Quote:
1) Yes|
Originally Posted by Andferne
1) Do all classes cap at 45%? Scrappers, Tankers, Defenders, etc
2) How far over is too far? 48% Defenses too much? what about 58-60 (if possible)? 3) I know it means that you get hit less with higher defense. Is everything after 45% like a diminishing return. Meaning you don't get as much for the points after that mark? |
2) Some builds aim for a defense closer to 50% to cover defense debuffs, but 45% is a good stopping point, especially if you're not restricting yourself from using inspirations.
3) Defense over 45% does nothing unless you're suffering from defense debuffs or your enemies have tohit buffs.
Quote:
Right, it won't be a worry. You're not a Regen Scrapper, so getting locked in a long animation is exceedingly unlikely to kill you, particularly with high defenses. Oh, sure, it might happen some day if you play enough. Maybe. Still worth it for a good AoE with a low endurance cost.|
Originally Posted by Andferne
Reading through some of the older threads and similar things. I got a concern about Shadow Maul, because of its long animation sequence. With the current build I have right now (which is crappy in the defense department) IF shadow maul ends up missing by some chance it can hurt when I get swamped by attacks. 3-4 lts and 2 bosses hitting me at once during that animation sucks. Though rare that is.
Now I imagine with a higher defense that occurrence would happen even less. So I guess it really should not be a worry once things are fixed. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Andferne
I do have a question about Caped Defense. I know yall have said it caps at 45% so here are my questions if you don't mind.
1) Do all classes cap at 45%? Scrappers, Tankers, Defenders, etc 2) How far over is too far? 48% Defenses too much? what about 58-60 (if possible)? 3) I know it means that you get hit less with higher defense. Is everything after 45% like a diminishing return. Meaning you don't get as much for the points after that mark? |
In practice, it isn't always wasted, because there are defense debuffs, and because some enemies have over a 50% chance to hit (+6 and above, pets, AVs with some form of build up, some custom enemies in Architect Entertainment, etc.).
And the actual formula for calculating the chance to hit is more complicated than what I've presented. But the part that matters insofar as defense goes is pretty much what I described.
For all the gory details:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
And even better:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=121258
As for the answer to #2, it really depends. If you have good defense debuff resistance (possible with Shields) and don't play Architect Entertainment, I'd probably target a flat 45%, or at most an extra couple percentage points.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Dersk and Werner thanks for the info. As well as the links Werner.
I've reworked things once again (I think I'm addicted to Mids now >_< lol).
lose conserve power and laser beam eyes, then you could add Focused accuracy with Guasians set for big time defense help, also look at physical perfection.
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
Quote:
I want to keep Laser Eye Beams as it falls into the character concept of what I want. I tossed around the idea of having Focused Accuracy instead of Conserve Power. But from what I have heard it drains a lot more endurance than say Tactics. Which will be slotted with the Gaussian's set.|
Originally Posted by pyrite
lose conserve power and laser beam eyes, then you could add Focused accuracy with Guasians set for big time defense help, also look at physical perfection.
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Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought both of those two set ups I posted as caped defenses for Melee, Range, and AoE. So not sure why I would still need help in defense?
What do you mean by look at Physical Perfection? One of them has it fully slotted and the other one just three times. I'm not sure what you mean by the statement. Do you think I would be slotted it with something different?
edit
Made a few small corrections to your build in the name of endurance reduction and recovery. You'd be better off slotting Performance Shifter in Physical Perfection with the proc, on average it gives more endurance than regular enhancements.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
See you learn something new every day. Thanks for the heads up. ^_^
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Made a few small corrections to your build in the name of endurance reduction and recovery. You'd be better off slotting Performance Shifter in Physical Perfection with the proc, on average it gives more endurance than regular enhancements.
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Quote:
I only tweaked two things. Firstly, putting slots in Boxing makes puppies cry, so I put them into LBE with a set of Decimation which actually gives slightly more global recharge. This also makes the power at least usable, which I assume would be something you'd want since it's important for concept. If you'd rather keep the slots in Boxing and you're not going to slot LBE to be useable, then I suggest trading it out for a more useful power. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
Made a few small corrections to your build in the name of endurance reduction and recovery. You'd be better off slotting Performance Shifter in Physical Perfection with the proc, on average it gives more endurance than regular enhancements.
|
I then moved one slot from PP to Weave to get the 9% Acc bonus. I moved a second slot from PP over to CP, as you'll actually have better end management with CP being up much more quickly than with the 0.06 eps gain from the the third slot in PP.
