LOLPVP!
Aren't you supposed to adapt and overcome?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I like to think my bright pink hurricane hypnotizes people and stops them in their tracks long enough for me to get to them.
Ya customization isn't exactly newb friendly in pvp what with the ability to color things so they are almost invisible in some settings (ie black caltrops on a dark surface). But I dunno, of all the anti-newb things added over the last few issues I think colors rank pretty low. (It's funny because those things added were supposed to be newb friendly).
Everything still retains the original icons on your bar. Ya it used to be nice to suddenly glow bright green in the middle of a big battle of EF/RI was on you, but what are you gonna do?
A now customization option has been requested in other places as well, but personally I'd rather they just move on to making the rest of the powers customizable and then move on from the project entirely. I dread the thought of colors becoming another massive money pit like AE did. Do it right, do it quickly, and move on to the next project.
Look at it another way: if they make a customization off feature is it going to attract any new pvp'ers? They weren't coming before customization and they aren't coming after. Maybe a percentage of the incoming trickle is being driven off by colors, but maybe not.
with how different the rules are in pvp I think the colors of powers is the least of a new players worrys
Quote:
Really? Really now?|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
LOLPVP!
Aren't you supposed to adapt and overcome? |
You quote yourself in your sig?
I can't understand how you guys can complain about the apparent 'death of PVP' when threads like this seem like they have been designed to scare of the next generation of PVPers. You talk like they don't stand a chance? Because of the colours of the powers??
I'm a newb to PVP myself and I had a blast the first time I tried it out in RV. In my opinion the only reason I think people tend not to get into PVP anymore is because of the whole air of negativity surrounding it.
People need to stop complaining and spread the word to other players about just how fun it can be. All thats really needed for a decent even sided contest is a good team chemistry on both sides; as far as I can tell.
But hey what do I know; I'm just a newb right? 
Quote:
Yes. Really.|
Originally Posted by _Lith_
Really? Really now?
|
I don't really PVP. But I find it somewhat...no, I find it totally atrocious that the complaint is "I can't adapt because the power customizations make it tough for me to tell what I'm being hit with and adapt."
Quote:
| You quote yourself in your sig? |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Good point. It definitely would not. In fact, even if it was an option, I think new players would still keep the customization on, just because it's available.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Look at it another way: if they make a customization off feature is it going to attract any new pvp'ers?
|
You guys seem to think it's not a big deal, but wait a few months. I think this will affect PvE too, making PUGs even more horrible with clueless players. How do new people learn the game? From repetition. They see the same green radiation on their targets over and over...and eventually they learn that the green radiation debuffs their target in certain ways. Now instead of that, each time they see the radiation, it's a different color...sometimes the color of a completely different powerset, like dark miasma. Of course they can still learn things. It'll just take a lot longer, since there is no repetition.
Lastly, Hyperstrike, if "I can't adapt because the power customizations make it tough for me to tell what I'm being hit with and adapt" is what you got from my post, you need to learn to read. Because it personally doesn't affect me at all, as I clearly mentioned in the OP.
Quote:
lmao good stuff
|
Originally Posted by _Lith_
Really? Really now?
You quote yourself in your sig? |
Quote:
No. And yes, yes you are. So am I. |
Originally Posted by MJR
I can't understand how you guys can complain about the apparent 'death of PVP' when threads like this seem like they have been designed to scare of the next generation of PVPers. You talk like they don't stand a chance? Because of the colours of the powers??
I'm a newb to PVP myself and I had a blast the first time I tried it out in RV. In my opinion the only reason I think people tend not to get into PVP anymore is because of the whole air of negativity surrounding it. People need to stop complaining and spread the word to other players about just how fun it can be. All thats really needed for a decent even sided contest is a good team chemistry on both sides; as far as I can tell. But hey what do I know; I'm just a newb right? |
The best thing that could possibly happen to CoX PvP is that PvPers finally give up on PvP. The zones become ghost towns. The Arenas are no longer used and people absolutely refuse to PvP untill the necessary changes are made. People start leaving by the boat loads because even though they SAY they don't want to PvP... many still want the option to PvP because it is end game content.
Then and maybe only then will the Devs actually DO something about the glaring problems with PvP. But i'm fairly convinced that until the Devs have absolute proof that their changes have killed competitive PvP (Meaning the actual DEATH of PvP) we won't see any productive movement on PvP.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yes. Really.
I don't really PVP. But I find it somewhat...no, I find it totally atrocious that the complaint is "I can't adapt because the power customizations make it tough for me to tell what I'm being hit with and adapt." |
You need to learn to read. This is about new PvPers learning the powers, not the old timers. This isn't about the veterans adapting, it's about new players being able to adapt when they are already being overwhelmed learning the retarded DR system and having to learn a whole new set of rules for PvP.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
No. And yes, yes you are. So am I.
