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Bad idea. Purples are not a major determinate of whether someone wins or loses in PvP. Many times purples aren't even a determinate at all. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I am probably the 100th non-PVP'er coming in and starting the 100th iteration of an old idea... but I had a thought for "starter" PVP. It may be a solution without a problem.
The alleged problem is "people with really expensive builds destroying new kids." The one time I tried arena PVP recently, there was a very helpful and expert PVP'er stomping me and my wife, both at once, with a permadom build. I'm quite certain they would have stomped me anyway, but we were just blatantly underpowered for the environment. One of the problems with getting new PVPers, presumably, is the barriers to entry. Skill is a valid barrier- if I'm not good, I should lose- but having to accumulate a billion inf, invest strategically, and THEN learn the skills is a bit rough. Obviously we can't set money limits, but we could have some limits that people could see and check.These are the ones I could come up with. UNLIMITED: Current standard. Play what you like. CLASS 49: Play what you like, as long as it's level 49 or less. This guarantees no purples. BASELINE: Level 49 or less, no set bonuses at all. Interesting idea? Stupid idea? Both? Neither? |
With the changes made in i13 you should do fine with a SO'ed out build as set bonuses are crippled by DR (diminishing returns).
As a PvE'r and zone farmer i'm personally disgusted by the changes they made in i13. Yes, I'd rather set bonuses not be a deciding factor in PvP. However, you'll find out very quickly that most of your powers (especially Mez's) that you enjoy in PvE are severely nerfed in PvP. PvP has become less about skill and more about who can dish out the most amount of damage in X amount of time.
If you and your spouse still want to participate in PvP, take into consideration What will dish out the most amount of damage in the least amount of time. Then consider which powersets compliment damage while also offering some means of support.
I'm not one to shoot down more options for folks, and I wouldn't really mind if those were added as options. They make sense, but really don't make the difference that they used to. Damage Procs make more of a difference than Purples do these days due to diminishing returns.
My only true concern is that if you have too many options before an arena battle you have to have a 15 minute argument about the settings before a 10 minute match (and then get another 5 minutes of griping, "You only won because of the settings.").
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I may have misstated... the idea was to have voluntary setups. "Tuesday night on Infinity is Baseline matches" or something.
Turns out to be a bad idea anyway... so no big deal.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I don't think the idea itself is bad. It might be worth it for some to demonstrate they can win without set bonuses. I have a lot of other concerns with PvP that I would like to see addressed before instituting anything like this though.
For a list of those concerns, please visit Macskull's excellent thread. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=130423
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Absolutely. I think the best solution for someone that truly wants to learn PvP is to make friends with one of the top PvP'ers, team with them, and learn from them. There are still people around that, even though they've become jaded by the devs' ignorance, will help out anybody that asks for help.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
having to accumulate a billion inf, invest strategically, and THEN learn the skills is a bit rough.
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The idea that you need billions to do well in PvP is a misconception, at least for normal PvP. For top-tier arena stuff, you're competing with the best, so you can't handicap yourself. But top-tier arena doesn't exist anymore at all, thanks to the devs. So that doesn't really matter.
The point is that in zones, if you're a good player, you can get by even with just SO's. I do. Of course I'm also probably the most oldschool PvP'er left in the game, so I do have the experience. But that can be learned.
Doing arena matches on SO'd toons vs purpled out doms isn't going to teach you very much. Instead, go to RV, get on a team with some good players (you can usually tell who they are), and do what they do. I think that's the best way to learn, and with a team backing you up, your handicap of having a cheap build will be covered up pretty well.
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Wow, that's not my experience although it may depend on what you mean by "getting by." Yeah I can go into RV on an SOed buffer and do alright because I know what I'm doing and am generally teamed up with good people. Lately I pretty much run around on my rad/pain dom in Siren's and I'm either solo or teamed with strangers.| The point is that in zones, if you're a good player, you can get by even with just SO's. I do. Of course I'm also probably the most oldschool PvP'er left in the game, so I do have the experience. But that can be learned. |
IOs make a huge difference on that toon. Fighting other people, I can tell right away whether they are IOed or not. Pre-IOs I was extremely squishy. With my build about halfway done, I can hang with most characters except purpled out blasters. And it's blatantly obvious when they are purpled out. IOs are still a big deal, it's a great distortion to say otherwise.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
Well of course they're a huge deal. Playing without them is like a handicap, and I did mention that. I just meant it's not impossible. You do have to be a better player than your opponent though.
SO only builds would be awesome.
I remember the years before IOs, everything was so balanced just using SOs.....less then 10 million and u were completly set. I wouldn't put as much time into it as i would normal pvp, but i would definitely invest some time into some characters so i could play it for fun.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
My thinking was this: SO's only would be on the honor system.
