Did you do a search at all on vehicles? There are a number of problems that come up with them, and not just the issue of them being used in missions or not.
How would you handle any other powers with them? Attacks? Defenses? Other travel powers? Strafing? Clipping with buildings? Going off road? Up smaller spaces than the vehicle appears, such as staircases and fire escapes?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Did you do a search at all on vehicles? There are a number of problems that come up with them, and not just the issue of them being used in missions or not.
How would you handle any other powers with them? Attacks? Defenses? Other travel powers? Strafing? Clipping with buildings? Going off road? Up smaller spaces than the vehicle appears, such as staircases and fire escapes? |
I didnt say it was slam-dunk easy. If that was the case, we would probably already have this in-game. What I am suggesting is NOT a travel power per-se, but a means of travel in the greater city areas.
But let me take a stab at your other issues.
Attacks: You are in a vehicle, so no attacks unless you dismount (for lack of a better word)
Defenses: You vehicle should have PFF level protection while travelling.
Other Travel powers: Suppressed while in a vehicle
Strafing: This is actually a cool problem to solve. Imagine what kinds of animations you could cook up for strafing. Motorcycle leans into a turn. Jet banking etc...
Clipping: Come on, dont these games all use collision calculation. You would just be BIGGER in a vehicle. Which means there are places you couldnt go. Motorcycles dont go up small stairwells or jets flying through small underpasses. Might seem like alot of issues, but the issues are not any different than real-world are they ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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The clipping doesn't seem to care how big you are, this is why huge models go through door frames if they hit it right.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I didnt say it was slam-dunk easy. If that was the case, we would probably already have this in-game. What I am suggesting is NOT a travel power per-se, but a means of travel in the greater city areas.
But let me take a stab at your other issues. Attacks: You are in a vehicle, so no attacks unless you dismount (for lack of a better word) Defenses: You vehicle should have PFF level protection while travelling. Other Travel powers: Suppressed while in a vehicle Strafing: This is actually a cool problem to solve. Imagine what kinds of animations you could cook up for strafing. Motorcycle leans into a turn. Jet banking etc... Clipping: Come on, dont these games all use collision calculation. You would just be BIGGER in a vehicle. Which means there are places you couldnt go. Motorcycles dont go up small stairwells or jets flying through small underpasses. Might seem like alot of issues, but the issues are not any different than real-world are they ? |
This is on BaBs list of things to do when if he gets sent to Hell.
I.E. As unlikely to happen as for Jack Emmert to not screw up an MMO.
That'll be a no then 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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i looked but couldn't find M_B's cut and paste on why vehicles would never work in this game but i do give a big HELL NO to this idea. vehicles will not be as useful as you think. also learn to search before posting.
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Here ya go Shark. |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i looked but couldn't find M_B's cut and paste on why vehicles would never work in this game but i do give a big HELL NO to this idea. vehicles will not be as useful as you think. also learn to search before posting.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Disclaimer
Yes. This is a cut and paste reply that I keep handy, as well as a quick bit of instruction on how to search. Neither are meant to cause fights or to be insulting. The search instructions are in, not just because forum rules say flat out to search, but to help you and anyone else reading this use the search tool effectively.
The body of the cut and paste reply is the way it is because we've seen these arguments numerous times before. They're a summary of the salient points that come up each time. They are not here to insult you, make you feel stupid or otherwise "bring you down a peg." Instead, they are meant as instruction and information. Please read through the points and the explanation behind them to see the issues that are commonly brought up in response. They may not always match your suggestion 100% - in fact, you may have explained around one or two of them - but they're there for consideration and refinement of your idea.
Yes, I do look forward to the time, with some of these suggestions, that someone not only addresses all the points, but does so exceptionally well. It'll probably be added to the end of the cut/paste reply, with credit. For now, though, read and consider the points. They really are just there to help you, and move discussion along to help ideas evolve.
If you're going to see this and say an "evil forum vet is just shooting down your idea," or "You think you're the last word because of your post count," you're wrong. Heck, if you say the second, you've just worried more about my post count than I have in the last four plus years. Tongue-in-cheek comments in here are meant as humor, not put downs.