The best thing that could possibly happen to CoX PvP is that PvPers finally give up on PvP. The zones become ghost towns. The Arenas are no longer used and people absolutely refuse to PvP untill the necessary changes are made. People start leaving by the boat loads because even though they SAY they don't want to PvP... many still want the option to PvP because it is end game content. Then and maybe only then will the Devs actually DO something about the glaring problems with PvP. But i'm fairly convinced that until the Devs have absolute proof that their changes have killed competitive PvP (Meaning the actual DEATH of PvP) we won't see any productive movement on PvP. |
Sadly, if all PvPers left it would only validate the stupid notion that PvP doesn't work in this game and that they should just move on to other things. Unless they are given an ultimatum from NCSoft the devs will probably never get back to doing anything constructive for PvP. In a way, that is probably for the best since it would make it impossible for them to **** it up any more than they have.
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by MJR
In my opinion the only reason I think people tend not to get into PVP anymore is because of the whole air of negativity surrounding it.
|
PvP is fun for me because it's P V P. Nothing more, nothing less.
If they made major changes to any Pro sport... those that were in it for the love of the game would continue to thrive, get better, and enjoy playing their game. Those that were playing for other reasons would probably quit if the changes weren't in their favor, and find a job where they could criticize the "new game" at every oppourtunity. Welcome to the CoX PvP forums.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Quote:
I dont mean to sound dissagreeing but if it takes a new player longer to learn something for the sake of alot less repetition so be it.
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Good point. It definitely would not. In fact, even if it was an option, I think new players would still keep the customization on, just because it's available.
You guys seem to think it's not a big deal, but wait a few months. I think this will affect PvE too, making PUGs even more horrible with clueless players. How do new people learn the game? From repetition. They see the same green radiation on their targets over and over...and eventually they learn that the green radiation debuffs their target in certain ways. Now instead of that, each time they see the radiation, it's a different color...sometimes the color of a completely different powerset, like dark miasma. Of course they can still learn things. It'll just take a lot longer, since there is no repetition. Lastly, Hyperstrike, if "I can't adapt because the power customizations make it tough for me to tell what I'm being hit with and adapt" is what you got from my post, you need to learn to read. Because it personally doesn't affect me at all, as I clearly mentioned in the OP. |
Quote:
Actually my comprehension is quite good. Thanks for your concern though.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
You need to learn to read.
|
Quote:
| This is about new PvPers learning the powers, not the old timers. |
Quote:
| This isn't about the veterans adapting |
Quote:
| it's about new players being able to adapt when they are already being overwhelmed learning the retarded DR system and having to learn a whole new set of rules for PvP. |
B
O
O
H
O
O
Nuff said?
No? Fine.
It's called "attention to detail". Teaching people how to adapt to powers based on one portion of a whole visual cue is setting them up to fail.
Would default colors make it EASIER for these people?
Indubitably.
So would an "I win" button.
The situation, now, with PVP teaches new players DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED.
The minute you do, you're waking up in a reclaimator back in the base.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
On the flip side, it could mean the devs could convert the open PvP zones to co-op and come up with some pretty wicked events. My favorite conceptual idea had the Shivan's taking control of Bloody Bay's Bank Vault... and Heroes would have to help Villain's break INTO a Bank. |
Originally Posted by Tokyo
No. And yes, yes you are. So am I.
The best thing that could possibly happen to CoX PvP is that PvPers finally give up on PvP. The zones become ghost towns. The Arenas are no longer used and people absolutely refuse to PvP untill the necessary changes are made. People start leaving by the boat loads because even though they SAY they don't want to PvP... many still want the option to PvP because it is end game content. |
Also, there is a slight problem. PvP isn't end-game content. It's just content.
One of the reasons why Guild Wars works is that you can enter PvP play with a well-equipped avatar at any time. Yes, you can get better powers and abilities by playing the PvE content... but for the most part you don't have to do the PvE to do the PvP... or be GOOD at the PvP.
One of the reasons why Tabula Rasa failed is that it tried to make PvP end-game content. So you'd go through 50 levels of PvE and Team based content... then suddenly turn around and have to clone your avatar for a completely different play style. The result was a disaster to NCSoft's quarterly reports. Tabula Rasa's player base evaporated almost as fast as Star Wars Galaxies player base after NGE.
One of the reasons why WarHammer Online works is that it uses PvP as content. You can actually level your character as you play in PvP zones. If you want, you can actually spend most of the game in the PvP zones gaining levels... and because combat is team-based... even if you're a bad player, you can still gain levels and items.
