Question for those new to Kheldians.

I think I've deleted... one. And that was due to RP reasons, essentially (and wanting the slot to continue another PB from another server - chapter 1's on virtue, chapter 2's on victory - and 50.)

I'm obviously not new to them but the reasons I tend to hear (playstyle conflicts aside) can generally be summed up as either incorrect assumptions ("Epic = godmode,") or trying to play them as something they're not. You wouldn't typically try to play a tank as a blaster - but people will complain that the Kheld isn't "as good of a blaster as a real blaster" or "as good of a tank as a real tank." To which my reaction tends to be, "well, duh. They're Kheldians, not (insert AT here.)"

Also, honestly, I tend to think people overhype the "danger" of Quantums, Voids, and Cysts. Yes, they used to hit Khelds MUCH harder, but that got changed some time ago - they're outright wimps now. (Of course, my Khelds have always tended to hunt them to begin with, and get almost offended if they're not the ones that get to kill them.) But people don't seem to recall that. They're basically nothing but extra XP - nothing to hide from, and if the team's still "Kheld-tagged," well, enjoy the extra mob, chance for a drop, etc.

See my Guides and Tutorials

"So what's 'Epic' about Kheldians?"

Two things, Grasshopper.

1. The skill to plan a build for them in Mids'.
2. The skill level required to play one in any team size from 1 to 8.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Average performance is too low for the amount of work required. I've deleted 3 lvl 20-something PBs because of this. I made a Warshade as a lark and was very surprised at how effective and fun he is compared to the PBs.

Strange.... Epic DOES = Godmode for me...

"Alien"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

Godmode can handle bosses in +4/x8 spawns and get through said spawns without burning an entire loadout of insps.



/sorry, man, couldn't help myself.

Further edit:

I have another peacebringer now. I ran it from 1 to 17 as a human only. It was painful. It truly was VERY similar to playing a defender solo. I STILL haven't pushed my difficulty above +0/x2.

At 17, I got fed up enough to crank up the second build with Bright Nova. Obviously it helped a lot, but it immediately showed off the second failure of kheldians. Tray swapping, form dropping keybind flakiness. Nothing quite as hairpullingly bothersome than having to doubletap a key enough to actually get the drop to human shift to occur WITH the tray swap but not tap the key enough that powexectoggleoff bright nova somehow causes nova form to turn back on.

Quite the damned if you do damned if you don't scenario there.

So I got to 18 and grabbed inca strike. Great power, of course, but as expected, a huge end sucker. I'm now lucky if I can get through a spawn with 2 +1 LTs and a +1 minion, which seems to be the non-council spawn config at +0/x2, and find myself out of end AND health.

Of course, as with many AT combos, a big change happens at lvl 22. SOs make a helluva lot of difference in a build. And I'll get access to the PBs true heal rather than the near useless dull pain clone. (Why near useless? Recharge is far too long to consider it an actual heal and PB base HP is low enough that the HP buff hardly matters before SOs.)

"Bill, why the hell do you keep playing something that you find so painfully inferior? Didn't you already deleted a level 50 PB? Didn't you delete that same PB at 30? Why the masochism, dude?"

Claws/SR used to suck as well. Now it doesn't. I thought I was done. I thought I was going to give up on seeing PBs fixed. Instead, now having finally experienced the AT without that mind-wrenching, migraine inducing PB Whining Sound FX of Doom (yay silence.ogg) I want the AT fixed. I plan to see it fixed before my time here is done.

Course, that gives me several years of harassing Castle to go.

Technically, "godmode" is getting through said mob without a single health point tick, but since the "godmode" in the context of this thread is entirely different than that, I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in...

When it really comes down to it, there are only a few ATs that can handle those difficulty settings (namely a select few scrapper secondaries, kinetic controllers, and tanks of course).

If that is the "bar" by which we're measuring Kheldians, then why don't we use the same bar on, say.... Anything else? How about my purpled out SR scrapper? He wouldn't be able to handle that. Does that mean SR is a "failure"? Hell no. Does that mean the Defender AT is a failure?

It sounds as if this is leading to a "what is a Kheldian's role?" discussion. For some reason, it always comes down to a Kheldian being compared to a scrapper. A Kheldian is NOT a scrapper, and shouldn't be expected to play on the same playing field.

Personally, I believe the "role" (if you want to call it that) of a Kheldian is to "adapt and overcome." Now, take that how you want to, but to me, "adapting and overcoming" can mean anything from filling a gap in a PuG that's needed (for example, just last night the tank dropped while fighting Ghost Widow on the STF... This has happened more than twice to me... I immediately drop to dwarf form and "filled the hole," and had absolutely no problems doing so), to being able to solo, to providing some extra damage.

Is a Kheldian a Blaster? No. A Blaster is a Blaster.

Is a Kheldian a Scrapper? No. A Scrapper is a Scrapper.

Is a Kheldian a Defender? No. A Defender is a Defender.

Is a Kheldian a Controller? No. A Controller is a Controller.

Etc., etc., etc...

In the end, a Kheldian is...... A friggin' Kheldian.

Either you love it or you hate it. You can build it several different ways and still be effective, but don't expect it to be a Scrapper, a Blaster, a Corrupter, a Brute, or whatever other AT there is. It's a Kheldian. Don't try to make it be something it's not.

That said... If you're used to playing a Blaster (like I started out) or a Defender, then playing a Kheldian can seem like "godmode" when it comes to surviveability. If you're used to playing a specific kind of scrapper or tank 2ndary, then a Kheldian may seem "gimped" to you, due to lack of mez protection.

In short, playing my Kheldian feels like "godmode." Playing my SR or SD scrapper? Not so much. They're still fun (I'm very much a "scrapper" kind of guy), but still don't seem to compare to VestigeOne.

"Alien"

*EDIT*
Now that I think about it, several tanks may not be able to handle that difficulty setting, due to their lack of damage and the amount of time it would take to bring down that size/level of mob--they might be forever locked in the same mob, neither going down nor taking said mob down... Depends on what you're playing, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

Actually, while I do find it painful, my claws/sr scrapper CAN handle +4/x8 arachnos with bosses.

Do I think that is the level of performance that all ATs should perform at? Of Course Not.

That's actually not what I'm talking about at all.

What I AM talking about is that we are dealing with an AT that does NOT have massive buffs/debuffs like defenders do. It does NOT have massive control like controllers. It does NOT have massive HP and aggro control like tanks.

Yet many of the pro-kheldian side of this several year old discussion state that we shouldn't deal with kheldians as other ATs because they are a team based AT and thus their general weakness solo is acceptable in the same way that it is so for defenders and tanks.

This of course stems from the leech-based inherent. And that inherent will be at the core of my arguments for change.

The kheldian is a damage based archetype with weak damage output while in the human form. This weak damage output can be made up for with the use of the nova form but at the cost of the vast majority of the human form damage mitigation. The human form by itself has considerable mitigation to back its blasts and punches, but no real aggro control. Thus the dwarf form which gives up any worthwhile damage output for mitigation and aggro control.

Course, not everyone can tolerate the clunky and barely functional form shifting, not every enjoys using a mouse to click on powers due to its inefficiency, and quite a few people dislike the forms due to the overall sameness with every other kheldian.

So what to do? Until recently, the inherent did not function in the forms. That change took place because the powers that be felt that the AT deserved some change.

It is my belief that this particular change was only partially correct. I aim to show that the kheldian inherent should have been nerfed prior to allowing it to function in the forms. This nerf should have occurred so that human form AT damage modifiers could be raised.

I actually agree that there are some changes that could be made to the Kheldian archetype--however, the Kheldian community as a whole can't seem to agree on exactly what those changes are... Mainly because we all play our Kheldians differently, and therefore have completely different views on what changes are most important to us.

A tri-former has no interest in adding a mez protection for the human form, because he already has a form of mez protection. However, other changes may appeal to them (such as getting mezzed a 2nd time not interrupting a form change), whereas I have no interest in that change, since that's not how I play--but a mez protection "option" for human-formers would GREATLY appeal to me.

All that said, I do have to point this out:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba What I AM talking about is that we are dealing with an AT that does NOT have massive buffs/debuffs like defenders do. It does NOT have massive control like controllers. It does NOT have massive HP and aggro control like tanks.

Again, Kheldians are not like Defenders, Controllers, or Tanks. They may have some "similar" capabilities, but they simply aren't those archetypes. I would guess that the Dev's argument would be if you want to have a massive buff or debuff, then play a Defender. If you want massive control, then play a Controller. If you want massive HP/Aggro, then play a tank. That's what those ATs are supposed to do. That isn't *necessarily* what a Kheldian is supposed to do.

I still don't understand how someone could look at a maxxed out scrapper's capabilities and then say "why can't a Kheldian do that?"...

... Makes me want to say, "Because it isn't a scrapper?"



"Alien"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

AlienOne,

I feel like you completely ignored my post and didn't follow the one bit you quoted.

I know khels aren't defenders. They have no worthwhile buff/debuff capabilities.
I know khels aren't controllers. They have no worthwhile control.
I know khels aren't tanks. They have no worthwhile aggro controls.
I know khels aren't scrappers. They can't pull off the crap scrappers can.

I don't want khels to be defenders, nor controllers, nor tanks, nor scrappers.

I want them to be what they are and not suck at it. And they do suck at it when you choose to skip the forms. The reason so many choose to do so have been covered in great detail in this and many other threads.

You stated it yourself: The problem is what is the role?

The powers granted to the kheldian AT dictate its role. And what powers does it have? Damage attacks. What does the peacebringer have that is NOT damage? A heal other and a single pbaoe disorient.

The Human Peacebringer's ONLY role is damage. And it does it VERY poorly. A defender has poor damage due to having a buff/debuff primary. A controller should have poor damage due to not having a damage primary or secondary, but they gave them containment on TOP of already having massive control. A tank has piddly damage due to its primary being mitigation and aggro control.

The REASON that kheldians in general and peacebringers specifically are compared to scrappers and blasters, the kheldian is a DAMAGE primary archetype.

Yet it does defender level damage. It is NOT a support AT, so why is it doing support AT damage? Because of the ridiculously designed inherent. The leech inherent.

The useless while solo inherent.

If you're going to call an AT a teambased AT, its powers should go with that description. The ONLY thing about khels that is team based IS the inherent. everything else screams "crossbreed of a scrapper and a blaster." Ranged blasts, melee attacks, dam-res shields, self-heals.

And yet we have the following:
Khel Melee Damage Mod: 41.708 That's the same as a brute. Less than a tank. And khels don't get fury or an 850% damage cap.
Khel Range Damage Mod: 34.756 That's less than a defender.

Do I think that khels should have scrapper or blaster damage mods? Absolutely Not.

Scrappers don't have boatloads of ranged attacks nor do blasters have a mitigation secondary.

I think that the human form kheldian should have the same damage modifiers that VEATs get. 55.610 for both melee and range. To balance this out against the inherent, the damage buff drops from 20% per appropriate teammate to 5%.

I'm not disagreeing with your proposed changes. Any buff is just a plus to me.

What I was doing is pointing out that any statement that says "like a Defender" or "like a Blaster" or "like a Scrapper" or "as good as insert AT here" only further suggests that Kheldians *should* be compared to or *are* being compared to the other ATs--as if they are comparable, which (I think we've both agreed) they are not.

The ONLY people who *claim* that their Kheldian has reached the "amazing" damage point (if that is indeed what you're going for with the AT--some people don't) are the people who have invested a significant amount of influence, time, binds, testing, etc., etc. into them. Other ATs (like the Scrapper) do amazing things right out of the bag.

With Kheldians, you gotta work towards that. Which, if anyone thinks about it, *shouldn't* really be a "reward" for getting your first toon to 50.

"Alien"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

Comparisons *should* be made when you're dealing with an archetype's place amongst their archetype peers.

I'm sure that the devs could simply datamine khel advancement time from 1 to 50 in a void, but I don't think that they work that way. At least I don't think that they Should work that way.

I'm not seeking to make khels the big damage archetype. Were I doing that I'd be asking for blaster ranged damage modifier and scrapper melee damage modifier.

I'm not. I don't think that they should ever get that. VEAT damage modifiers and nerfing the inherent is, to me, the simplest and fairest fix that doesn't negatively affect anyone's playstyle while benefitting those that solo and/or forego the forms.

It does so while following the pattern set out by the developers for every other AT in the game.

Bring team based assistance? Do less damage. Bring damage? Do a lot but that amount is adjusted based on your mitigation.

I gave up on my Peacebringer (tri-form, with focus on nova) at level 39. I agree with everything Bill mentioned in his first post, but I'd add the following annoyances:

Can't queue powers out of your form. The forms overall are just clunky in a myriad of ways.
Shifting takes too long.
Insane endurance issues
-recharge makes dwarf useless (you either lose aggro, run, or watch as you die a slow agonizing death... or shift to human and die a fast death)
Human shields fantastically useless. With them on, I run out of end in light form (since I don't have it slotted for damage resist yet), and there's no point in toggling them otherwise because the forms shut them off.
Human ranged attacks also useless, aside from proton scatter. The damage just isn't there, and now that cosmic balance carries over to the forms, the one saving grace they had (massive damage buff with the right team setup) is gone.
Light form is just annoying. Doesn't give enough endurance recovery at base to overcome the massive end drain on human attacks, and I've never been fond of crash mechanics. As it is light form is the only time human form feels decent.
Impossible to get a tri-form build that doesn't waste slots and powers. You have no choice but to pick a ranged attack and a shield, or two ranged attacks for levels two and four. By level 14 you are again forced to pick a shield or a ranged human attack unless you go into power pools, and this is already assuming you picked up proton scatter.

I love my peacebringer and will bring him to 50 eventually, but he's just too frustrating to play most of the time.

I just got done talking to a couple kheldian friends who attended hero con the last 2 years and got a chance to speak with both Castle and Sunstorm on nearly these exact points.

The consensus that was explained to me was that the devs WANT people to use the forms because the shape shifting "IS" the Kheldians schtick.

"IF" this is an accurate rendering of the devs philosophy on Khelds then I think your best bet is to attempt changes to make the shape shifting less "clunky" (and I personaly don't find it so) and not try to make full human builds the easier to play and nearly/as profficient as Tri-Forming Kheldians to appeal to the people who do not like Kheldians but want a humanish blaster/scrapper hybrid.

Just my 2 cents.

It's a good 2 cents.

I completely agree that the current design plan for kheldians involves usage of the forms, but I don't agree that the devs have done a worthwhile job in making the forms desirable. Even with the inherent now working full force, for me at least, the price of shapeshifting outweighs the benefits.

They devs have gone against design wishes due to coding failure before and I see no reason for them not to do so here.

Fact of the matter is that when you do choose to concentrate your build on form shifting, you're left with a truly anemic human form with most of its powers, barring those that benefit the forms, either skipped or so poorly slotted that they're useless. Frankenslotted or not.

That said, do I expect the point that dev intent to focus on the forms to be used against my proposal? Absolutely. Luckily this change will still leave tri-forming as the superior choice for those that team while benefitting those that don't. (-citation needed here, but I'm working on that.)

Oddly enough I find myself normaly agreeing with you on nearly every subject as I find your fact and number based comparisons dead on, I do dissagree with you on Kheldian matters.

I believe there should always be a large drop off in performance when you attempt to take any AT/power set in a direction away from it's intended use.

Just as I would expect to lose performance on a Tank or Scrapper by skipping some or all of the toggles, I would also expect a (substantial) drop off in performance when one or two Kheldian forms are skipped.

I do not believe allowing people to opt out of the forms with only minimal performance difference should be allowed any more than a retooling of the Scrapper AT so that people can opt out of using toggles with only a slightly lower degree of performance.

I believe Tri-Forming's "clunkiness" as I think you called it, is what we use to pay for the additional benifit in damage and protection. If human form damage was improved I would only truely back the idea if Squid and Dwarf damage were improved by the same degree to keep the extra effort of Tri-Forming equal to the benifit we gain from using the forms.

Again, this is just how I percieve things.

Except there is a major difference between what I believe to be "intended design" (based on interviews from Devs when they were first interviewed) and what you think the Devs NOW think is "intended design" (based on what your friends say the Devs say now).

If Geko's interview (way back when they first introduced them) is ANY indication as to what the ORIGINAL intended design is... We're doing it EXACTLY like they originally intended us to: which is, to pick and choose (whether it be tri, bi, or human-only) how to play our Khelds, WITHOUT pigeon-holing us into HAVING to play with the other forms in order to "be effective."

If this is the case, then I truly hope the Devs stick to the ORIGINAL DESIGN, which (I think) lends itself to more options.

The day they decide to nerf human-only players like myself in order to make tri-formers "more viable" or pigeon-hole Kheldian players into playing tri-form is the day I quietly leave the game for good.

"Alien"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

In my tri-form builds for both PB and WS, I spend either 33 extra slots (15 Nova, 18 Dwarf on PB) or 34 extra slots (15 Nova, 19 Dwarf on WS) beyond the additional default 1-slot on form powers. That's pretty much half my allocated slots for the entire character going to forms ... leaving only half my remaining slots to be spent on human form. This makes slots for human form *tight* to allocate when there's only 32-33 left over to spend, since it means only FIVE 6-slot powers (at most). In practice what winds up happening is FOUR 6-slot powers and a sprinkling of 2-slot (bubbles, etc.), 4-slot and 5-slot allocations to soak up anything and everything that's left.

It'd make a big difference if Kheldians got 3 slots every level ... starting at level 3 ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

My intent was only to relate what was explained to me by my friends who very recently spoke with Castle I believe it was this year, and Sunstorm? at last years hero-Con.

There is no speculation or guessing on my part. That is simply the information that was given to them.

Now since that information was given I WILL speculate and say I believe any changes made will not "just" improve or nerf human form as I believe any changes made will be with the intent to keep the balance of power between human only, bi forms and tri forms at its current ratio.

In short I don't believe we will see any radical (or for one style of play or another) changes at all.

If you currently feel nerfed or gimpy I would expect you to still feel this way and if you do not I would also expect you to feel no different after any (if there even are any) changes.

Actually, according to my numbers, Everything you just said is wrong...

"Alien"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..