Levels 1 to 6 are too early for IOs. [/deadpan]
Me I tend to avoid them until 10-12 (so level 13-15 ones), but 7 and up there are bargains to be had and slotted that can make the early levels much more interesting.
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The only buy-able pre-25 SOs are in the Faultline unlockable store, Mr. Yin's Market. There is 1 type of SO (Damage, Recharge, etc) per origin.
Level 15 IOs are pretty much the same/better than DOs, and won't expire unlike DO's or SOs. At those levels, I mostly go for Globals and procs, but I will make some to get the nice set bonuses too, especially if I get the recipe as a drop.
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I've always advocated DOs at levels 12 and 18(right or wrong). I combine at 18. I also start putting in bids at level 18 for a combination of common IOs and cheap IO sets. By the time I hit 22 most of my bids are filled. I then either plug the holes with SOs or if I happen to have some IO recipes, I craft what is useable. I often respec at level 22 as well, and just sell off all of my DOs for a little more capital to work with.
Mathematically, the turning point is 26 - any IO above lvl 26 is functionally similar to or better than an even level SO.
I tend to use store-bought stuff until I hit 22, where SO prices over the life of the character are greater than an up-front investment for IOs. That's particularly true for slots that will remain generic IOs until 50 - end mods in stamina, recharge reduction in hasten, that sort of thing. The slight increase in power you get from going for 30-45 IOs is offset by the reduced number of levels you'll be playing through with them and the increased cost.
I don't slot IOs until 30 (ie, from level 27). Except maybe for things like KO protection on squishies or Procs.
But that's because I don't pay for DOs or SOs since AE. When I need fresh ones, I just go do an MA arc or two and buy them with tickets. With maybe the odd recipe roll to see if I can add to the Inf I'm saving up.
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
Basic IO recipes, for any level, including EndMod, are available for purchase at any IO workbench.
At 43, I wouldn't be spending money on DOs.
SOs are available at stores in IP and Talos, at 25, (slottable at level 22) and villainside in Sharkshead.
Architect tickets may allow you to buy SOs earlier, I think.
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I'm answering your post name question "How early is too early for IO's?"
The obvious (but what some people will automatically give me flack about) is level 6.
I have slotted level 10 IO's on characters at level 7. Not fully, but some IO's here and there.
Is it worth it?
Yes, if you want them, if you have the influence for them, and/or if you don't want enhances that will expire. - or if you have them sitting around the base because you made some for a crafting badge.
I have tended to try to slot out my characters completely with level 20 IO's (so starting at level 17).
However, now that the leveling speed increase effects characters past level 20, I may be rethinking when I slot IO's.
It is very likely that some players will level up 5 or more levels on a good team before they have a chance to take a break and get more enhances. So having IO's means that you will at least get some benefit from enhances.
At the same time, is it worth waiting until you are a higher level instead of running around with IO enhances that are 5+ levels old?
I have a feeling that I will still be trying to slot with level 20 IO's and throw some in there at random at lower levels.
If I don't have the time, inf, salvage, etc to build IO, then I may or may not run to a store to buy some to slot until I get around to making or getting IO's from my base to slot them.
I IO'd out a level 17 Scrapper this week. First time I've ever IO'd out a toon with sets. Not exactly a massive improvement, but a few recovery/regeneration bonuses in addition to the better enhancement values seems to be making a noticeable difference. Not to mention that the salvage/recipes at those levels are dirt cheap.
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I regularly make level 15 IOs at level 12. They're as good as DOs which are the best you can buy at that time. When considering costs, remember you'd be buying DOs twice before you could get SOs at 22.
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If you intend to exemplar quite a bit, then getting low-end recipe pieces makes sense because the pieces will count towards set bonuses, except in cases where you exemplar past -3 levels of the given piece.
See ParagonWiki for Exemplar Effects on Enhancements.
-Johnny
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This is exactly what I was thinking, and it's good to hear it from someone else for reassurance.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I'm answering your post name question "How early is too early for IO's?"
The obvious (but what some people will automatically give me flack about) is level 6. I have slotted level 10 IO's on characters at level 7. Not fully, but some IO's here and there. Is it worth it? Yes, if you want them, if you have the influence for them, and/or if you don't want enhances that will expire. - or if you have them sitting around the base because you made some for a crafting badge. I have tended to try to slot out my characters completely with level 20 IO's (so starting at level 17). However, now that the leveling speed increase effects characters past level 20, I may be rethinking when I slot IO's. It is very likely that some players will level up 5 or more levels on a good team before they have a chance to take a break and get more enhances. So having IO's means that you will at least get some benefit from enhances. At the same time, is it worth waiting until you are a higher level instead of running around with IO enhances that are 5+ levels old? I have a feeling that I will still be trying to slot with level 20 IO's and throw some in there at random at lower levels. If I don't have the time, inf, salvage, etc to build IO, then I may or may not run to a store to buy some to slot until I get around to making or getting IO's from my base to slot them. |
My low IOs have kept my blaster from running out with nothing slotted when time didn't allow for changing. But I've sent my scrapper out with all slots empty before.
