2009 Halloween Event Bugs and Feedback
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-10-01 18:02 in The Global Training Room Test Server
Quote:
You cannot imagine how much I hoped someone would pull that out of their hat. This claim of association to witchcraft has no basis but the reuse of the word Malleus, and you're coming after me on the claim of baseless speculation? Again, the Malleus Mundi is not the Malleus Maleficarium. The backstory given for the Malleus Mundi it has no relationship to the contents of the Malleus Maleficarium. The names to not mean the same thing, and are only related by the fact that both contain the word for "hammer".|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
Any claim that the Witches are behind the original Halloween event is just as much speculation.
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The Malleus Mundi was used to explain magical invasions for Halloween, and Halloween has fantasy witches associated with it, so we were given fantasy witch "monsters" to fight.
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| The article mentions several of the mystical groups that are already in the game as suspects |
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| but never mentions any mysterious witches as being seen with the Malleus Mundi. |
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| You are obfuscating because you don't like political correctness, and I find that to be every bit as misguided and harmful as someone putting meanings into words that are not there in the original context. |
Some degree of political correctness can have its place. This isn't one of them. You're defending what amounts to a conspiracy thoery with nothing other than circumstantial associations. You're assuming those associations have a necessarily sinister meaning, simply because you have found them. I think the very notion that you found sinister meaning when other alternatives appear obvious to me suggests you are barking up the wrong tree.
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You mean the article that links the "Malleus Mundi" to the Circle of Thorns, with no mention of witches at all?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No, the assembled context of the rest of the event, the NPC descriptions, and the backstory help me come to that opinion.
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| What idiocy is this? Did I say anything event remotely like that? No, I said that the "Malleus" badge is a reference to the "Malleus Mundi", not the "Malleus Maleficarium". |
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| Bull. You've found a connection between the word "Malleus", which are about completely different things, and witches - fantastic and "historic". The Malleus Mundi is used to explain interdimensional invasions now mysteriously associated with Halloween, of which pointy-hatted witches are iconic. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And Vampries, and Ghosts, and Werewolves, and Zombies - so why don't they give badges called "Malleus"? SHould "Malleus" be the name of an accolade for all the ToT mobs?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You cannot imagine how much I hoped someone would pull that out of their hat. This claim of association to witchcraft has no basis but the reuse of the word Malleus, and you're coming after me on the claim of baseless speculation? Again, the Malleus Mundi is not the Malleus Maleficarium. The backstory given for the Malleus Mundi it has no relationship to the contents of the Malleus Maleficarium. The names to not mean the same thing, and are only related by the fact that both contain the word for "hammer".
The Malleus Mundi was used to explain magical invasions for Halloween, and Halloween has fantasy witches associated with it, so we were given fantasy witch "monsters" to fight. |
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| The devs rarely give us the whole story on most of the game's mysteries. They leave much to innuendo, incomplete NPC narratives, and symbolism. The fact that defeating the witches gives the Malleus badge is itself a likely hint. |
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| You're defending what amounts to a conspiracy thoery with nothing other than circumstantial associations. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Look, I explained this. If the Halloween witches are a driving force behind the invasion, and if they are using the Malleus Mundi as a means of achieving it, then they get that badge because of their association with that "Malleus", not the Malleus Maleficarium.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And Vampries, and Ghosts, and Werewolves, and Zombies - so why don't they give badges called "Malleus"? SHould "Malleus" be the name of an accolade for all the ToT mobs?
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And where's any hint at all that the witches are behind the invasion? Why not the Vampires? or the Ghosts? Or the Werewolves? Or even Eochai and Jack?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Look, I explained this. If the Halloween witches are a driving force behind the invasion, and if they are using the Malleus Mundi as a means of achieving it, then they get that badge because of their association with that "Malleus", not the Malleus Maleficarium.
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And why wouldn't the badge be named something like "Broken Hammer", because we stop the invasion?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Did you actually read my previous posts?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And where's any hint at all that the witches are behind the invasion? Why not the Vampires? or the Ghosts? Or the Werewolves? Or even Eochai and Jack?
And why wouldn't the badge be named something like "Broken Hammer", because we stop the invasion? |
Go follow the link to the in-game description for the NPCs. (Edit: I mean here the color text for each NPC, not the (missing) description of the organization itself.) The ones that makes it clear that they are actually an organization with structure, not just "wandering monsters" the way most of the others are. They're magic using and organized. That's why pick them instead of the others, which don't have similar connotations in their descriptions.
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The Circle of Thorns are magic users and organized, and they're mentioned a lot in the background to the "Malleus Mundi" - the witches aren't.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Did you actually read my previous posts?
Go follow the link to the in-game description for the NPCs. (Edit: I mean here the color text for each NPC, not the (missing) description of the organization itself.) The ones that makes it clear that they are actually an organization with structure, not just "wandering monsters" the way most of the others are. They're magic using and organized. That's why pick them instead of the others, which don't have similar connotations in their descriptions. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Right, because Christmas is the ONLY holiday celebrated in December. I shall remember to remind the family celebrating Kwanza to wish each other a "Merry Christmas." That is such a load of bull it isn't even funny.|
Originally Posted by Robo_Knight
It's Merry Christmas, not, Happy Holidays.
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Also, I was about to come to your aid in this discussion regarding the Malleus badge... but after a comment like that, I will abstain. Rather, I will just say that I can see GG's point, but I don't see how it could be offensive. It is nothing more than a badge name (and is likely referring to the in-game book with the same name).
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Actually, you pulled it out of your hat. The charge of speculation was made in the post of yours that I quoted.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You cannot imagine how much I hoped someone would pull that out of their hat. This claim of association to witchcraft has no basis but the reuse of the word Malleus, and you're coming after me on the claim of baseless speculation? Again, the Malleus Mundi is not the Malleus Maleficarium. The backstory given for the Malleus Mundi it has no relationship to the contents of the Malleus Maleficarium. The names to not mean the same thing, and are only related by the fact that both contain the word for "hammer".
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The ONLY source for association of magic and the word malleus is the Malleus Malieficarium, that is where the inspiration for a magic text called the Malleus Mundi comes from. It's as simple as that, and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that.
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| None of which turned up as being involved. Fascinating. |
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
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Prove it.|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
The ONLY source for association of magic and the word malleus is the Malleus Malieficarium, that is where the inspiration for a magic text called the Malleus Mundi comes from. It's as simple as that, and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that.
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Edit... From Wikipedia:
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| The book became the handbook for witch-hunters and Inquisitors throughout Late Medieval Europe. Between the years 1487 and 1520, the work was published thirteen times. It was again published between the years of 1574 to 1669 a total of sixteen times. ...The Malleus Maleficarum asserts that three elements are necessary for witchcraft: the evil-intentioned witch, the help of the Devil, and the Permission of God. The treatise is divided up into three sections. The first section refutes critics who deny the reality of witchcraft, thereby hindering its prosecution. The second section describes the actual forms of witchcraft and its remedies. The third section is to assist judges confronting and combating witchcraft. However, each of these three sections has the prevailing themes of what is witchcraft and who is a witch. The Malleus Maleficarum can hardly be called an original text, for it heavily relies upon earlier works such as Visconti and, most famously, Johannes Nider's Formicarius (1435). |
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| In his newest book, The Hammer of the World: Incantations from the Abyss (Winthrop University Press, 2004), Professor of Esoteric Anthropology Dr. Nathaniel A. Bierce writes, "The obsession with the fabled city of Oranbega (Norembega) notwithstanding, it was always Baron Zoria's secret and ruthless search for various tomes of occult power that drove his ambitions (and thus alienated him from his contemporaries--Crowley, Blavatsky, Westcott and Mathers). The prize he sought above all was the 10th century 'vulgate' translation of an Akkadian text, known as Malleus Mundi. Or The Hammer of the World." According to Dr. Bierce, Baron Zoria obtained the "key" to this manuscript in the ruins of an obscure 13th century Templar castle in the south of France during the 1920's. However, he needed the complete text to unlock the powers that would "bring the worlds under my control." The tome was rumored to belong to various occult teachers and mystics throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, but the last owner of the Malleus Mundi was, to quote Dr. Bierce, "thought to have been none other than Zoria's one-time mentor, Grigori Yefimovich Rasputin. Though there is some doubt as to whether they had ever actually met. |
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Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
The article is purposefully vague, but your alternative explanation requires that all of those who were involved in the uneasy truce lost control of the book to a third party (general use of the term, since there were already three parties involved in the truce, making an outside group like the Coven technically a fourth party), which may be possible, but seems no more likely than one of those groups absconding with it and manipulating all of the players that we have actually fought from behind the curtain.
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| A magical tome of the reputed power of the Malleus Mundi can bind any magical entity to the will of the wielder, no matter how organized those entities may be. |
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Way to move your goal posts. I answered the question of why choose the Coven over ghosts, vampires, wolves and zombies, and you try to shift attention to the article in the times.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Circle of Thorns are magic users and organized, and they're mentioned a lot in the background to the "Malleus Mundi" - the witches aren't.
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That article was written before the very 1st invasion. In the fiction of the game world, the people who wrote that article had not yet encountered the Coven. They knew a magic-using organization was involved (through interpretation of portents), but did not know which one, and thus cast their suspicions on the ones they knew about.
In this article, the prediction of invasion is described without attribution to any group. Magic-using groups are mentioned as sources of research by which the prediction of invasion is made.
Could it have been the Circle, 5th Column, or the Tsoo? Sure. But nothing in the game has ever indicated that it was.
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It's the holiday I celebrate. I celebrate Christmas, so therefore, Merry Christmas.
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Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
Right, because Christmas is the ONLY holiday celebrated in December. I shall remember to remind the family celebrating Kwanza to wish each other a "Merry Christmas." That is such a load of bull it isn't even funny.
Also, I was about to come to your aid in this discussion regarding the Malleus badge... but after a comment like that, I will abstain. Rather, I will just say that I can see GG's point, but I don't see how it could be offensive. It is nothing more than a badge name (and is likely referring to the in-game book with the same name). |
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The idea that they could make a badge called "Malleus" for defeating witches and not have made a connection with the "Malleus Maleficarum" is just plain ridiculous.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Way to move your goal posts. I answered the question of why choose the Coven over ghosts, vampires, wolves and zombies, and you try to shift attention to the article in the times.
That article was written before the very 1st invasion. In the fiction of the game world, the people who wrote that article had not yet encountered the Coven. They knew a magic-using organization was involved (through interpretation of portents), but did not know which one, and thus cast their suspicions on the ones they knew about. In this article, the prediction of invasion is described without attribution to any group. Magic-using groups are mentioned as sources of research by which the prediction of invasion is made. Could it have been the Circle, 5th Column, or the Tsoo? Sure. But nothing in the game has ever indicated that it was. |
They based the LGTF on parts of the Book of Revelation, used obscue symbolism like Ouroboros, and had fun with wordplays, like with Mender Silos/Lord Nemesis, as well as having the entire game world being heavily linked to various mythologies - that they wouldn't be aware of the "Malleus Maleficarum" and the what it was about is simply not possible.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm not talking about the in-game story for inspiration, I mean that it was what inspired the game writers to name the book. I don't even have to ask them, it was the inspiration because there is no other source for an association of the word malleus with magic.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The time lines don't even match. All they have in common is being books about "magic" (quotes for the Malleus Malleficarium) and the word "Malleus" in their title. The Malleus Mundi is a book of incantations. The Malleus Malleficarium is a book about how to recognize and persecute women as witches. Assertions that the real book inspired the game one have no basis other than the tenuous link that the Coven grant the "Malleus" badge.
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I also want to point out that I'm not actually all that offended by the badge name, but I find your justification attempts humorous.
As for my claim about the book's power to bind the will of magical beings, it was used to usurp control over the creations of mad gods prior to the Halloween event. By the way, whoever among them was behind the Rularuu invasion never showed themselves during it. Funny how they didn't but the Coven did.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
Just a thought, but does it *really* matter if a totally irrelevant badge in a completely fictional world might possibly be inspired by a real but ancient book that the developers have almost certainly never actually seen? And let's not overlook that fact that "gaming culture" has happily swiped material from various mythologies for decades, often with little or no regard for the original context. In point of fact, I have seen the word Malleus used in connection with witches in other games. At some point, the association probably *was* based on research into the actual history of witches. At *this* point, the link might be based on nothing more sinister that that they saw it in some other game that did so (who got it from another game, which borrowed it from that game, which copied it from whoever actually looked it up to begin with.) It happens all the time.
Of course, attempting to throw a rational point into an irrational argument doesn't usually work, so feel free to carry on. This is almost as entertaining as the thread on that other board about whether the Enterprise could destroy the Death Star.
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You don't have to have seen it to know how evil it is - and it isn't that ancient either, which makes it even more horrible.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Just a thought, but does it *really* matter if a totally irrelevant badge in a completely fictional world might possibly be inspired by a real but ancient book that the developers have almost certainly never actually seen? And let's not overlook that fact that "gaming culture" has happily swiped material from various mythologies for decades, often with little or no regard for the original context. In point of fact, I have seen the word Malleus used in connection with witches in other games. At some point, the association probably *was* based on research into the actual history of witches. At *this* point, the link might be based on nothing more sinister that that they saw it in some other game that did so (who got it from another game, which borrowed it from that game, which copied it from whoever actually looked it up to begin with.) It happens all the time.
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And it doesn't how they came by the name in connection with witches - it's still a tasteless name for a badge.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
when does the event start?
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My guess is during Hero Con, or just after it - around the last week of October.
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Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
when does the event start?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The Event has traditionally started the second to last week of Oct. Last year, it was scheduled to start the 20th, but started early on 18th during HeroCon. The year before that, it started the 22nd. And the year before that on the 18th. HeroCon is a week later this year (starting the 25th). |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
My guess is during Hero Con, or just after it - around the last week of October.
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I'll be mildly ticked it they wait for HeroCon to start it.
And considering the competition... I think it's likely they'll start it as early as they can.
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This is, frankly, preposterous. This is like saying that every use of the suffix "-icon" in the title of a fictional book clearly had to be inspired by H.P. Lovecraft because it's the most recognizable book of magic with that of Latin in its name.|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
I'm not talking about the in-game story for inspiration, I mean that it was what inspired the game writers to name the book. I don't even have to ask them, it was the inspiration because there is no other source for an association of the word malleus with magic.
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| I also want to point out that I'm not actually all that offended by the badge name, but I find your justification attempts humorous. |
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| As for my claim about the book's power to bind the will of magical beings, it was used to usurp control over the creations of mad gods prior to the Halloween event. |
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| By the way, whoever among them was behind the Rularuu invasion never showed themselves during it. Funny how they didn't but the Coven did. |
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It might dawn on you that they had never actually heard of it. Very few people in the world have any education in the witch trials other than to generally know they happened and maybe that a lot of nearly certainly innocent people were killed. The existence of the Malleus Maleficarumisn't well known at all|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The idea that they could make a badge called "Malleus" for defeating witches and not have made a connection with the "Malleus Maleficarum" is just plain ridiculous.
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| They based the LGTF on parts of the Book of Revelation, used obscue symbolism like Ouroboros, and had fun with wordplays, like with Mender Silos/Lord Nemesis, as well as having the entire game world being heavily linked to various mythologies - that they wouldn't be aware of the "Malleus Maleficarum" and the what it was about is simply not possible. |
You know what I did tonight? I had the opportunity to have dinner with a friend of mine. She's pretty outspoken regarding things involving society's (and the world at large's) many injustices committed against women, from the truly monsterous down to the "small" and everyday. I figured I should to make sure I was not being completely insensitive here as a male taking a side in an argument relating to historical crimes focused on women, so before we hooked up I had decided I wanted her take on this. I had some genuine concern that she might agree with you on this.
First, I showed her the background for the "Maleficarum", then I showed her the in-game things we're discussing here. She saw where I was going before I could tell her about this thread. Do you know what her response was when shown the part requesting the badge be renamed? She literally "face palmed".
Now, that's an anecdote and I fully expect it to be taken with about four pounds of salt. I can't prove that story to you, but I'm going to tell you it made me feel way more confident in my position on this.
That said, I will now stop debating this here. This long ago reached a point comparable to arguments about religion or politics. I'm not convincing you of anything, and vice versa. That doesn't mean I won't speak up again if I happen to notice this matter raised elsewhere. (That could include far enough downthread in this same thread to have lost the local context of our exchanges here.) I don't think the badge should be changed over this. I don't really think it will be, and if somehow it is, I won't lose sleep over it, but I disagree with it and will try to speak out against it. Not to try and convince you, but provide a counter point for other readers, and possibly the devs.
And I'm sorry if my stance is aggravating. I just feel strongly about it.
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For everyone that's still going on about all of this political correctness crap, I have this to say.
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Quote:
It's Greek, not Latin |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is, frankly, preposterous. This is like saying that every use of the suffix "-icon" in the title of a fictional book clearly had to be inspired by H.P. Lovecraft because it's the most recognizable book of magic with that of Latin in its name.
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Also, I'd like to see a list of fictional books with the "icon" ending that weren't inspired by HPL - i'd be a pretty short list
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Does that mean the "Hunter" badge is a reference to the Vampires hunting us, and not us being Vampire hunters? And the "Buster" badge for the Ghosts is for them busting us, and not us being ghost busters?
This association between the two is of your making, and things of your making do not a call to action make.
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