Searching Effectively
1. Click on "Search" up at the top of the forum.
2. On the left, under "Forum(s) to search," select "Suggestions and ideas."
3. On the right, Keyword Search Terms. This is probably where your problem was if you did search. Try the following, exactly as typed:
+vehicle -"re: "
This will search for anything with the string "vehicle" in the title.The -re: portion of it removes replies, so you'll see the root of every thread that comes up, letting you see just how many threads there are on this. (The last helps for other subjects, as well.)
Be sure to put the space between the colon and last quote.
4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.
5. Leave Username Search blank.
6. Date range, Newer Than, change the 1 to a 3, and the time to Months.
7. Result format doesn't matter. Click on "Submit."
The subject at hand: Vehicles.
Vehicles as travel powers. This gets brought up a lot.
Short answer, don't expect it.
Long answer:
There are a lot of problems with the idea.
1. Movement.
Forward and back,even turning - ok. But you can do things that a vehicle can't - such as strafe (direct side to side or angular movement.) It doesn't work with a vehicle. There are also issues such as drift and "realistic" handling. We can go side to side, as mentioned, and make immediate right angle turns. Cars... not so much.
2. Movement, part 2.
Go stand in the road. No, not you personally. Take your character out and stand in the road, if you're heroside. Or even in the path of civilians. What happens? You get pushed. While not as big an issue with a motorcycle, perhaps, a car would have issues. What happens if two cars meet head on - yours and an NPC, or yours and another player's? Do you just pass through each other? Would you be satisfied with that very odd result? Or would you get stuck? How about those NPCs, can they walk and push your car, or are they walking through it? Neither answer is very satisfying, and intelligent, dynamic pathing is too computationally expensive.
3. Terrain.
Not every place has roads, or even makes sense for "off roading." Go look at Founder's Falls. Go look at Crey's Folley. Or Eden. Try to get to the north islands in Talos. What, do you have a kubelwagen? Look at the Pit in Sharkshead. Try to use your travel power (car) to get up to some of the doorways in high caves. Cars and motorcycles would be more like Superspeed - horizontal movement, period. And look - I'll be blunt - flat out *stupid* tied with, say, Combat Jumping or Superjump.
4. Combat.
You get ambushed on the way. How do you fight? Just have your powers blast out of the rolled up windows? How do you buff or debuff? EVERY power would need a new animation. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Then you want people with motorcycles instead of cars. Redo ALL the animations AGAIN. And they still wouldn't make sense - how do you use Footstomp in a car? Or Stalagmites?
5. Customizing.
Yeah, it would come up. Not everyone would want a sports car, or a mid-70s Buick boat, or an exotic, or a minivan, or whatever else.
6. Making "sense."
This was touched on in terrain - how do you get across water? How about the Shadow Shard? And if you want downright ridiculous looking, go do the heroside 25-34 Respec. Look at the Sky Skiffs inside of rooms or the reactor room. It makes no sense and looks *ridiculous.* Something that, yes, the devs try to avoid.
That's just a quick overview of why vehicles as generally envisioned aren't a spectacular idea for a travel power.
Further discussion
This I think merits a bit of extra commentary, honestly.
"Vehicles" covers a lot of different ground for different people. Some only consider cars/jets/motorcycles vehicles. Others add jetpacks, wings and the like. Much of the above considers cars and similar sized vehicles, with nods to motorcycle type vehicles.
Jetpacks and such, I don't see happening as travel powers. As costume options for Flight? Or as invented pieces that interact with Fly, similar to wings? Absolutely - but they don't need to be a separate travel power for that. I'm all for more jetpack and wing (or combination) designs. Besides, there are so many "temp" jetpacks, I don't see introducing yet another one as really being feasable - just my opinion.
But vehicles - cars, specifically - as a travel power, have issues.
One way to have them "somewhat" work.
For all that, I know some people *would* still like to pull up in front of a mission. So how do we do it?
A temporary power, based on the same tech from the Mac/Valkyrie pack Mission Teleporter. The temporary power would:
(a) be an invention - dropping from enemies. (A reward, because you saved... well, we'll get to that,)
(b) be a single use each time - you can only hold one at a time, not one of each, one total.
(c) use rarely used salvage, because... it's rarely used, and cheap. No Luck Charms here.
(d) come in multiple varieties.
How does this get around the various issues?
Terrain - It doesn't pass terrain. It just arrives.
It follows the same 'rules' as the mission teleporter - it's not indoors, doesn't go to contacts, etc. Just mission doors.