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This true for generic IO's.|
Originally Posted by Hart
Mathematically, the turning point is 26 - any IO above lvl 26 is functionally similar to or better than an even level SO.
|
However, double and triple aspect IO's can give a lot greater total bonuses (and flexibility) than generics. Rather than slot an accuracy, damage, and endurance reduction, wondering if you open yet another slot for recharge, a set of three set IO's in three slots can provide for all four of these aspects, and often give a higher percentage bonus in some of these aspects than generics alone. A level 20 triple-aspect set IO gives a higher total percentage (38.4%) than even a +3 SO (38.33%) or level 35 generic IO (36.7%).
I tend to slot double and triple-aspect (and the rare quad aspect, if it makes sense) right from the start. In the right combination and/or through frankenslotting, slot-for-slot they're superior to DO's/SO's as well as generic IO's, and the effects are quite noticeable in actual play (hit more, damage more, fewer endurance problems, and attack chains are faster).
Quote:
Totally agree with this observation.|
Originally Posted by Starflier
I IO'd out a level 17 Scrapper this week. First time I've ever IO'd out a toon with sets. Not exactly a massive improvement, but a few recovery/regeneration bonuses in addition to the better enhancement values seems to be making a noticeable difference. Not to mention that the salvage/recipes at those levels are dirt cheap.
|
(Edited to add: A simple case in point for one power, just at level 18.)
---
Character: Level 18 illusion controller
Power/attack: Spectral Wounds
Slots: 4, with Entropic Chaos Dam/End/Rech(21), Dam/Rech(21), Dam/End(21), Acc/Dam(20)
Bonuses: 63.1% damage (25.46 to 41.51), 16.0% accuracy (1.10x to 1.28x), 30.3% recharge (6.00 sec. to 4.61 sec.) and 30.3% endurance (6.86 usage to 5.27).
Total bonus percentages: 139.7% (Compare to four generic level 20 IO at 102.4%, or four not-yet-attainable +0 SO at 133.32%, or four +3 DO at a paltry 76.64%)
Additional set bonuses: Improves regeneration by 10%, increases maximum endurance by 2.25%. And one more (already crafted and next to be slotted!) for the full set of five will also improve the recharge time of all powers by 6.25%.
It's noticeable!
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My initial reaction to this post was 'it's cheaper to buy DO's twice then to craft level 15 IO's once'. I decided to test my gut feeling before posting, however. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I regularly make level 15 IOs at level 12. They're as good as DOs which are the best you can buy at that time. When considering costs, remember you'd be buying DOs twice before you could get SOs at 22.
|
It costs 286,500 to purchase all DO's at 12th and 18th. I used 10 Acc, 5 damage, 5 end reduction as a base.
It costs 139,100 to purchase the same number of level 15 IO recipes. With the exception on Luck Charms(current going rate 50k) Only Spell Scrolls are a bit expensive....perhaps 15k for five of them if you're patient.
Lets say you've been lucky, and have found five Luck Charms. You are even more lucky, and manage to purchase five more at 25,000 each. That's 125,000, plus 139,100, plus 15,000(for the Spell Scrolls), plus a couple of grand more for the rest of the salvage.....This isn't even taking into account the crafting cost, plus the amount of time invested in crafting all of these IOs. For my money and time, I'll continue to purchase DOs at levels 12 and 18. It's easy, cheap, and far less time consuming.
One caveat...I frequently put up lowball bids on level 15 IOs when making an alt....sometimes I get some...other times I don't.
Caveat two: I like accuracy early on. This is a personal preference, and most powers have at least two accuracy DOs. Luck Charms are obviously an expensive part of this type of slotting.
I hate fading when I level up (with a passion), and I have a crafter that negates the cost of buying recipes. I didn't go into detail about how I get my IOs because I didn't have the time.
Cost is relative when it's a game with simulated bits and bytes. It doesn't cost me much to do something I'd be spending time on anyway (selling what drops I get, crafting some things to sell them ready made).
You're right that if I flat out bought things from a standing start it would cost more. With a little thought and planning, it costs less, and that leads to just as much sense of accomplishment as blowing through a mission.
