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See, this is what I don't get though. If someone pays for 5 years of subtime upfront, they're commiting themselves to the game in the exact same fashion as someone who paid for that time month by month for 5 years. Veterans argue that vet rewards are fair because everyone earns them the exact same way -- by paying for it. So does it really matter if they pay upfront or not? It doesn't really to me.|
Originally Posted by Goldbrick
This idea has been put forth numerous times before. It's not about money, it's about time spent playing the game. Veteran status (life experience) cannot be advance-purchased.
It seems that your heart isn't in this idea. |
Turning around and claiming that suddenly it's about life experience makes people sound desperate. What is deemed as life experience? Someone who plays 365*5 days earns city traveler? I doubt any one person has logged in everyday from day 1. If you agree, then you probably agree it's acceptable for someone who has paid for all that time but didn't log in every day to get the veteran reward. Well, if that's the case, then why can't someone who's currently been playing, paying for all of that time up front still get the reward (with badges unlocking on appropriate anniversaries)....after all, they're characters will be there for the same duration....?
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Originally Posted by Goldbrick
It seems that your heart isn't in this idea.
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@Texarkana
@Thexder
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The argument is irrelevant because of the rebuttal. This is like the people who claim they don't brush their teeth because they have "soft teeth" and it won't matter after a dentist tells them they don't have soft teeth.
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Originally Posted by Random Neg rep
recycled and irrelevant rebuttal
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You're both missing the point, and attributing thoughts and words to people that aren't there. What counts is not what veterans think and say, but what the Devs think and say.|
Originally Posted by Texarkana
See, this is what I don't get though. If someone pays for 5 years of subtime upfront, they're commiting themselves to the game in the exact same fashion as someone who paid for that time month by month for 5 years. Veterans argue that vet rewards are fair because everyone earns them the exact same way -- by paying for it. So does it really matter if they pay upfront or not? It doesn't really to me.
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The Devs want some kind of metric that guages community participation. They don't want to make that unfair by dictating that people need to be online x hours or days to get rewards, because some people can login for a couple hours a week and still contribute a lot to the community (the guy who runs a player event or sets up a Hami Raid or something, for examples). However they also don't want to dictate that people need to make quality contributions or even play with other people, if they don't want to. It's just being there that counts. Not much of a hurdle to overcome.
Therefore, they select time the account has been active. Not time the account is going to be active, time it has been active. That makes the assumption that people are logging in and playing at least part of the time the account is active. It has nothing to do with the paying of a sub fee. They just want people to have had the opportunity to be logged in and contributing before they hand over goodies. Not much of a hurdle to overcome.
They measure being part of the community the best way they can without going overboard on enforcing people to play a certain amount of time.
What I don't get is why that's so hard to see for some people, and why they consistently think it's a matter of money or that waiting is so onerous that things need to be easier or "more fair"
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Do you have evidence to back up this interpretation of what Veteran's Rewards are for?
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
The Devs want some kind of metric that guages community participation.
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I'm not missing the point and, frankly, you're one who is making attributions and assumptions, as are those vets who turn around and say it's about "experience".|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You're both missing the point, and attributing thoughts and words to people that aren't there. What counts is not what veterans think and say, but what the Devs think and say.
The Devs want some kind of metric that guages community participation. They don't want to make that unfair by dictating that people need to be online x hours or days to get rewards, because some people can login for a couple hours a week and still contribute a lot to the community (the guy who runs a player event or sets up a Hami Raid or something, for examples). However they also don't want to dictate that people need to make quality contributions or even play with other people, if they don't want to. It's just being there that counts. Not much of a hurdle to overcome. Therefore, they select time the account has been active. Not time the account is going to be active, time it has been active. That makes the assumption that people are logging in and playing at least part of the time the account is active. It has nothing to do with the paying of a sub fee. They just want people to have had the opportunity to be logged in and contributing before they hand over goodies. Not much of a hurdle to overcome. They measure being part of the community the best way they can without going overboard on enforcing people to play a certain amount of time. What I don't get is why that's so hard to see for some people, and why they consistently think it's a matter of money or that waiting is so onerous that things need to be easier or "more fair" |
As I said, I am not for changing the Vet reward system but I'm open-minded enough to suggest a compromise for those "behind the curve". Currently Vet rewards are attributed based on the following account time:
........(1.) The free month of game time included with the game,
........(2.) free trial time, and
........(3.) payments by credit card or game time card. Payments by credit card or game time card only include the paid time **already incurred, not future time**
Now, my point *if* there should be a compromise is that they should drop the qualification of paid time "already incurred, not future time". Will that happen? Don't know, don't care. There are a myriad of reasons not related to the game as to why they would not do it including liability to refunding money if they shut down before time was used, wanting to recognize ongoing revenues, or having a carrot to keep people subscribed when they might otherwise take 1 month breaks during issue releases.
