City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Dark/Shield Help again

American_Dynamo

By American_Dynamo,
Posted on: 2009-09-20 20:12 in Scrappers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
In-game experience is fine, but the numbers are factual and don't lie.
Yeah, even as a hard core number cruncher, I'd never go that far. Numbers may be facts, but IN-GAME is where the rubber meets the road. You can't claim you won a race by pointing out that your car has the highest horsepower and the most grip. You have to actually get out there and race. Numbers can only take you so far.

As an example, the best answer I could get to the question "Is my endurance sustainable?" on my Katana/Dark from Mids' and spreadsheets was "maybe". There were just too many variables for me to be certain. I had to actually build it and play it to find out. The real answer is "most of the time, but not always".

For the most part, though, yes, my Mids', spreadsheet and in-game experience pretty much match note-for-note.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Hey force, I was toying with the idea of taking the blaze mastery on my DM/SD. Would we be able to work it into the build I posted?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomrider View Post
Hey force, I was toying with the idea of taking the blaze mastery on my DM/SD. Would we be able to work it into the build I posted?
As requested.

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Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...

 

Posted

I'd slot PS into Stamina with the proc, you'll get more endurace recovery over time than with efficacy adapter.

Also you're going to have a hell of a time hitting a lot of targets with such low global accuracy bonuses and no slotting for accuracy in Soul Drain

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
I'd slot PS into Stamina with the proc, you'll get more endurace recovery over time than with efficacy adapter.

Also you're going to have a hell of a time hitting a lot of targets with such low global accuracy bonuses and no slotting for accuracy in Soul Drain
Correct on the Stamina slotting.

Although with the 30% Acc from the 2 purple sets you should be fine. With that slotting of Soul Drain in my build I have never had any sort of a problem whatsoever hitting targets for the boost. And if you find yourself in a huge mob of Cimerorans and can't hit any of them simply maneuver and attack to drop the -Acc hold on you. Or even simply jump straight up into the air and then pop soul drain as soon as you land works as well. There are so many different playstyle tricks so overcoming complications it's incredible.

And there's some more beauty, even if soul drain isn't perma all you have to do is open with it when you approach a mob. Your acc skyrockets and you hit like a champ for the next 30 seconds.

Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...

 

Posted

The slotting is fine if you're fighting even level enemies but you will notice a difference in accuracy when fighting +3s and +4s.

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Force_ View Post
False? It's a little power called Dark Consumption, you don't need CP, you don't need PP. In fact, for several month I ran a fully IO'd/purple/pvp IO'd out DM/SD WITHOUT fitness, using Blaze Mastery. And thanks to DC, end was perfectly managable. But hey, you have one at level 43 so you haven't played one in that way to know that. Mids can only do so much, after awhile you kinda have to stop looking at numbers and give advice from ingame experiance. It's an interesting concept. Try it.
You're so self-righteous that you don't understand how what you recommended for the build in question was false, and then imply that I have no experience with level 50 toons, and no experience with DC or the DM/ set in general, which is also false, in order to justify what you stated.

He did not want DC due to concept. Therefore, DC was not an option and what you stated was false in reference to his build needing CP. As to the slotting you recommended in PP, it was simply worse than the slotting I had in it for end recovery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Yeah, even as a hard core number cruncher, I'd never go that far. Numbers may be facts, but IN-GAME is where the rubber meets the road. You can't claim you won a race by pointing out that your car has the highest horsepower and the most grip. You have to actually get out there and race. Numbers can only take you so far.

For the most part, though, yes, my Mids', spreadsheet and in-game experience pretty much match note-for-note.
I completely agree with you. I'll quote myself emphasizing with underlines:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
Looking at numbers does show what you will most likely be capable of in-game. Player ability decides how close to the numbers suggested performance you will actually be for non-static factors. Static factors, such as end gain and end consumption, if using a certain attack chain plus toggle cost, can and will be reliably calculated solely from looking at the numbers.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
You're so self-righteous that you don't understand how what you recommended for the build in question was false, and then imply that I have no experience with level 50 toons, and no experience with DC or the DM/ set in general, which is also false, in order to justify what you stated.