One of the problems City of Heroes has now is that many players try to treat PvP as end-game content. Yes, it is easier to do now since players have dual-builds, and they can have one build that's for the PvE content... and then one build to go and beat each other up. Something I've noticed that PvPer's tend to miss, or ignore, is that they can't actually level up with PvP content. You can't go into the arena, fight all day, and gain a substation number of levels. You can go into an Open-PvP zone and gain experience... but... you get that experience by completing zone missions... which is PvE content.
Now, there are different approach's that the developers could take.
They could take the approach of Guild Wars and allow players to Clone or Copy characters to 50 with a pre-set number of powers and various pre-selected balanced enhancement values. Then, as players level those characters up in the other 99% of the game, they can use IO's gained on their PvE build to slot into their PvP avatar.
I think that's probably the only realistic solution to PvP play. The available financial market simply isn't big enough to support mimicking WarHammer and creating PvP content that allows players to level.
Quote:
PvP IS the two headed dead elephant in the room. it IS end game content in the sense that you become more involved in it once you hit lvl 50. It is also content in that you CAN get involved in it before the 50 mark. It has already been discussed what needs to be done for PvP to get more people in. We need more discussions like that if only to keep the boards alive. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
On the flip side, it could mean the devs could convert the open PvP zones to co-op and come up with some pretty wicked events. My favorite conceptual idea had the Shivan's taking control of Bloody Bay's Bank Vault... and Heroes would have to help Villain's break INTO a Bank.
Also, there is a slight problem. PvP isn't end-game content. It's just content. One of the reasons why Guild Wars works is that you can enter PvP play with a well-equipped avatar at any time. Yes, you can get better powers and abilities by playing the PvE content... but for the most part you don't have to do the PvE to do the PvP... or be GOOD at the PvP. One of the reasons why Tabula Rasa failed is that it tried to make PvP end-game content. So you'd go through 50 levels of PvE and Team based content... then suddenly turn around and have to clone your avatar for a completely different play style. The result was a disaster to NCSoft's quarterly reports. Tabula Rasa's player base evaporated almost as fast as Star Wars Galaxies player base after NGE. One of the reasons why WarHammer Online works is that it uses PvP as content. You can actually level your character as you play in PvP zones. If you want, you can actually spend most of the game in the PvP zones gaining levels... and because combat is team-based... even if you're a bad player, you can still gain levels and items. One of the problems City of Heroes has now is that many players try to treat PvP as end-game content. Yes, it is easier to do now since players have dual-builds, and they can have one build that's for the PvE content... and then one build to go and beat each other up. Something I've noticed that PvPer's tend to miss, or ignore, is that they can't actually level up with PvP content. You can't go into the arena, fight all day, and gain a substation number of levels. You can go into an Open-PvP zone and gain experience... but... you get that experience by completing zone missions... which is PvE content. Now, there are different approach's that the developers could take. They could take the approach of Guild Wars and allow players to Clone or Copy characters to 50 with a pre-set number of powers and various pre-selected balanced enhancement values. Then, as players level those characters up in the other 99% of the game, they can use IO's gained on their PvE build to slot into their PvP avatar. I think that's probably the only realistic solution to PvP play. The available financial market simply isn't big enough to support mimicking WarHammer and creating PvP content that allows players to level. |
Tabula Rasa had more problems with it than PvP. The lagging framerate was a HUGE issue (Hello CoX.) and graphical glitches (I'm pointing a finger at "hall of mirrors") It also had a very poor launch. The lack of refinement throughout the development process hurt Tabula Rasa's reputation and ultimately kept many potential customers away.
Quote:
So let's say they add a new rule to football (the American version) where all players have bats and can only hit the ball with the bats - no hands or feet other than the snap to start the play. You can't seriously believe the players that were in it for "the love of the game" would keep playing after a change as ridiculous as that. Those that liked CoX PvP didn't leave because the changes weren't in their favor, they left because it was no longer the game they enjoyed playing. Telling people to adapt to changes like the Energy Transfer animation change is one thing. Telling them to adapt to changes that essentially change the game they're playing is another thing entirely.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
This.
PvP is fun for me because it's P V P. Nothing more, nothing less. If they made major changes to any Pro sport... those that were in it for the love of the game would continue to thrive, get better, and enjoy playing their game. Those that were playing for other reasons would probably quit if the changes weren't in their favor, and find a job where they could criticize the "new game" at every oppourtunity. Welcome to the CoX PvP forums. |
The idea that PvPers criticize the PvP game because the changes weren't made in their favor is ludicrous at best - PvPers criticize the changes because, quite frankly, they suck. The "new and improved" PvP is just a dumbed-down and slowed version of the old PvP with even more things broken and nothing really fixed. I'd love to see what would happen if they reverted back to the old system but kept the global resists in APP/PPP shields, unresistible travel suppression from being hit by melee attacks on melee ATs, and the -range on taunt powers - those are probably the only things I13 got right.
Even the devs have said they're not entirely happy with the way PvP is right now, and I can't blame them. They may see the PvP we have now and call it balanced, but when most of the older PvPers dislike the new system and there have been few to no new players drawn in by the changes, can it really be seen as a success? I don't think so.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Question: Could you ever call PvP a success to begin with?| Even the devs have said they're not entirely happy with the way PvP is right now, and I can't blame them. They may see the PvP we have now and call it balanced, but when most of the older PvPers dislike the new system and there have been few to no new players drawn in by the changes, can it really be seen as a success? I don't think so. |
The obvious answer is no. The PvP aspect of CoH has never been a serious draw. Some say it's because the game didn't launch with PvP... and that might be somewhat true. However, in the intervening time, which was literal years, between Issue 4 and Issue 12, PvP zones were reported to draw less traffic... combined.. .than a PvE zone most players openly hated (Old Hollows).
You are correct in that PvP itself changed. However, what it changed into is not what the previous player base wanted. The previous minority PvP player base wanted an enviroment were they could... what's the term... wtfbbq pwn... other players. In the PvP environment prior to the I13 that was pretty much the only reason many of the PvPer's I came across were in the zones at all. They wanted the Ultima Online style of play where they could gank anybody, at any time. Going back to the start of CoH, it's easy to see where that mentality came from. Many of CoH's earliest aspects were designed to appeal to somebody who played Everyquest for fun. See this post : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...9&postcount=22
However, the actual amount of players willing to pay for that content... in a different game... well. It's not actually that large. Players who liked that experience will find that UO servers are still active : http://www.uoherald.com/news/
Now, whether or not you like it, and obviously from your posts you don't, the changes made to PvP in I13 better enabled actual player balance. It removed the auto-gank opportunities and put players on a more level playing field.. .which wasn't what the Old pvpers wanted... and... come on. Lets be honest, PvP play isn't Paragon Studio's strong point. Epic Stories, Team Challenges, and PvE content is what Paragon is strongest at... and it's what CoH was built for.
My personal opinion is that the developers would be better off just dropping PvP play entirely. Contract the CoH brand out and have somebody else create a PvP game entirely separate from the RPG. Granted, I'm not sure how that would work in turning a tab-based game into a skill-based game... but it would probably be a better use of NCSoft's money.
Shall we
Quote:
I think you mean a large draw. Pvp pre i13 was very serious to the people who did it. To the extent that they had their own ranking and ladder. | The PvP aspect of CoH has never been a serious draw |
Quote:
| However, in the intervening time, which was literal years, between Issue 4 and Issue 12, PvP zones were reported to draw less traffic |
Quote:
| The previous minority PvP player base wanted an enviroment were they could... what's the term... wtfbbq pwn... other players. |
There is a big list of changes real pvpers asked. None were to make it easier to 'pwn teh nubz'. In fact a good many were to make pvp easier to get into and more rewarding for all players. Perhaps you were unaware of this list or perhaps you turned a blind eye to it. I do however promise you that pre13 there was a very vocal pvp community that wanted changes to make pvp better for all.
Quote:
| Now, whether or not you like it, and obviously from your posts you don't, the changes made to PvP in I13 better enabled actual player balance. It removed the auto-gank opportunities and put players on a more level playing field.. |
Quote:
| which wasn't what the Old pvpers wanted |
Again, go read the list and find out what the old pvpers wanted. Its not what you think and say.
Quote:
| My personal opinion is that the developers would be better off just dropping PvP play entirely. |
Incredibly helpful thanks for stopping by. This is almost as bad as the guy who told us to calm come up with a list of changes we would like and then the devs would listen to us.
Quote:
| tab-based game into a skill-based game |
While there is far less skill involved than there used to be, if it wasn't skill based you wouldn't have so many bad players screaming for nerfs all the time for things that are actually working fine.
Next time you want to post on this subject I sugget going and doing some investigation. Speaking of the old pvpers as gank happy ego maniacs who wanted their I win buttons to fire faster is about as far from the truth as you can get. The players who were like that, and yes I am aware they did exist, were few and far between and almost never posted here.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
Quote:
Seems somebody has a problem with getting told reality. I don't know if whoever posted that rep is aware that mods can see who posts what rep to what account... but they can. And it does go against the TOS of the forums.
| Power customization =... 10-08-2009 02:36 PM full of **** |
Quote:
No. Sorry, no. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
...the changes made to PvP in I13 better enabled actual player balance. It removed the auto-gank opportunities and put players on a more level playing field.. .which wasn't what the Old pvpers wanted... and... come on. Lets be honest, PvP play isn't Paragon Studio's strong point. Epic Stories, Team Challenges, and PvE content is what Paragon is strongest at... and it's what CoH was built for. . |
Go PvP in RV for a while. Yes the devs made changes, but those changes lead to a much more imbalanced PvP environment that favors ATs that specialize in damage. Trollers, Dominators, Defenders, really have no place in PvP anymore due to the Nature of DR and mez.
I don't PvP competitively. But it's not because I wouldn't like to, it's because I refuse to under the current system. In order for me to be competitive in PvP in its current iteration I'd most likely have to make a cookie cutter build. pre-i13 I would have been able to create a troller or dominator and done fairly well in PvP (Not awesome but I would be able to hold my own) prior to i13, I wouldn't give trollers a second glance and with the exception of Mind/Enrgy or Mind/Fire, i'd most likely over-look doms and defenders as well.
As for Paragon Studio's strong point being its: "Epic Stories, Team Challenges and PvE content"...they better start getting REALLY good at developing for PvP. Swtor will be going into beta soon.
Quote:
Don't bother with the warning, just report the comment. I've had similar insults in my rep comments from this thread. It's juvenille, but that's the nature of the PvP forums. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
Seems somebody has a problem with getting told reality. I don't know if whoever posted that rep is aware that mods can see who posts what rep to what account... but they can. And it does go against the TOS of the forums.
|
By the way, you really shouldn't call your personal opinions "Reality." they aren't. Some of your comments seem largely uninformed and that's coming from me.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Question: Could you ever call PvP a success to begin with?
The obvious answer is no. The PvP aspect of CoH has never been a serious draw. Some say it's because the game didn't launch with PvP... and that might be somewhat true. However, in the intervening time, which was literal years, between Issue 4 and Issue 12, PvP zones were reported to draw less traffic... combined.. .than a PvE zone most players openly hated (Old Hollows). You are correct in that PvP itself changed. However, what it changed into is not what the previous player base wanted. The previous minority PvP player base wanted an enviroment were they could... what's the term... wtfbbq pwn... other players. In the PvP environment prior to the I13 that was pretty much the only reason many of the PvPer's I came across were in the zones at all. They wanted the Ultima Online style of play where they could gank anybody, at any time. Going back to the start of CoH, it's easy to see where that mentality came from. Many of CoH's earliest aspects were designed to appeal to somebody who played Everyquest for fun. See this post : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...9&postcount=22 However, the actual amount of players willing to pay for that content... in a different game... well. It's not actually that large. Players who liked that experience will find that UO servers are still active : http://www.uoherald.com/news/ Now, whether or not you like it, and obviously from your posts you don't, the changes made to PvP in I13 better enabled actual player balance. It removed the auto-gank opportunities and put players on a more level playing field.. .which wasn't what the Old pvpers wanted... and... come on. Lets be honest, PvP play isn't Paragon Studio's strong point. Epic Stories, Team Challenges, and PvE content is what Paragon is strongest at... and it's what CoH was built for. My personal opinion is that the developers would be better off just dropping PvP play entirely. Contract the CoH brand out and have somebody else create a PvP game entirely separate from the RPG. Granted, I'm not sure how that would work in turning a tab-based game into a skill-based game... but it would probably be a better use of NCSoft's money. |
Wow, to think this thread was about power customization.....
lol
I never saw anyone mention this, but it only took me a few minutes of I16 to realize that power customization will be bad for PvP. Basically, it makes entry for new players even more difficult. It was already insanely hard for someone new to get into PvP, considering it's a completely separate and different game from PvE.
Now, there isn't even any consistency to anything. Any powerset can look like any other powerset. For me, it doesn't matter, since everything in the game is so engraved in my brain, I immediately recognize powers, regardless of what color they are. I'm sure other old school PvP'ers are the same. But what about new people? It just seems like this will ensure that we'll never get new additions to the PvP community. It's just too much work to learn the game at this point.
Is there a way to completely turn off all power customization, so that all powers appear as they normally do? That would be a good start.
Obviously the customization is good for the game overall, since it opens up so many options. I just feel it's going to kill PvP even more. I really can't imagine being a new player, trying to learn PvP in this game. Nothing works like it does normally, and now even all powers look different from how they're supposed to look. Poor, poor newbies