having seen that mention) is the badge, now. You can, after all, respec from one patron pool to another (or none at all) as of - well, a few issues ago.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I think that would be a good idea as well. And fit in nicely with Going Rogue.
Although as mentioned elsewhere, losing access to Patrons because you're now on "the other side" brings up new issues. If you can't change a power because it's connected to the canon Patrons, though, then that would suggest you should lose it if you lose your connection to the Patrons. Logic is logic. |
And really, losing access to the powers wouldn't make sense. I mean, if I learned (say) how to bleed a brake system from my neighbor, and a year later I get into a bad argument and never speak to that neighbor again, or they move and I don't know how to get ahold of them any more - I don't forget how to bleed a brake system.
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The dev argument seems to be that it's more like you borrowed a rake from your neighbor. If you get into an argument, the neighbor would demand the rake back. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And really, losing access to the powers wouldn't make sense. I mean, if I learned (say) how to bleed a brake system from my neighbor, and a year later I get into a bad argument and never speak to that neighbor again, or they move and I don't know how to get ahold of them any more - I don't forget how to bleed a brake system.
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If it's your rake, or your car's brake system, then you can modify it however you want. (Unless you own the same kind of car as your neighbor, your brake system isn't exactly like his anyway) The powers come from the Patron, therefore they must look the same as if they were used by that Patron.
And yes, I do think that's inconsistent with being able to choose from any Patron Pool after doing just the one arc. I'm not writing this game, so I'm not making the rules.
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Which is part of what this hinges on. Are your powers *coming from* your patron, or just taught *by* them? Mako's arc, as I recall, has him going after the "power of the leviathan," hinting it's external to him. Scirocco doesn't teach you *his* powers, but opens up the powers of the Mu. Black Scorpion gives you technology - in most instances, you're even weilding a mace... without a long extension cord to Mako's armor. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The dev argument seems to be that it's more like you borrowed a rake from your neighbor. If you get into an argument, the neighbor would demand the rake back.
If it's your rake, or your car's brake system, then you can modify it however you want. (Unless you own the same kind of car as your neighbor, your brake system isn't exactly like his anyway) The powers come from the Patron, therefore they must look the same as if they were used by that Patron. |
Which is why I tend to stand on "You're learning, not borrowing."
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And yes, I do think that's inconsistent with being able to choose from any Patron Pool after doing just the one arc. I'm not writing this game, so I'm not making the rules.
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Now, if you need an RP reason - by the time you're done with your patron (45-46, if you do the destiny arc right away,) you've not only defeated a patron of equal power to the others, but you've spanked Recluse, quite literally handing him his head. You've got the standing to walk up to another one and say "Hey, shorty, tell me what you know" and the strength to back it up.
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I've done the same thing with my Corruptor - he's supposed to be a brooding sorcerer with primarily darkness-based spells but a few in other elements, and wouldn't you know it, but Moonbeam in pale yellow or pale purple makes quite a respectable lightning bolt, and Night Fall colored yellow and red produces some lovely hellfire (still working out the best way to get some Cold action in on this - so far the best I've come up with is making Tar Patch look as much like snow as I can). Without power coloring, I wouldn't have had any way to represent his knowing such spells. Most of his less-altered powers have also been made darker, since I didn't like the greenish tinge that most of them had before. Oh, and I did the same green-to-red switch on the healing that Dispari did, for the same reasons. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
-Wonderful long post about Dark power color customization-
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Granted, this is more apropos to apply to APPs than PPPs and EATs, but still...
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Maybe some people like those blobs because the option is there?
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Originally Posted by macskull
...I can change it to whatever I want, because that option is there....
...Only problem I really have with color customization is how some people have managed to change the FF and Sonic bubbles into seizure-inducing blobs. |
Twilight Grasp's colors include the green tint of healing. And Howling Twilight has a green tint as well. Darkest Night shows in different shades to allow the debuff anchor to be identifiable.
First off, dark powers are widely represented by others colors beyond black. Especially when you're dealing with "from the netherworld" explanations like CoH uses. They don't have to be pure black. Darkness and evilness is often represented by dark blues and dark purples. As such, a baseline for my powers is black/purple. Rather than the weak gray shading, the black blends into a dark purple. This retains the "dark miasma" aspect of the powers while simultaneously giving me a more unique flair than the standard visuals of the set.
Now, Twilight Grasp and Howling Twilight I recolored. They no longer have a green healing effect. They're black/red. Both powers siphon energy out of foes to do what they do. The explanation on both powers shows that you weaken enemies and transfer that power into your allies. I'd rather a red blood flow in vampiric magic fashion than a green video-game-style "healing" glow. The result is the dark magic circles around my foes and then a bloody red glow shows around the people being healed and resurrected.
Darkest Night is my favorite recolor. The power indicates that you channel negative energy into a foe, which weakens them. Now, what would it do? What would happen if you inject someone with dark magic? And it would result in them being physically weaker. My take, poison and sickness. The power works like a toxin and infects the body, weakening the immune system and the senses. I recolored the power to black/green to indicate the sickness and death that the power carries. It also serves as a handy indicator of the anchor, because it's my only green power.
Now, every one of those recolors fits into your narrow view of what Dark Miasma is "supposed" to be. And every one of those changes keeps the spirit and origin of the set completely in tact and unmolested. My recolors were to give my character more of a personality and an ability to stand out while using the same set. The options need to remain there, because there will always be some bright, creative person who can justify making fire green and purple, green electricity, purple plants, or red super strength. In fact, I give those examples because I have toons with all of those recolors.
Personally, I'm annoyed with everyone just changing their powers to black and thinking that's cool. I'm pretty tired of seeing black willpower, black fire, black forcefields, black energy, and black super strength. But it's not my place to limit the imagination of other players, even if they can't "justify" it. Because this is just a game, and it's for fun. Things don't have to make sense, they just have to be fun.
Now, I think it would be awfully selfish of me to try and limit someone else's use of colors on another set just because I can't imagine it being a different color. Even if they can't explain or don't bother trying to explain, it's the player's choice whether they want to recolor, and frankly, whether they even CARE that it makes sense for them to recolor it. To quote a lovely signature here on the forums, if you're having fun, you're doing it right.