He did not want DC due to concept. Therefore, DC was not an option and what you stated was false in reference to his build needing CP. As to the slotting you recommended in PP, it was simply worse than the slotting I had in it for end recovery.
ACTUALLY, if you go back and read what I wrote further up. I did acknowledge and agree with you that most of what I said about changes for his build were before I noticed his concept requirements and wouldn't fit. Forgive me if I thought all comments and discussion after that weren't about his build and were geared towards other versions of DM/SD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Force_ View Post
Well you're right, I didn't see that he wanted to have a concept build.

It would seem that he's going for a concept build, and some of my comments don't fit his criteria. They are still good comments for anyone else however.

I also stated that what I had said was still solid advice for those looking for a non concept build, which was true. And yes, I correctly assumed and stated that you did not have experience playing a spec'd out version of the build in question and that at one point looking at mids wasn't going to get you as far as actually playing said build.

I said nothing about you having a so called lack of 50s time logged overal, I pointed out a fact which pertained to the topic at hand. A fact that I could tell by listening to your build advice for this particular combination of power sets.

I do apologize for having a straightforward and direct way of approaching something. I most certainly did not mean for you to get all defensive.

If I was in your shoes and had been wrong about something I most certainly would have been a man about it by acknowledging that indeed I was mistaken, which I was earlier in this thread and had admitted to.

So. You calling me self-righteous for being correct on some points and admitting that I wasn't on others isn't really doing you any good.

Arguing is fine, even heated arguments are fine. It proves that both sides are passionate about the subject matter, being wrong is even fine as long as you can have the courage to admit your mistake and learn from it which ultimately makes you better prepared for the next time. Calling people names for being corrected instead of learning from your mistakes isn't fine.


I am going to post this and then not reply to anything further you have to say that does not relate to this topic. I suggest you make whatever hot headed remarks you feel you must and then lets both move back to the topic at had, which would be helping others with whatever experience and knowledge we have. If a situation of disagreement forms, then lets try to maintain some form of civility as we work it out. It's not about me, it's not about you. It's about informing whoever asked the question with the most accurate information we can give.

Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
The slotting is fine if you're fighting even level enemies but you will notice a difference in accuracy when fighting +3s and +4s.
This is true, that will generally happen in any case as you ramp up the difficulty. You can have all the accuracy in the world and still miss thanks to hit rolls. It's not a minuscule difference though you're right, it's noticeable.

Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Force_ View Post
\Calling people names for being corrected instead of learning from your mistakes isn't fine.

I am going to post this and then not reply to anything further you have to say that does not relate to this topic. I suggest you make whatever hot headed remarks you feel you must and then lets both move back to the topic at had, which would be helping others with whatever experience and knowledge we have. If a situation of disagreement forms, then lets try to maintain some form of civility as we work it out. It's not about me, it's not about you. It's about informing whoever asked the question with the most accurate information we can give.
You mistake my annoyance for defensiveness. Nothing I have stated in this thread has been incorrect, nor in need of correction.

You persist in the viewpoint that I offered advice with no experience and that numerical fact has less relevance than in-game experience, when, in fact, they directly correlate. See my quote to Werner in my prior post for emphasis.

Though I have in-game experience with DC, the matter of in-game experience or not is immaterial, as he did not want it in his build. The question of optimal slotting of PP for peak end recovery in any build is a matter of empirical numerical fact, and in-game experience can in no way affect it.

You offered advice and some of it was correct. Other advice was not, even for builds other than AndFerne's. I refuted the incorrect information with factual statements. You state that, "It's about informing whoever asked the question with the most accurate information we can give." Happily, this has been achieved.

 

Posted

Soooo I finally got to respec and when I take a look at my DDR in real numbers I let a giant MALE COW FECAL MATTER! My DDR is at 85%, yay for being careless and miss calculating my DDR. Made a few corrections and it looks like I lose 5% recharge but I do get to slot Soul Drain for just Acc and Rech which is a nice benefit to AV and Pylon soloing. So please help me and make sure that with this current iteration I will have capped DDR. Also if you can tell me, does having an Enzyme Exposure in Grant Cover give you more DDR? I remember reading that but I'm not sure how true that is...

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Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Assuming we can trust Mids'... you have 38.6% without Active Defense and 68.5% single-stacked, so 98.4% double-stacked. So most of the time, yes, you'll be capped at 95%. For ten or so second gaps, you'll be down at 68.5% when your double-stack drops. I'm not a DDR expert, though, and I haven't tried to figure it all out and double-check Mids' itself.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

OK, my DM/Shield is almost 50 and I am nailing down the final build I want. I have two that I'm considering atm. I'm looking for opinions and possible improvements. Both builds are capable of running MG>Smite>SL>Smite and have at or near 95% DDR. I am not positive, but I think both builds are end sustainable - confirmation would be nice.

The first uses level 30 IOs and is capable of exemping down to level 27 and maintaining soft-cap to all positions. It also has 95%+ Acc vs. +4 even without SD. SD recharges in 37.2 seconds, but is slotted with Oblits, so it does damage it's fuel.

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This second build is set up with level 50 IOs and would not be as functional as the first for exemplaring. SD is recharged in 36.1 seconds and is slotted for only Acc and Recharge, so it won't damage it's fuel. Not all attacks reach the +95% Acc vs. +4 mobs without SD.

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Please let me know what you think.

 

Posted

edit

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
OK, my DM/Shield is almost 50 and I am nailing down the final build I want. I have two that I'm considering atm. I'm looking for opinions and possible improvements. Both builds are capable of running MG>Smite>SL>Smite and have at or near 95% DDR. I am not positive, but I think both builds are end sustainable - confirmation would be nice.

The first uses level 30 IOs and is capable of exemping down to level 27 and maintaining soft-cap to all positions. It also has 95%+ Acc vs. +4 even without SD. SD recharges in 37.2 seconds, but is slotted with Oblits, so it does damage it's fuel.

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This second build is set up with level 50 IOs and would not be as functional as the first for exemplaring. SD is recharged in 36.1 seconds and is slotted for only Acc and Recharge, so it won't damage it's fuel. Not all attacks reach the +95% Acc vs. +4 mobs without SD.

Code:
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Please let me know what you think.
I actually like the first one a lot, a lot a lot. Here is why because for one there aren't that many AVs low levels minus TFs so you won't be soloing too many hard targets for long so that negates killing your AAo, SD fuel and the utility of being soft capped at 27 out weighs just about any small losses.

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andferne View Post
Howdy again. I've decided to try and toy around with my 2nd build. One that really would not have to be concept friendly. But I have run into a problem looking through MID's and trying to get everything suitable. With this build I decided to drop Laser Eye Beams and pick up Midnight Grasp instead, then move around a few slots and place them there. I was able to boost my Recharge rate by a nice percentage with the Heta and Doctored Wounds, but moving things around changed my Defenses too. Now I am not soft capped for AoE Defense, though I did manage to stay soft capped for Melee and Range. So once again I have come to yall for some advice on things I might of overlooked.

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I'd probably drop Shadow Maul in favor of dark consumption because your endurance cost seems pretty high and you'll want that extra endurance boost that it provides.

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
I actually like the first one a lot, a lot a lot. Here is why because for one there aren't that many AVs low levels minus TFs so you won't be soloing too many hard targets for long so that negates killing your AAo, SD fuel and the utility of being soft capped at 27 out weighs just about any small losses.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. I don't exemp often, but when I do I hate losing survivability. This build would negate that issue entirely. I think I'll go with it. I also like that Smite has both the Heca and Cloud Senses damage procs, which I'm hoping will up DPS nicely. I can't wait to try it out on a pylon.

Sant, if you or anyone else can see any improvments, please let me know. Also, does it look end sustainable to you? I was worried about pulling the second recharge IO from CP, but I couldn't find another slot to stick in Combat Jumping to reach Ranged softcap.

 

Posted

Your endurance should be sustainable but I will have to ask one of the real number calculators around here to make sure lol

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

edit

 

Posted

Would you post the first build long form, as my gaming/internet comp is not the same one that has mids, thanks

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The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrite View Post
Would you post the first build long form, as my gaming/internet comp is not the same one that has mids, thanks
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Kujutsu: Level 50 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite
  • (A) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (3) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (3) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
  • (5) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (5) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 50
  • (7) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage: Level 30
Level 1: Deflection
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 30
  • (7) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
  • (9) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
  • (43) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
  • (43) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All): Level 30
Level 2: Battle Agility
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 30
  • (9) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
  • (11) HamiO:Enzyme Exposure
Level 4: True Grit
  • (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance: Level 30
  • (11) Numina's Convalescence - Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (13) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge: Level 30
  • (13) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (15) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 30
  • (15) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 30
Level 6: Hasten
  • (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 30
  • (17) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 30
  • (17) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 30
Level 8: Siphon Life
  • (A) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
  • (19) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
  • (19) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
  • (21) HamiO:Golgi Exposure
  • (21) HamiO:Golgi Exposure
  • (23) HamiO:Golgi Exposure
Level 10: Active Defense
  • (A) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
  • (23) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
  • (25) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
Level 12: Hurdle
  • (A) Jumping IO: Level 30
Level 14: Health
  • (A) Regenerative Tissue - +Regeneration: Level 30
Level 16: Boxing
  • (A) Accuracy IO: Level 30
Level 18: Tough
  • (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance: Level 30
  • (25) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (27) Aegis - Resistance: Level 30
  • (27) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (50) Aegis - Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
Level 20: Stamina
  • (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 30
  • (29) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 30
  • (29) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge: Level 30
  • (31) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge: Level 30
  • (48) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 30
  • (50) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy: Level 30
Level 22: Against All Odds
  • (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 30
Level 24: Phalanx Fighting
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 30
  • (50) Kismet - Accuracy +6%: Level 30
Level 26: Soul Drain
  • (A) Obliteration - Damage: Level 30
  • (31) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 30
  • (31) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 30
  • (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
  • (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (33) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 30
Level 28: Weave
  • (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 30
  • (34) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge: Level 30
  • (34) Red Fortune - Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (34) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (46) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 30
  • (48) Red Fortune - Endurance: Level 30
Level 30: Combat Jumping
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 30
  • (40) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range: Level 30
  • (43) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 30
Level 32: Midnight Grasp
  • (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage: Level 30
  • (36) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
  • (36) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 30
  • (36) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (37) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge: Level 30
  • (37) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 30
Level 35: Shield Charge
  • (A) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (37) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (39) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
  • (39) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (39) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage: Level 50
Level 38: Shadow Maul
  • (A) Obliteration - Damage: Level 30
  • (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 30
  • (40) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge: Level 30
  • (42) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
  • (42) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
  • (42) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 30
Level 41: Conserve Power
  • (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 30
Level 44: Focused Accuracy
  • (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff: Level 30
  • (45) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge: Level 30
  • (45) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance: Level 30
  • (45) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance: Level 30
  • (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance: Level 30
  • (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up: Level 30
Level 47: Physical Perfection
  • (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 30
  • (48) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 30
Level 49: Grant Cover
  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 30
------------
Level 1: Brawl
  • (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
  • (A) Celerity - +Stealth: Level 30
Level 2: Rest
  • (A) Empty
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 6: Ninja Run

 

Posted

And I made a few changes in the name of lower endurance consumption

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Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

why the Enzymes in deflection and battle agility? they enhance debuffs according to the screen

The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrite View Post
why the Enzymes in deflection and battle agility? they enhance debuffs according to the screen
The game makes no distinction between Def buffs and debuffs, so the HOs will enhance either.