"No set bonuses" is something people can check. You can still get stuff like the frankenslotting example I always use, "1 acc/3 dam/2 rechred/1 end red in 5 slots". But it would really cut the expense required to join the fight.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
I remember the years before IOs, everything was so balanced just using SOs.....l |
You are joking, right?
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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The three best uses for IOs these days are +HP set bonuses (which accolades can partially help with), knockback protection, and damage procs, with KB protection being the most important of those if you're playing on a squishy.
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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Wow, that's not my experience although it may depend on what you mean by "getting by." Yeah I can go into RV on an SOed buffer and do alright because I know what I'm doing and am generally teamed up with good people. Lately I pretty much run around on my rad/pain dom in Siren's and I'm either solo or teamed with strangers.
IOs make a huge difference on that toon. Fighting other people, I can tell right away whether they are IOed or not. Pre-IOs I was extremely squishy. With my build about halfway done, I can hang with most characters except purpled out blasters. And it's blatantly obvious when they are purpled out. IOs are still a big deal, it's a great distortion to say otherwise. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Wow, that's not my experience although it may depend on what you mean by "getting by." Yeah I can go into RV on an SOed buffer and do alright because I know what I'm doing and am generally teamed up with good people. Lately I pretty much run around on my rad/pain dom in Siren's and I'm either solo or teamed with strangers.
IOs make a huge difference on that toon. Fighting other people, I can tell right away whether they are IOed or not. Pre-IOs I was extremely squishy. With my build about halfway done, I can hang with most characters except purpled out blasters. And it's blatantly obvious when they are purpled out. IOs are still a big deal, it's a great distortion to say otherwise. |
See, I disagree with this. I play a Fire/Pain with lvl 53 SOs (because I'm too freaking lazy to IO her out.) My friend plays a Sonic/Therm with only a few IOs (no sets just common IOs.) and we still **** PvP heroes (Blasters, lolregeners,) in the farm zones with their "uber" set bonuses.
Would our builds be more efficient being IOed out? sure. Would we still get owned by experienced team PvPers that have the best set bonuses IOs can offer? More than likely. But it is VERY rare to find experienced team oriented PvPers on virtue, let alone in the farm zones. So as long as i'm not trying to solo some blaster (Which is just stupid) You don't need the best set bonuses. Just team with someone.
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Pretty much this.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
See, I disagree with this. I play a Fire/Pain with lvl 53 SOs (because I'm too freaking lazy to IO her out.) My friend plays a Sonic/Therm with only a few IOs (no sets just common IOs.) and we still **** PvP heroes (Blasters, lolregeners,) in the farm zones with their "uber" set bonuses.
Would our builds be more efficient being IOed out? sure. Would we still get owned by experienced team PvPers that have the best set bonuses IOs can offer? More than likely. But it is VERY rare to find experienced team oriented PvPers on virtue, let alone in the farm zones. So as long as i'm not trying to solo some blaster (Which is just stupid) You don't need the best set bonuses. Just team with someone. |
I'm in no way shape or form a good PvP'er but I do decent in zones solo and of course with a team I do much better. I have a lol rad/son def that only has kb io's and a few +hp sets and I hold my own unless I'm against multiples while solo. Also before the dom "buffs", I used to use a SO'd Fire/Elec dom and get kills. IO's help get an edge but not really necessary to do decent.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. Real solution double drop rates across the board...I don't enjoy grinding for drops nor do most people. Real CoH players are here for the long run because we like the game and with the current state it can't hurt to make it easier to obtain our goals. I liked champions until they nerfed everything and made everything weak, maybe increase xp, drops, and effectiveness!
Surey Ios do help some but honestly if you are so new to pvp i would start with lower zones and when you get some gap of understanding would move to higher zones. I pvp for a while and still if i PL new toon, that i am not familiar with, even if i am aware what that toon can do, i still rather run that toon through SC--> WB-->RV before i enter arena on it.
1. it helps you to get used to your toon in pvp enviroment,
2. you can sort out what is usefull for you and what not
And as previous post said yes maybe we could get another option however you would spend hours arguing about this option with IOed out toon, i mean, why do I even IO out toon if i don't use it? It was same story with DR on/off options etc etc etc.
Personally, easiest SOed toon for me was..(oh plz no doom saying here) a stalker. If you get at least stealth IO you can easy pvp on one even with SOs. If you are new you probably still would die a lot but as stalker you have some more time for decision when to attack, when to get attack and you can simply observe other w/o engaging into fight.