Customizing - It's not "your" vehicle. It's a temp power. You've called a cab, limo, or other transport.
Power animation - since you're skipping the space in between, no powers can be used 'til you arrive anyway.
The varieties?
- Limo: Stereotypical slightly stretched black limo.
- Checker cab: The classic yellow cab.
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Since they're the same issues that turned a Growth powerset from an item on a company sponsored poll of potential powersets to "we see you guys really want Growth, we'll work on it" to "still working on it, turns out redoing a ton of animations for Shields was easier, so have that first" to "sorry can't be done with our current system, I wouldn't expect much.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Clipping: Come on, dont these games all use collision calculation. You would just be BIGGER in a vehicle. Which means there are places you couldnt go. Motorcycles dont go up small stairwells or jets flying through small underpasses. Might seem like alot of issues, but the issues are not any different than real-world are they ?
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In short, there's a reason we don't have many large combatable objects in this game, and when we do they're often cheated instead of given true collision detection. It's not as small of a deal as you think.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I love the idea, but it sounds like it is impossible.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I would really like to see the introduction of Vehicles into the city streets of Paragon.
It would not matter if they could only be used outside of missions, but havent you ever wanted a Motorcycle for one of your characters? Or a Flying vehicle ? Heck a Jet that would grant the power of moving an entire team would be cool too. |
Vehicles are certainly one of the holy grails for the game, though I would strongly resist making them vet rewards. Their appeal is far too widespread to limit them to those of us with umpty months of subscription time.
If they ever resolve the engine issues that, for now, seem to preclude vehicles, a more accessible form of the feature would seem far better advised. A micropay package would not dismay me, a function on maintaining vehicles (especially those like a carrier for the whole team, which I think is a super idea) like base rental would not horrify me either. Vehicles that take a power choice (as "built in" travel powers do) would be fine by me as well.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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I agree with this only if they are ridiculous. Unicycles and clown cars...
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I would really like to see the introduction of Vehicles into the city streets of Paragon.
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Please fight My Brute: http://2hero.mybrute.com
Mission Architect 54161 - Michael Mundano, Megan Malloney and the Secret Senate.
Mission Architect 91838 - Constantinople Jones' Family Secret. A One Mission Story arc.
Does no one read the Frequent Suggestions thread or even previous posts anymore? >.>
This has been asked for many a-time and shot down each time for a variety of technical reasons.
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I'm just posting to say I find this phrasing amusing.
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Originally Posted by BBhumeBB
If they ever resolve the engine issues that, for now, seem to preclude vehicles,...
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I myself am hoping they make it work with the Stanley Steamer design.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm just posting to say I find this phrasing amusing.
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"Steam! Steam will save mankind!" - Ninja High School
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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All the more reason to keep raising the question so that the vendor remains motivated to find a solution.
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Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
Does no one read the Frequent Suggestions thread or even previous posts anymore? >.>
This has been asked for many a-time and shot down each time for a variety of technical reasons. |
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Raising the same question over and over again does not necessarily "motivate the vendor" to do anything. Should I keep complaining to my bank and the ATM manufacturer that I can't play classic Battlezone on their ATM? It's likely possible - simple screen, it's got a computer built in, buttons that can take left and right (and fire) input, so why shouldn't they do it if I keep nagging them? The program itself is ancient, and probably wouldn't take more than a few kb of space. |
Originally Posted by BBhumeBB
All the more reason to keep raising the question so that the vendor remains motivated to find a solution.
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So I should keep nagging them about this, right? Keeping the vendor motivated and all that?
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Uhm . . . Yes? |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Raising the same question over and over again does not necessarily "motivate the vendor" to do anything. Should I keep complaining to my bank and the ATM manufacturer that I can't play classic Battlezone on their ATM? It's likely possible - simple screen, it's got a computer built in, buttons that can take left and right (and fire) input, so why shouldn't they do it if I keep nagging them? The program itself is ancient, and probably wouldn't take more than a few kb of space.
So I should keep nagging them about this, right? Keeping the vendor motivated and all that? |
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Woah, flashbacks to the Goosebumps PC game.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Raising the same question over and over again does not necessarily "motivate the vendor" to do anything. Should I keep complaining to my bank and the ATM manufacturer that I can't play classic Battlezone on their ATM? It's likely possible - simple screen, it's got a computer built in, buttons that can take left and right (and fire) input, so why shouldn't they do it if I keep nagging them? The program itself is ancient, and probably wouldn't take more than a few kb of space.