Code:
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Quote:
lmao at makes puppies cry.|
Originally Posted by Gaidin
I only tweaked two things. Firstly, putting slots in Boxing makes puppies cry, so I put them into LBE with a set of Decimation which actually gives slightly more global recharge. This also makes the power at least usable, which I assume would be something you'd want since it's important for concept. If you'd rather keep the slots in Boxing and you're not going to slot LBE to be useable, then I suggest trading it out for a more useful power.
I then moved one slot from PP to Weave to get the 9% Acc bonus. I moved a second slot from PP over to CP, as you'll actually have better end management with CP being up much more quickly than with the 0.06 eps gain from the the third slot in PP. |
Oh I really like LBE being slotted instead of Boxing. I didn't think to look further down in the levels to see if that power has a recharge timer set.
I thought about throwing more stuff in the sets for Luck of Gambler to get the accuracy. But I was thinking with the Kismet unique to help to hit along with Tactics (if I keep it active) then I really would not need that extra accuracy.
Was unsure about slotting Conserve Power more than the default one. As I don't know how my End will be with this set up. I'm thinking with the extra toggles that I'll be running it might come in handy. Right now with the build I have (the crappy one) I don't have any End problems, but of course I don't have Tough or Weave on that one. I hear that Weave can be an End drainer.
Quote:
That is actually a really good idea! I hate being mind fragged due to massive quantities of studying! Damn you mechanical engineering! |
Originally Posted by Gaidin
I only tweaked two things. Firstly, putting slots in Boxing makes puppies cry, so I put them into LBE with a set of Decimation which actually gives slightly more global recharge. This also makes the power at least usable, which I assume would be something you'd want since it's important for concept. If you'd rather keep the slots in Boxing and you're not going to slot LBE to be useable, then I suggest trading it out for a more useful power.
I then moved one slot from PP to Weave to get the 9% Acc bonus. I moved a second slot from PP over to CP, as you'll actually have better end management with CP being up much more quickly than with the 0.06 eps gain from the the third slot in PP. Code:
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
I only tweaked two things. Firstly, putting slots in Boxing makes puppies cry, so I put them into LBE with a set of Decimation which actually gives slightly more global recharge. This also makes the power at least usable, which I assume would be something you'd want since it's important for concept. If you'd rather keep the slots in Boxing and you're not going to slot LBE to be useable, then I suggest trading it out for a more useful power.
I then moved one slot from PP to Weave to get the 9% Acc bonus. I moved a second slot from PP over to CP, as you'll actually have better end management with CP being up much more quickly than with the 0.06 eps gain from the the third slot in PP. Code:
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Over all your end numbers are good, however your power selection and slotting to get you those numbers is (not to be rude) horrid.
--You're skipping DMs most devastating attack, Midnight Grasp. You picked up Shadow Maul instead, which is just fine if you want to sacrifice your massive Superior damage attack (that takes 1 second less to animate) for a longer animation attack that does a Fraction of the damage you COULD be doing.
--You have enough Acc in your attacks that you don't need that 4th slot of LotG in Weave. Really.
--2 slotting performance shifters in Pysical Perfection give you +5% to travel speeds. Slotting 2 Efficacy Adaptors will give you more HPs.
--Drop a slot from Active defense, take out the Recharge IO and put in an Enzyme HO for more defense debuff resistance. (alternately you could keep the slot and just slot 2 Enzymes)
--Siphon Life is a self heal, your slotting it straight up for damage and completely underestimating the value of those added HPs you could gain from slotting it with some form of +Heal.
--If you have stamina and physical perfection, you don't need conserve power. however if you're bound and determined, drop it down to slot of recharge.
--I imagine (hope) you're using Ninja Run as you have no travel power (good luck with those master runs) I'd recommend if you haven't already done so to have a handy hot key to toggle NR off/on in heavy fighting. Save on the end.
--You seem to also be missing Dark Consumption, another amazing power from DM. Picking that up could gain you more room for +Def set bonuses and dropping the need for PP freeing up even more power selections.
--Unless you plan to pvp you won't need tactics.
--If you have the money I'd switch those LotGs out for 3 slotting Shield Walls, an extra 15 hps per power.
This all being said, there are many ways to set this build up and if you're happy with how it plays then I'm happy for you. Just saying it's easily possible to alter the build and do things even more efficiently.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
His build is for concept so that is why he excluded certain powers.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Evening guys!
Ok finally have had a chance to sit down and rework my build agains. I havent seen a huge effect on the DDR effect when I am soloing AV's or farming with my former build but toying around with it again I added a slot to TG and put in the RT unique and added 2 slots to AD to bump my DDR to over 53%.
What do you think now?
Code:
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You should probably slot True Grit a bit more but I can't really see any slots to move around with out drastically altering your build 
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
With this statement, you've effectively shown that your post is a knee-jerk reaction and that you didn't read AndFerne's build requirements, most of which are concept-oriented.|
Originally Posted by _Force_
Over all your end numbers are good, however your power selection and slotting to get you those numbers is (not to be rude) horrid.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--You're skipping DMs most devastating attack, Midnight Grasp. You picked up Shadow Maul instead, which is just fine if you want to sacrifice your massive Superior damage attack (that takes 1 second less to animate) for a longer animation attack that does a Fraction of the damage you COULD be doing.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--You have enough Acc in your attacks that you don't need that 4th slot of LotG in Weave. Really.
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I was sorely tempted to remove the last extra slot from PP and put it into Maneuvers to get another 9% Acc bonus, which would put him at 95.1% Acc vs. +4 mobs without using Tactics.... In retrospect, I actually would do this and AndFerne can opt to do so if he chooses. Not using Tactics, unless the team needs it, would save a great deal on End usage.
In all of the builds I make, I attempt to get to 95% Acc for all attacks vs. +4 mobs pre-Build Up/SD/external buffs. Missing lowers DPS. I also build with the goal of AV/Pylon soloing in mind, and so does Santorican who posted the first incarnation of this particular build.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--2 slotting performance shifters in Physical Perfection give you +5% to travel speeds. Slotting 2 Efficacy Adaptors will give you more HPs.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--Drop a slot from Active defense, take out the Recharge IO and put in an Enzyme HO for more defense debuff resistance. (alternately you could keep the slot and just slot 2 Enzymes)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--Siphon Life is a self heal, your slotting it straight up for damage and completely underestimating the value of those added HPs you could gain from slotting it with some form of +Heal.
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I looked at slotting differently - Red Fortune in one Def toggle, one less slot in Deflection and Battle Agility, and 4 Kinetic Combats in SL with a Heal IO, and while softcap to all positions is maintained, the enhancement values are then quite sub-par and he needs SL slotted well as an attack as it is his hardest hitting attack without MG.
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--If you have stamina and physical perfection, you don't need conserve power. however if you're bound and determined, drop it down to slot of recharge.
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--You seem to also be missing Dark Consumption, another amazing power from DM. Picking that up could gain you more room for +Def set bonuses and dropping the need for PP freeing up even more power selections.
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--Unless you plan to pvp you won't need tactics.
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Originally Posted by _Force_
--If you have the money I'd switch those LotGs out for 3 slotting Shield Walls, an extra 15 hps per power.
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Well you're right, I didn't see that he wanted to have a concept build.
Now that being said, I do hope you are making all those comments because you do indeed have a DM/SD in game and aren't just looking at numbers from mids because that's what it seems. Looking at mids and checking numbers is very different than playing the real thing. Dropping a power here or changing some set bonuses around was not me saying that he'd lose those set bonuses completely, there are plenty or ways to get the desired numbers from a build. Sometimes you just have to think outside the box.
I'm not going to go over your "knee-jerking" replys to all of my comments, I'm sure all your comments may have some measure of truth to the matter, but so did mine. It would seem that he's going for a concept build, and some of my comments don't fit his criteria. They are still good comments for anyone else however.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Tonight I was finally ready to respec my character into the build above. Buying the last several Obliteration pieces that I needed. I must say that my first night runs with this new build, were amazing! My old set up I was farming a Praetorian Demon mission to earn the money to change things up. I ran it by myself or with friends nightly. Solo I could normally run it as +1(x8) with only rare problems. Going higher than that slowed down things too much for it to be worth while.
However now with this set up tonight I started at +2(x8) just to see how things went. Not only was it easier, but I was killing mobs (even with 2 bosses) a lot faster. Settings wise the +3(x8) now feels like the +1(x8) used to. I can run the +4(x8) but again the time it takes compared to +3 is not worth it. imo as it takes longer for the Bosses to drop for me.
Overall I really love the set up. Thank you everyone for the help in building it! =^_^=
Now to earn the money to tweak out (and later level up) my Tanker SD/SS. =D
Bravo Fern bravo, welcome to the dark side my young padawan.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Instead of making yet another dm/sd help thread, I thought maybe I'd throw my own build on the end of this seeing as how ferne seems pretty happy with the way his build is going 
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I'm having a little trouble soft-capping without pvp ios (seeing as how they're just to expensive for 1 recipe). Here's my build, recharge levels are good, recovery is managable I think. The only thing I would perfer not to change is having energy torrent w/ FFB proc if thats at all possible, otherwise I'm game for any other changes. Having a travel power would be nice.
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Minor changes, lost 5% rech added in softcap def, added Super Speed. Droped CJ for Maneuvers (unless you prefer the added vertical Maneuvers give slightly more +def than CJ)|
Originally Posted by doomrider
Instead of making yet another dm/sd help thread, I thought maybe I'd throw my own build on the end of this seeing as how ferne seems pretty happy with the way his build is going
.I'm having a little trouble soft-capping without pvp ios (seeing as how they're just to expensive for 1 recipe). Here's my build, recharge levels are good, recovery is managable I think. The only thing I would perfer not to change is having energy torrent w/ FFB proc if thats at all possible, otherwise I'm game for any other changes. Having a travel power would be nice. |
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Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
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Yes, I do have a DM/SD at 43 and it is the most devastating toon I have ever played or witnessed being played...and I love it. |
Originally Posted by _Force_
Now that being said, I do hope you are making all those comments because you do indeed have a DM/SD in game and aren't just looking at numbers from mids because that's what it seems. Looking at mids and checking numbers is very different than playing the real thing. Dropping a power here or changing some set bonuses around was not me saying that he'd lose those set bonuses completely, there are plenty or ways to get the desired numbers from a build. Sometimes you just have to think outside the box.
I'm not going to go over your "knee-jerking" replys to all of my comments, I'm sure all your comments may have some measure of truth to the matter, but so did mine. It would seem that he's going for a concept build, and some of my comments don't fit his criteria. They are still good comments for anyone else however. |
Looking at numbers does show what you will most likely be capable of in-game. Player ability decides how close to the numbers suggested performance you will actually be for non-static factors. Static factors, such as end gain and end consumption, if using a certain attack chain plus toggle cost, can and will be reliably calculated solely from looking at the numbers.
Many of your suggestions were actually fine, but not relevant to the build in question. The points you made about needing CP and the slotting in PP were completely false, and the numbers will show this to be true. In-game experience is fine, but the numbers are factual and don't lie.
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OK, giving it one more go. Right now I am using my previous build for farming but have run into a few AV's that are giving me trouble (looking at you Malaise and Seige). I may have to use this on test first before committing to it though since I love tossing out fireball after SC.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
You should probably slot True Grit a bit more but I can't really see any slots to move around with out drastically altering your build
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False? It's a little power called Dark Consumption, you don't need CP, you don't need PP. In fact, for several month I ran a fully IO'd/purple/pvp IO'd out DM/SD WITHOUT fitness, using Blaze Mastery. And thanks to DC, end was perfectly managable. But hey, you have one at level 43 so you haven't played one in that way to know that. Mids can only do so much, after awhile you kinda have to stop looking at numbers and give advice from ingame experiance. It's an interesting concept. Try it.
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
Many of your suggestions were actually fine, but not relevant to the build in question. The points you made about needing CP and the slotting in PP were completely false, and the numbers will show this to be true. In-game experience is fine, but the numbers are factual and don't lie.
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Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Now I imagine with a higher defense that occurrence would happen even less. So I guess it really should not be a worry once things are fixed. I'll have to give a look over things again to see what to switch out to include shadow maul once more. Good thing is at least I have learned my lesson about buying things early. I'm not worried about buying anything until I know for sure what I want. lol
I do have a question about Caped Defense. I know yall have said it caps at 45% so here are my questions if you don't mind.
1) Do all classes cap at 45%? Scrappers, Tankers, Defenders, etc
2) How far over is too far? 48% Defenses too much? what about 58-60 (if possible)?
3) I know it means that you get hit less with higher defense. Is everything after 45% like a diminishing return. Meaning you don't get as much for the points after that mark?