GL and welcome to (uhoh handicapped) pvp 
Quote:
i agree.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
My only true concern is that if you have too many options before an arena battle you have to have a 15 minute argument about the settings before a 10 minute match (and then get another 5 minutes of griping, "You only won because of the settings.").
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the reason the old days are looked at so fondly is that pvp was so much simpler and easier to get into. level something up, buy some SOs(no more than 1-2m total), and go pvp. nowadays i wouldnt enter a zone without at least 3-4 -kb ios and a perception/stealth io if not a whole lot more.
all the arena options also had a divisive effect on the arena pvp community too. leaving it up to the players whether or not to turn off dr hd or ts brings out the fightclubber in everyone. you either play by their rules or go find someone who will play by yours. imo it was better when the rules were set in stone and we either built to win or we lost.
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
SO only builds would be awesome.
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SO only mode would just expose a handful of power combos to heavy nerfs because without IOs there is simply no counter to alot of builds.
after all nothing they said about pve not being balanced around IOs back in i9 applies to pvp. pvp of today is an arms race 1st and a game of chess 2nd.
sigs are amazing thing....
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Why hasn't that post been stickied?...it was "sticky-worthy" in May.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
For a list of those concerns, please visit Macskull's excellent thread. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=130423
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Has it been stickied and I'm just missing it??...I'm still figuring out this new forum software (new to me I mean). And why were the old NotPutzing and ColJasmine stickies copied over lol?
/threadjack
Interesting idea, but I think a "no set bonus" option in arena would cover most of the bases you listed. Personally I would never use it and think it would be a total waste of time but it would simplify your idea a bit.
Asking for a no purple option is a bit much if you ask me. They would have to be totally disabled because purps exemp down to level one. The class 49 idea wouldn't work.
Why does everyone think I'm advocating new switches in the software, instead of new ways of playing?
IF people agree that this is a good idea, THEN everyone makes characters that are level 49 or lower, turning off XP as needed, and IO's [or SO's] up their build so that they don't have 2 of a set, don't have any "single-slot powers" and don't, in short, get any set bonuses.
People can look at your character and see if you're street-legal.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
if you feel so strongly about it just take your level 50s to ouroboros and start a no enhancements arc before you go to a pvp zone. if everyone does it you'll get mostly the same result.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Why does everyone think I'm advocating new switches in the software, instead of new ways of playing?
IF people agree that this is a good idea, THEN everyone makes characters that are level 49 or lower, turning off XP as needed, and IO's [or SO's] up their build so that they don't have 2 of a set, don't have any "single-slot powers" and don't, in short, get any set bonuses. People can look at your character and see if you're street-legal. |
Oh. Sorry I misunderstood. The problem with your proposal is enforcement, especially in zones. You simply can't do it. All it takes is one or two people not playing by those artificial and unenforceable rules to ruin it for those that self-gimped. In an arena match, you could do it.
It might even be an interesting arena contest - level 49s only, no set bonuses. Everyone signs in at pocket D where a villain judge and a hero judge can make sure you fit the requirements. Announce it for a date 30 - 60 days in the future (or whatever) to give folks a chance to level up a toon.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I agree with that the best way to learn PvP is not to walk into a zone alone and wait to be hit, but to go with someone who has been to that zone before.
Sadly, the PvP population is very low, so it often hard to find anybody in a PvP zone AT ALL. (and which leads to a viscous circle: low pop -> hard to find a team -> hard for newcomers -> low pop)
And that also makes the original idea even more difficult. There is nothing there you could split in half or thrids and have anything left at all. At least not on the server I am on, but I hear it's a general problem.
(And PvP post I13 now being TOTALLY different from PvE doesnt help newcomers to PvP either)
I think a SO's only kinda of pvp tourney would be fun. Kinda would feel like the old days.
I am probably the 100th non-PVP'er coming in and starting the 100th iteration of an old idea... but I had a thought for "starter" PVP. It may be a solution without a problem.
The alleged problem is "people with really expensive builds destroying new kids." The one time I tried arena PVP recently, there was a very helpful and expert PVP'er stomping me and my wife, both at once, with a permadom build. I'm quite certain they would have stomped me anyway, but we were just blatantly underpowered for the environment.
One of the problems with getting new PVPers, presumably, is the barriers to entry. Skill is a valid barrier- if I'm not good, I should lose- but having to accumulate a billion inf, invest strategically, and THEN learn the skills is a bit rough.
Obviously we can't set money limits, but we could have some limits that people could see and check.These are the ones I could come up with.
UNLIMITED: Current standard. Play what you like.
CLASS 49: Play what you like, as long as it's level 49 or less. This guarantees no purples.
BASELINE: Level 49 or less, no set bonuses at all.
Interesting idea? Stupid idea? Both? Neither?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.