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Don't forget that you can regularly get SOs below 25 at the market. I sort enhancements by my origin and +3 to my level, and find a lot of good stuff at pretty cheap prices. You can't guarantee what will be in stock, and I can't say that I've ever SO'd out my build in this manner, but you can get some good SOs in those important powers. The market's also good for greening out SOs at those 'yellow levels'; 21, 26, etc.
SOs below 25 will drop occasionally, and the Faultline arc awards 4 SOs at its conclusion that are maxed for your level. We try to run the Faultline arc as early as possible to get those 4 SOs at low levels where they're VERY useful. What we usually do is have all team members that are able run the Faultline arc together, autocompleting all duplicate missions along the way, except the last one.
If you manage to pull that off with a team of 8 all autocompleting the same arc, then run that last mish 8 times, that's *32* SOs awarded, max green, for each character.
.
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I cannot dispute your experience. Lets just agree that either option is viable. One last little caveat....for the most part, players are the 'must get now' crowd. With that in mind, I still think my method is easier....not better...just easier.
|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I hate fading when I level up (with a passion), and I have a crafter that negates the cost of buying recipes. I didn't go into detail about how I get my IOs because I didn't have the time.
Cost is relative when it's a game with simulated bits and bytes. It doesn't cost me much to do something I'd be spending time on anyway (selling what drops I get, crafting some things to sell them ready made). You're right that if I flat out bought things from a standing start it would cost more. With a little thought and planning, it costs less, and that leads to just as much sense of accomplishment as blowing through a mission. |
Quote:
Your caveat is my Standard Operating Procedure. I go the IO route as soon as I can. I start low-ball bidding on level 15 IOs ASAP - several levels before I can even use them. I always check the crafting prices Vs the market price and compare. If crafting is cheaper, I'll do that. If I do it without twinking I sometimes have some holes filled by non-IOs or even just empty, but sometimes that's less about influence/supply than it is about my being too lazy/busy/character swappy to go to the market. I very nearly always do it without twinking simply because I don't care enough and am too lazy to worry about it. Influence falls on my characters like rain in Seattle, but I would rather be patient and wait a night or two than spend my playing time transferring it back and forth. The one thing I will nearly always transfer influence for is a knock back resistance IO. Otherwise, I don't worry about it.
|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
My initial reaction to this post was 'it's cheaper to buy DO's twice then to craft level 15 IO's once'. I decided to test my gut feeling before posting, however.
It costs 286,500 to purchase all DO's at 12th and 18th. I used 10 Acc, 5 damage, 5 end reduction as a base. It costs 139,100 to purchase the same number of level 15 IO recipes. With the exception on Luck Charms(current going rate 50k) Only Spell Scrolls are a bit expensive....perhaps 15k for five of them if you're patient. Lets say you've been lucky, and have found five Luck Charms. You are even more lucky, and manage to purchase five more at 25,000 each. That's 125,000, plus 139,100, plus 15,000(for the Spell Scrolls), plus a couple of grand more for the rest of the salvage.....This isn't even taking into account the crafting cost, plus the amount of time invested in crafting all of these IOs. For my money and time, I'll continue to purchase DOs at levels 12 and 18. It's easy, cheap, and far less time consuming. One caveat...I frequently put up lowball bids on level 15 IOs when making an alt....sometimes I get some...other times I don't.... |
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On Triumph, both red and blueside I have a 'private' SG which is for my wife and I. In each there is an inventory kept of level 15 IOs, level 25s and level 35s.
Once the inventory gets taken down, my crafter in the SG just loads it back up.
Outside of characters in those SG's I tend to memorise one or two crafting badges, keep a turnover of buying crafting selling for inf going, and place bids on common IOs in advance of the need.
Getting a level 25 IO for below the costs of a similar level 25 SO is fairly usual. Getting level 15s for below DO pricing is very common with a few days of patience. I thank the badgers for this, you really should be more patient with your sales, but who am I to judge, I'll keep on profiting from your mistakes.
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Quote:
The biggest benefit you'll get is that the enhancements won't degrade as you level up so there won't be as much pressure to re-slot when you out-level DOs and SOs, which helps in the teens since you can level relatively quickly. I also have a level 50 with all the crafting memorization badges which helps with the cost a lot since you can usually get all the cash you need to do it for level 15s in one or two mission runs unless salvage is running really high. Architect tickets are good for that too still if you wanna run one of those. If I didn't have him, I would probably stick to DOs and SOs until level 30 or 35 when common IOs are almost always better than SOs (+3 SOs can still beat IOs until level 35ish i think). But IOs are almost always better that DOs at the lower levels.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
I have IOs in a blaster of mine that are level 15. They are pretty good for that range with a 19% in one area. They cost me around 30k each maybe.
But does that make any sense? I already feel they're stale compared to the SOs that I could pick up [If I knew which tech store had that lev]. And the sets, some of them start at 16. I think I might be before the point of non-diminishing returns here. I have three core toons. A 43 scrapper, a 23 blaster, and a 18 scrapper. My 43 is almost exclusively DO and SO. My 23 is totally IOs though I'm having a hard time finding EndMod. My 18 is just random crap, he's claws and has been levelling so fast I've taken him on mishs with absolutely nothing slotted [and he did fine.] Thoughts? |
Personally I don't worry too much about IO sets until level 50. I just figure I only want to go to the trouble of sorting all those out once and I want them to be the best when I do. Common IOs do more than fine 99% of the time anyways. But thats your preference there. If you can afford the sets, and you want to spend the time to work it out, the set bonuses will help some as well.
To avoid the cost of Luck Charms (and let someone else eat their cost) at level 10 I sell all my salvage and put bids in at 1555 for Level 15 accuracy IOs and have always gotten every one that I needed before level 12. I do the same for Recharge Reduction, End Reduction and Damage and usually I get most of what I need of them too.
People who are getting badges provide a large source for low cost low level IOs. If I get a Luck Charm early at level 5 or so I will sell it and put in bids at 555 for the level 10 IOs and I get a lot of them too. Then I replace them with 15s. Patience is the key in using the Market. Put up your bids early and walk away.
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As far as set IOs, I will slot them as early as 15. A level 21 dual aspect IO has a total enhancement value greater than that of an SO. As long as I value both aspects, I'll slot a dual aspect IO at 18 and never have to worry about it again (although it will surely get replaced in the 30s-40s). Two level 21 DAM/ACC IOs are better than one Damage SO and one Accuracy SO, and can be slotted 4 levels earlier and never wear out. Obviosly this isn't optimal if one of the aspects of the IO is less useful (range, end, recharge on a toggle/auto).
Similarly, a triple aspect IO at level 18 (slotted at 15) provides more benefit than an equivalent SO.
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Quote:
You're yet another player who prefers to look at dual and triple aspect IO's as early as possible. I'm in your camp.|
Originally Posted by Eek a Mouse
As far as set IOs, I will slot them as early as 15. A level 21 dual aspect IO has a total enhancement value greater than that of an SO. As long as I value both aspects, I'll slot a dual aspect IO at 18 and never have to worry about it again (although it will surely get replaced in the 30s-40s). Two level 21 DAM/ACC IOs are better than one Damage SO and one Accuracy SO, and can be slotted 4 levels earlier and never wear out. Obviosly this isn't optimal if one of the aspects of the IO is less useful (range, end, recharge on a toggle/auto).
Similarly, a triple aspect IO at level 18 (slotted at 15) provides more benefit than an equivalent SO. |
What I'm gathering from this thread so far is whether you invest in DO's or SO's or IO's or IO sets/frankenslots depends a lot on how quickly you level. The more patient players tend to slot IO's/sets for their characters as early as possible while those who quickly rise to the 30's and above tend to be more expedient about it.
From a personal player viewpoint, with only 7 characters rolled over as many months, I like to play my characters more slowly and gradually bestow IO benefits upon them so I can enjoy playing them more at the lower, sometimes "more difficult" levels, both solo and in team.
At the same time, those characters rising very quickly between levels might be better off holding off on obtaining or completing their IO sets until they reach their pinnacle.
Just a thought.
I IO out my toons from lvl 7 on (during the AE madness, I did not enhance some toons before they hit lvl 47). I always do this by playing a lot of alts and leaving each alt sitting with minimum bids for the IOs they need. WHen I come back 2-3 weeks later, they have always bought the IOs they need. I do this until lvl 32 or 47 when I do buy sets for the toon.
If you can wait 2-3 weeks for your IOs, they are always A LOT cheaper than SOs or DOs. And I never have to have them run out for me... or do stupid store mishes and things like that
An added bonus is that the toon always have fresh patrol XP when I come back (actually that's my rule, I do not come back to a toon until they have filled their patrol xp bars)
I have IOs in a blaster of mine that are level 15. They are pretty good for that range with a 19% in one area. They cost me around 30k each maybe.
But does that make any sense? I already feel they're stale compared to the SOs that I could pick up [If I knew which tech store had that lev]. And the sets, some of them start at 16.
I think I might be before the point of non-diminishing returns here.
I have three core toons. A 43 scrapper, a 23 blaster, and a 18 scrapper. My 43 is almost exclusively DO and SO. My 23 is totally IOs though I'm having a hard time finding EndMod. My 18 is just random crap, he's claws and has been levelling so fast I've taken him on mishs with absolutely nothing slotted [and he did fine.]
Thoughts?