As you state, it is up to the devs and what they think, I agree wholeheartedly. But there are those out there, such as yourself, that think they can spin any sort of answer to justify keeping the vets rewards as-is when you really don't have a clue: pot, meet kettle. I specifically called out the use of the subscription time change because a.) people have argued that basing on subcription time is fair because everyone has to "pay" it and b.) because when it is proposed that the qualifaction be removed, suddenly there are defensive remarks like "it's about game experience" which come off as elitist.
@Texarkana
@Thexder
Just for you, Eiko, I'm going to make a Boxer costume for Red. ^_^
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Agonus:
In the end, there are really only two things that keep this game going:
1) Funds, derived from players paying for access to the game, which pays for the Devs and the servers, plus other expenses.
2) Other players in the game.
Without 1, there really wouldn't be a game, since there would be no Developers, nor would there be the servers to play them on.
Without the second one, people would leave quite quickly, which would cause a loss of #1. Now, is Veteran time a good representation of how much time a player spends in the game? Probably not, but I don't know how you would adjust it to represent that fairly across the board, since a new player coming in might get a lot of hours playing the game, but they don't have the long-term experience and knowledge of a lot of the changes that have taken place that someone playing a few hours a week since release might have.
But what the current veteran reward system does is rewards both #1 and #2, or at least tries to. Because of how it is set up, it is designed to reward us both for paying and playing, not just one or the other.
Changing it so that it rewards only time paid would be a fundamental shift in that policy. Would it change the number of people playing at any given time? I have absolutely no idea. But it would remove the idea that the system is there to encourage both #1 and #2. And personally, I think that's a bad precedent to set.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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See, this is one of those days where I hate you. |
Originally Posted by Agonus
Just for you, Eiko, I'm going to make a Boxer costume for Red. ^_^
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I should probably point out that Eiko and I argue over a lot of the aspects of this game.
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Vet Rewards are a good representation as any for measuring how long a player has had an active subscription. That is not the same thing as the amount of experience a player has with the game. Some Vets explore every single nook and cranny, and try to do everything they can. Some players could care lest about any text in the game, and they fly through content as fast as possible. Some players like the setting more than the game, and they rarely get a character past level 20. Some players just forgot to cancel their subscription. And there's lots of other variants.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Agonus:
In the end, there are really only two things that keep this game going: 1) Funds, derived from players paying for access to the game, which pays for the Devs and the servers, plus other expenses. 2) Other players in the game. Without 1, there really wouldn't be a game, since there would be no Developers, nor would there be the servers to play them on. Without the second one, people would leave quite quickly, which would cause a loss of #1. Now, is Veteran time a good representation of how much time a player spends in the game? Probably not, but I don't know how you would adjust it to represent that fairly across the board, since a new player coming in might get a lot of hours playing the game, but they don't have the long-term experience and knowledge of a lot of the changes that have taken place that someone playing a few hours a week since release might have. |
But the system is there. MMO Developers on the whole seem to like the concept of Veteran Rewards. They like you buying the game early on and staying with the game. Vet Rewards are intended to thank players for sticking around. Whether or not it's easier to retain the costumers you have or to get new one seems to be highly debatable, but to me anyway, it seems like the CHV Devs focus on keeping the people they have happy.
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But what the current veteran reward system does is rewards both #1 and #2, or at least tries to. Because of how it is set up, it is designed to reward us both for paying and playing, not just one or the other. Changing it so that it rewards only time paid would be a fundamental shift in that policy. Would it change the number of people playing at any given time? I have absolutely no idea. But it would remove the idea that the system is there to encourage both #1 and #2. And personally, I think that's a bad precedent to set. |
I have the 42 month Vet badge. (I'd also probably be up to 51 months or more if I had kept my subscription active from the first day I got the game, but I had major internet troubles for a while.) The next Vet Reward of any note is the 48 Month buff pet. Would I like to have that now? Yeah, it'd be nice, but I'll live. The next "costume" pieces are the Pre-Order Arachnos helmets, one of which I already having from CoV the first time around. Couldn't care less about that.