So I should keep nagging them about this, right? Keeping the vendor motivated and all that? |
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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... I really wish I had come up with this analogy for some of the other "oft-requested" brain-dead suggestions being made. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Raising the same question over and over again does not necessarily "motivate the vendor" to do anything. Should I keep complaining to my bank and the ATM manufacturer that I can't play classic Battlezone on their ATM? It's likely possible - simple screen, it's got a computer built in, buttons that can take left and right (and fire) input, so why shouldn't they do it if I keep nagging them? The program itself is ancient, and probably wouldn't take more than a few kb of space.
So I should keep nagging them about this, right? Keeping the vendor motivated and all that? |
*gives MB some catnip cookies*
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Sure, if you feel this function is essential/important.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Raising the same question over and over again does not necessarily "motivate the vendor" to do anything. Should I keep complaining to my bank and the ATM manufacturer that I can't play classic Battlezone on their ATM? ...
So I should keep nagging them about this, right? Keeping the vendor motivated and all that? |
However leaving aside the merits of the two suggestions relative to the product offerings (vehicles in CoX vs computer games on your ATM), you would be one customer making the same request over and over. I must suggest that this is a different marketing environment from many customers independently making the same request over and over.
Which is why I take issue with attempts to pre-emptively tell users not to raise suggestions that have not been accepted in earlier discussions. If one person were making the same suggestion over and over, I agree that would be tedious (as indeed it has been when some users get on a hobby horse about something) - but that is not the case here.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Pity is it a flawed analogy.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
... I really wish I had come up with this analogy for some of the other "oft-requested" brain-dead suggestions being made.
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My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
Ah - from the anonymous peanut gallery:
"there's a difference between "motivate" and "deliberatly ticking off" This suggestion falls on the side of "deliberatly ticking off""
I have always been fascinated by the customers of this product who are so terrified of, or solicitous for, the vendor that they will vigorously oppose other customers who have a more adversarial relationship with the vendor.
As far as different evaluations of the worth of this (or any) suggestion, we all bring those judgements to the table. I gather that supporting a suggestion, or even the customer's right to make a suggestion, is "ticking off the vendor" in my anonymous correspondent's opinion. I may oppose some suggestions myself, some nearly reflexively - server merges come to mind. But one opposes a position, not the right of the poster to even state that position, because it has been "dealt with" before. Or because it might tick off the vendor.
My apologies for getting involved enough to threadjack the actual discussion by going meta on it. I've said my say, this time anyway :-)
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
Great thread! I really want Tetris on my bank's ATMs!
@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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The flip side of that, of course, is that having people read the prior discussions (part of the reason for the cut-and-paste answers that I don't even have to be *on* for someone to post any more |
Originally Posted by BBhumeBB
Which is why I take issue with attempts to pre-emptively tell users not to raise suggestions that have not been accepted in earlier discussions. If one person were making the same suggestion over and over, I agree that would be tedious (as indeed it has been when some users get on a hobby horse about something) - but that is not the case here.
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) means they'd see the issues with the idea (as opposed to having it come as some great revelation... yet again.) "I don't care" tends not to be a very good argument - either "I don't care about the problems," or "add all these limitations, fine, so I can use it for two minutes every three hours when they're all met." The more limits you put on, the less likely it is that either it'd be used, or it'd get done at all. Sure, there'd be some new-shiny-ness, but then - in the case of vehicles, just with this thread - "I can't use it indoors? I can't fight from it? I can't this, that, the other? Why did I take this again?"
I'm just going to point to the bottom of the cut-paste response and say, if you ever see vehicles in game, that'd be the most likely way to see it.
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The fact that you really think this, and you that you don't actually get the arguments and points being made... actually scares me.
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Originally Posted by BBhumeBB
Pity is it a flawed analogy.
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I would really like to see the introduction of Vehicles into the city streets of Paragon.
It would not matter if they could only be used outside of missions, but havent you ever wanted a Motorcycle for one of your characters? Or a Flying vehicle ?
Heck a Jet that would grant the power of moving an entire team would be cool too.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF