The Branching mechanic and *me.*

In another thread, I was making comments about various things with VEATs that bugged me. Among other things, I mentioned that in beta, I was looking forward to the branching mechanic – one of the things that defines a VEAT, really. It's unique to them. And it didn't bug me in beta. But once it hit live, I ended up changing my tune. I found I wasn't fond of it, for a variety of reasons. (Some of which I'll go into later.)


Well, an interesting thing happened today. I also play Aion, and my Priest hit level 10. At level 10, you ascend, get your wings, become a Daeva, and... choose a path to take (in my Priest's case, Cleric or Chanter.) This is the third character I have there that's done this.


Sound familiar? Yeah. It's branching. Yet I like making the choice there. The difference in my attitude towards the two struck me as odd today. Am I being hypocritical? Thinking about it a bit – I'd say no. But I thought it might make for an interesting discussion about the various contrasts.


What this isn't


This isn't a HEAT/VEAT thread. It's not VEAT bashing. I'm going to mention WHY some things about the VEAT branching mechanic bug me when they don't bug me elsewhere. This is not a “Fix VEATs” - I'm not saying they're broken. If you're looking for an argument about how awesome or awful they are – it's not here.


Also, while “compare and contrast” threads about games are against forum rules, I'm not going into “X game is better, here's why.” This is purely a look at similar mechanics. If you like another game better (or hate it,) hey, great.


The only games I can really contrast this with are Guild Wars and Aion. I'm sure a similar mechanic exists elsewhere, so if anyone wants to chime in there, hey, go for it.


Also, I'm not going to go into overall why I find them fun or not fun, comments on the stories or the like. This is JUST dealing with the branching mechanic, as for me I suspect the way it was handled is a big part of my overall irritation. So yes, this is me working on figuring things out - much like I did trying to find out why I didn't like masterminds (one set, Bot/FF, put me off the entire AT for a while - now I love my others.)



Warning – this is, of course, heavily my opinions and views. I'm trying to watch my wording in a lot of this, but if you see me say “X is irritating” - just mentally add in “to MB.” It's not something to start a fight over, but if you have some other viewpoint to contrast with it, feel free.


VEAT branching – what is it?


Simply put, you go for 23 levels simply as a “soldier” or “widow.” Nothing all that special, and the powers of the branches aren't opened up to you. Up to this point, you're a lot like the regular ATs. At 24, when you see the trainer, you're told you have to respec now and pick a branch, starting over from level 1. You choose one branch, and the other is closed off for you. This makes you a Widow, Fortunata, Bane or Crab. (Ignoring, for the moment, huntsman type builds.)


Now, COV has some interesting things to it. We're very free with respecs. Three trials, recipes, purchasable respecs, freespecs with most issues and more, you can rebuild your character over and over – and that ignores dual builds. No choice you make is permanent, beyond AT, primary and secondary (and it's arguable that VEATs ignore primary and secondary, since you get no choice of them in the AT, you're either Widow or Soldier, two distinct ATs. But you do get different branches with, sometimes, vastly different powers in them.)


Branching in the other games


Aion, as mentioned, has you “Ascend” at level 10. Your choice of initial class – Mage, Scout, Warrior or Priest – determines which you become. (Scout = Ranger or Assassin, for instance.) The choice is permanent – as far as I've heard, there's nothing like a respec in Aion. Of course, this IS also like many other MMOs where you don't keep your old powers – in COH, you use Burst (for instance) from 1-50, enhancing it as you go, whereas in Aion you end up with (powername) I, superceded by (powername) II and so forth. You learn a stronger version, you don't just beef up what you have and add other powers to it.


This shuffling of power slotting and enhancement is one of the reasons respeccing is – to me – a vital part of COH and how it deals with powers.


Guild Wars, as I recall (it's not gripping enough of a game to keep me playing constantly) is similar in a way. While you don't branch, early on (level 5) you pick a secondary, so you can be (for instance) a Ranger/Elementalist. (This would, VERY roughly, be like choosing to be a fire blaster, and at level 6 when pools open up also choosing, say, Energy Melee as well.) Again, though, powers get replaced, not enhanced. (among other things.)


The latter two (Aion and GW) are very much with the standard MMO mold, as I've seen it, with how they deal with powers. COH, by comparison, is incredibly flexible in most cases. No decision you make is permanent.


This, I think, is one of the things that ends up bugging me with VEAT branching. The complants may seem minor, but handled a little differently, I don't think I would be complaining. (Disclaimer: Again, I am NOT calling to “fix VEATs.” Should the mechanic be used in the future, though, perhaps some of this would come into consideration.)


My branching complaints


When it comes to my talking about VEATs and branching, I usually mention three things -


First, it happens late in the character's life. OK, maybe not "Level 40" late, but it *feels* too late to me. It feels (to me) like it takes too long to get there, like I've “wasted” almost half my numeric levels.


Second, the respec is forced at the trainer at 24, as opposed to being able to put it off.


Third, and last of my usual complaints, respeccing is somewhat irritating, but dual builds are awful (to me,) as you do the same thing with build 2 – build to 23, then start over again.


One I'm going to add in here that I don't normally say – it's not permanent, or permanent in that build. I'll get to that in a bit.


So what is it about all this that puts a burr in my saddle? It does, definitely, affect my attitude towards VEATs, but why?


Late in life


Let's look at the first complaint again. VEAT branching happens at level 24. You can't really start “being” what you want until then. Contrast with Aion – level 10 (of 50) – or Guild Wars (level 5.) You burn through the lowbie stuff, decide you like the character, make a choice and then do the majority of the content (PVE and PVP.)

I mentioned how it didn't bug me in beta, but did in live. It didn't affect me when the sets were in beta for two reasons - first, I was hopping between test and live, as well as doing other things. My test characters aren't "serious" characters to me. And second, the test characters got bumped. They skipped dozens of levels as we were asked to test various content, powers, and such. I'd log off a level 10 and come back to a level 35. That really hid how the timing of the branching would "feel" for me.

This somewhat touches on the respec portion of it, as well. With the other two games, and how they're “MMO Standard,” you keep (and just get more powerful versions of) those same powers, then pick up class-specific stuff after that.

I really think this feeling I have of “wasted levels” and “wasted effort” is part of what gets to me with VEATs. If the branching happened earlier – during the “fast levels” (up to, say, 14,) it wouldn't be anywhere near as big a deal. Instead, you're in the middle of the 25-30 content, have to come to a halt and completely rebuild your character when other characters are really coming into their own, getting some of the signature powers and beefing them up. I can't help but get the image of the VEAT (at this point) being a grade schooler kept in class during recess to redo their lessons while the other kids play.

Branching off earlier means you would get more time to “play” as what you finally will be. Which, for me personally, I think would be more satisfying. And during a respec? Zip right through. Even a dual build, it's only a couple of powers to pick at that point and you're ready to go.


That really works itself through the first three points I usually bring up regarding these. A feeling of wasted time and inconvenience to the point of irritation.


The last idea, that of permanence, would be a big change (and quite likely unpopular if I were suggesting VEATs be changed to it – which I'm not, just looking at how it could affect branching.) Imagine leveling up to 10 or 14 and being told, “You have a choice to make. This choice will finalize your archetype.” From that level, you are always (say) a Widow. You'll never see a Fort power in that build.


Why would anyone do this? It's against all the free-form choices we normally get in COH. Yet, looking at it in light of the prior complaints – it would solve most of them. (That and, I admit, I'm a fan of permanence. I like having my patron be my patron, even if I pick another one's powers – which is more fair gameplay wise. I like that you can fail the Efficiency Expert's badge. I like choices with consequences.)


Of course, this could be “cheated” easily with dual builds, and honestly, I'd be fine with that. Let it be permanent within a build, and let the builds be different. When you start the second build, you get a checkbox of which branch you want to take, skipping the whole “.... and start over at level X” bit. But I like the thought of “You choose your path, and that's what you are from here on out.” Later (post-branch) respecs, you'd be respeccing your widow from step 1 as a widow, never seeing fortunata powers on that build. Done early, it would eliminate the feeling I mention getting of wasted effort and wasted levels. Also, if it were done early, you could quite conceivably keep the “basic” powers and just start picking up branch powers, instead of having to start over – making that forced respec not such a sudden stop-and-start.


Would it make a huge difference, play-wise, for VEATs? It's hard to say. You'd start BEING your eventual self earlier – which, for me, may help “get into” the character more, getting a better feel for its strengths and weaknesses without having to unlearn so much. And again, it would lessen if not eliminate the feel I get of just burning through levels until I can finally play the “real” character at 24 (and hope it's what I'm looking for – though, admittedly, with many powersets it takes a bit to get into them and see what they're truly capable of. On the flip side of that, though, you're not running 23 levels of Ice and suddenly having to deal with being an Illusion controller.)


My design


So, taking this into consideration, if we were to get another “branching” AT designed like this, how would it work?

• You branch early, say level 10-14.
• Your early powers, the very basic ones, are kept regardless of branch. You don't respec and start over when you branch – this keeps a smoother “flow” of the character and its progression.
• Once you pick your branch, within that build, you never see the other branch's powers. You can, of course, start a second build, pick the branch at the start and just build from level 1 that way. On the other hand, with the branching coming early, rolling a new one is more attractive as well.

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I like Veats. And I like the whole "branching" concept. I do see how they could be improved upon.

I dont think they went into great enough detail on the implementation.

If I choose a widow, eventually my choices are ranged psi blaster or melee claws scrapper and team buffs. I could be selfish and not play that playstyle but whatever.
I love the thought of the team buff secondary, but my options are +def, acc, damage. Oh yea and a mega defense buff.

Why couldnt my choices be ranged psi blaster or claws scrapper type
AND
Team +def, acc, damage buffs OR heals (not that im advocating "teh healzor") and emp type buffs?

Leveling to 24 isnt THAT big of a deal in this game. Im sure some peeps can manage a PL session and get that in like 5-10 hours. But for the avg player thats like a 20 to 30 hour commitment. A rather long time to spend on a toon to FINALLY see what its gonna be like.

I can respect your opinion on the matter. Im sure some are goin to differ.
But to each their own.

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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary

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Originally Posted by Dispari Yeah, I like Blasters too.

I like your ideas, especially about building on the original powers and about getting to branch earlier.

I really enjoyed my run from 1-23 with my Wolf Spider. Then at 24 I respec'ced into a Bane Spider and I enjoyed that too. My two problems with branching were these: First, I missed the Assault Rifle style of play from levels 1-23. Second I felt like I was playing a completely different character from 24-30. I felt like I had lost something. The discontinuity between what it had been from what it became was much too drastic.

Your suggested method of branching would have been much better for me. I wouldn't have lost my early abilities, and I would have felt I was playing the same character.

Branching does come in kinda late in a VEATs career, and building the second (dual) build to 23 then starting over is indeed kind of annoying. Neither of these are game breaking and both of them I can live with, the latter (dual build issue) might be either engine limitation or dev oversight that might be fixed in the future as a QoL change

I agree that it seems a bit late to be branching. You're nearly half way through your character, in terms of levels. Some time between getting your travel and getting to SO level would seem a better place for me. I don't generally PL a character, so the time it takes to get to 24 is not insignificant.

Perhaps it even makes sense to be able to branch after having completed one of your earlier VEAT story arcs, as an example, to tie it to the back story.

Level 24 feels a bit too far in a character's lifetime to branch (20 feels like it would be better). But on the other hand I've gone through the early Soldier levels 3 times so far and it's actually gotten more fun each time I did it.

Don't be too surprised that VEATs have some QoL hiccups. Branching classes will always have a cognitive disconnect at their heart.

The design purpose of branching is to make one-and-a-half player classes -- the practical reality as seen by experienced MMO players -- look like three different classes -- what game developers put in the promo materials. In any MMO with branching classes, experienced MMO players (like the OP) know from day 0 which of the one-and-a-half classes their final class will be, and build accordingly. The devs, on the other hand, benefit if the game looks like it has a widow, another kind of widow, and a fortunata, not just an eventual widow and an eventual fortunata with a significant amount of overlap in powers and team role.

I like a lot of the points that have been raised in this thread. I, too, have found it tough to stick with leveling my VEATS, and my highest one is a 29 nw. I really have not known why, I just lose interest in them quickly. I am not sure it for the same reasons expressed by the OP, but I find myself struggling to stick with one for any length of time.

Given that most people in the thread have highlighted "freedom to choose" (through respecs, dual builds, etc.) as a positive point of the game in general, I would advance the following suggestion: widen the range of levels that one could branch. Branching could open as an option as earlier as level 10 with a forced branch (and respec) if you have not done one already at lvl 24. Meaning, you can begin building your toon with branch powers as early as lvl 10, but if you get to lvl 24 and have not selected a branch, you would be forced to at that point, along with the forced respec. I would go one step farther to say that you could run a story arc at 42 to win the right to re-assign your branch, but other than that, branches are not respec-able normally, just like a standard AT primary or secondary.

Having substantial, gameplay-altering character choices be permanent and made after character creation strikes me as a poor idea. If you want to be locked into a single play style, just make it two different archetypes and have done with it.

I also don't think much of the suggestion to be forced into keeping the early basic powers. Again, this is removing one of the defining elements of a branching archetype. What you describe is just an epic power pool choice - you pick one, you can't get another. Sure, there will be more powers in the pool, and the choice is made earlier, but it's not a new branch of your character. The branching mechanism for VEATs dramatically changes the character, this would be punitive if you were forced to keep the early basic powers that might easily not work at all well with a dramatically changed post-branching character.

I think branching earlier would be a good idea, though. The branching is a large part of what's cool about VEATs, getting to experience it earlier would help draw people in - although in my experience, lots of people already play VEATs, it's Kheldians I don't see very often. Still, that's a different thread.