I knew about the CoH when it was released, but didn't buy it at first. I had no indication of the concept of Vet Rewards until SWG. Yeah, I got some retroactive Vet Rewards when CHV started the program, but I do not understand this "unfair" claim. The Devs are thanking the players for sticking around from the beginning. I find it hard to believe there was ever any intent to spite new players with rewards they would have to wait to get, and could -only- wait to get. Vet Rewards are incentive to stick around. But it's far from hopeless for pretty much everything but the Samurai armor. If you absolutely must have wings NAO, buy the Valkyrie pack, or the Magic pack for a long coat. Use hand wraps for your fighter, or fingerless gloves.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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We're also in the same VG.
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Originally Posted by Agonus
I should probably point out that Eiko and I argue over a lot of the aspects of this game.
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It's clear you've read the description page and the FAQ for vet rewards, but I find it funny you leave out the key details we're basing what we say on. They specifically denote the difference between time active and time paid, more than once.|
Originally Posted by Texarkana
I'm not missing the point and, frankly, you're one who is making attributions and assumptions, as are those vets who turn around and say it's about "experience".
As I said, I am not for changing the Vet reward system but I'm open-minded enough to suggest a compromise for those "behind the curve". Currently Vet rewards are attributed based on the following account time: ........(1.) The free month of game time included with the game, ........(2.) free trial time, and ........(3.) payments by credit card or game time card. Payments by credit card or game time card only include the paid time **already incurred, not future time** Now, my point *if* there should be a compromise is that they should drop the qualification of paid time "already incurred, not future time". Will that happen? Don't know, don't care. There are a myriad of reasons not related to the game as to why they would not do it including liability to refunding money if they shut down before time was used, wanting to recognize ongoing revenues, or having a carrot to keep people subscribed when they might otherwise take 1 month breaks during issue releases. As you state, it is up to the devs and what they think, I agree wholeheartedly. But there are those out there, such as yourself, that think they can spin any sort of answer to justify keeping the vets rewards as-is when you really don't have a clue: pot, meet kettle. I specifically called out the use of the subscription time change because a.) people have argued that basing on subcription time is fair because everyone has to "pay" it and b.) because when it is proposed that the qualifaction be removed, suddenly there are defensive remarks like "it's about game experience" which come off as elitist. |
Changing the system to be about time paid does not become more fair in any way shape or form, since it allows those with the biggest wallets to get rewards faster. Plain and simple. As it stands, they all get rewards based on how long they're active with the game, not how much they can pay.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Under the current system if you pay for a year or but on a butt load of time cards and get banned after 6 or 7 months you never got your other rewards. Just puttin that out there.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
It's clear you've read the description page and the FAQ for vet rewards, but I find it funny you leave out the key details we're basing what we say on. They specifically denote the difference between time active and time paid, more than once.
Changing the system to be about time paid does not become more fair in any way shape or form, since it allows those with the biggest wallets to get rewards faster. Plain and simple. As it stands, they all get rewards based on how long they're active with the game, not how much they can pay. |
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Exactly. In fact new players to the game are actually getting certain things much sooner than players that have been playing since the beginning. Think about it. Many players like myself had to wait almost 3 years to get wings, trench coats and what not. What is it like 9 months for a trench coat? We stuck with the game and kept our accounts active NOT knowing what was coming and that doesn't apply to just veteran rewards either. There is a whole host of things in the game that did not exist for a long time. Capes, markets, multiple costumes, multiple builds, AE...hell, power customization. The vet rewards are there to say thank you to the players that have hung in there through thick and thin.|
Originally Posted by Goldbrick
They were earned. Doesn't matter if they weren't available for the first 30 months, we still put in the time.
The 120th month vet reward doesn't exist yet, but I'm earning time toward it. |
New players that want to complain about not getting this or that after a couple of months are in affect riding the trench coat tales of the players that kept the game alive by staying loyal...plain and simple.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
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Well, I hope those coat tails keep the veterans warm as newer players flock to games that don't deny them customisation for arbitrary reasons.
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Originally Posted by CodeJunkie
New players that want to complain about not getting this or that after a couple of months are in affect riding the trench coat tales of the players that kept the game alive by staying loyal...plain and simple.
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Have you looked at the "Baron" coat? Personally, I prefer it to the trenchcoat. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Veteran's Rewards are the only way to receive trench coats,
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| angel/demon wings, |
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| I'd like to see the VR costume pieces added to the game, and the benefit replaced by a free costume unlock instead - whatever sort of unlock the Veteran desires, be it a Vanguard piece, a weapon unlock, a craftable costume piece, or what have you. That way Veterans still get the costume bonus, but no longer have exclusive access to particular costume sets or pieces. |
EVERYBODY has access to vet rewards simply by meeting the requirements of having an account active X months. Doesn't sound particularly "exclusive" by comparison, does it.
And by getting access to unlockable pieces, we'll have someone else giving the EXACT SAME argument as you - "They get it by being vets right away, I don't, it's not fair." (Even though veteran rewards, by definition, aren't awarded "right away" but after a period of time with an active account.)
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Numbers. Go ahead, prove people are "flocking to (other) games" for this very reason. You said it, now prove it.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Well, I hope those coat tails keep the veterans warm as newer players flock to games that don't deny them customisation for arbitrary reasons.
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Female models don't get that coat.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Have you looked at the "Baron" coat? Personally, I prefer it to the trenchcoat.
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| And by getting access to unlockable pieces, we'll have someone else giving the EXACT SAME argument as you - "They get it by being vets right away, I don't, it's not fair." |
I'm not going to let slippery slopes work. I'm asking to be able to be proactive. Your hypothetical complaints would not be proactive. There is a clear difference.
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And then you'd have "non-vets" complaining that vets get extra salvage/WW slots they don't get and should be able to just purchase them.
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Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
I still say (as a 57 month vet):
Make the costume pieces available to everyone.. Give vets additional Salvage/Rec/WW slots. |
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
I'm a 66 month vet now, and it honestly wouldn't bother me if they made the vet costume pieces available as craftable recipes that new players have the option of earning as drops or purchasing via the market on a per-character basis, but will continue to be unlocked as Vet Rewards on an account-wide basis on the current schedule.
Start with the standard Angel and Demon wings and then make all costume pieces beyond that (except the Arachnos helmets, since they were preorder bonuses) available as recipe drops.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Also, to the OP:
You might be interested to hear that Super Booster IV: Martial Arts was released today.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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*purchases*|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Also, to the OP:
You might be interested to hear that Super Booster IV: Martial Arts was released today. |
Like why not, I have all the boosters right now anyway including the bridal pack.
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Wait, wait, wait. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Except, unlike veteran reward costumes, there exists something they can do to get said piece. VR pieces as they currently exist cannot be acquired any other way.
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Vanguard pieces are ONLY obtainable via vanguard merits, and ONLY after hitting at least level 35. You cannot get them earlier. You're not guaranteed of getting them *at all,* frankly, unless you catch raids or do a lot of rikti missions (with a very little bit of help from the day job.)
Vet rewards - you ARE guaranteed to get them, on every character. You don't have to do anything special - just keep your game active. You can have a lvl 1 that does nothing but RP in Pocket D, and as the time comes up - you get the piece. You don't even have to *leave* Pocket D. And you get the pieces from *character creation.*
Seems the vanguard pieces are more restrictive - or, "exclusive," if you will.
Want more exclusive yet? Again - the Hero-con giveaways. You have to be able to reach a specific locale in the US at a specific time for one event. And you can't (so far) get the same one if you miss the event - it's a different one each year. That is *exclusive.* (Top it off with the fact that many of those NPC pieces are unavailable to players to begin with.) Only a very limited number of people will get those. EVERYONE is guaranteed to get the vet pieces, just by staying active in the game.
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Not costume pieces. Not the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Want more exclusive yet? Again - the Hero-con giveaways.
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It is the same if someone has the concept of an NPC character but doesn't find the current costume items good enough. In fact most concepts that are based of vet costume items are easier to work around then NPC costumes.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Not costume pieces. Not the same thing.
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It seems that your heart isn't in this idea.