City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Dark/Shield Help again

American_Dynamo

By American_Dynamo,
Posted on: 2009-09-20 20:12 in Scrappers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
Are you willing to get the 3% Def PVP IO? If so, it would create a good bit of wiggle room to squeeze in more recharge.
Yeah. I have been putting it off until we got my wife's fire/shield IO'd out (to the tune of some 4+ billion) this weekend, guess it's time to put bids up.

 

Posted

Here's another look - I shamelessly stole Gaidin's build and changed it some. I really liked the 5 doctored wounds + proc in TG and Health - it loses some +hp but I think the extra recharge is worth it. Moved the slots from phys. perf to stamina for more end recovery, and removed one of the membranes which leaves the build at about 88 def debuff res (I currently run at 86 and don't have problems, so this is good enough for me. ymmv). Dropped a numina's unique in PP and even had a slot left over to put a cloud senses neg. proc in MG.


Now I have to go get the +3 pvp IO :P

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
Ok Sant, here's what I came up with. It meets all of your requirements and garners a whopping 162.5 recharge. The only real downside is that Dark Consumption isn't slotted for +End with this build. Let me know what you think.


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Wow that build is great! I changed it a bit, I added 5 pieces from the Panacea set in TG to give me more endurance recovery, regeneration, +hp, and recharge. It pays to buy stuff and horde it when its cheap lol. I got that whole set for less then a billion back when PvP enhancements were cheap(relatively)

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Here is my change

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Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Wow that build is great! I changed it a bit, I added 5 pieces from the Panacea set in TG to give me more endurance recovery, regeneration, +hp, and recharge. It pays to buy stuff and horde it when its cheap lol. I got that whole set for less then a billion back when PvP enhancements were cheap(relatively)
Nice changes, though I wouldn't invest in the Panacea set with the prices as they are - not enough gain for the cost imho. There are two things that I'd be concerned about, and one improvement. Your Ranged Def is technically not soft-capped and is at 44.99%, which combined with your 72.6% DDR could result in some issues, rare though they might be. I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to this and I shoot for 95% DDR, but ymmv. You could lose the LotG: Defense in Battle Agility for an Enzyme Exposure - you'd lose 10% regen, but you're Ranged Def would be at 45.12%.

The other thing I'd move for an improvement is swap the Numina's unique and the Miracle unique. This leaves you with the same Recovery, but boosts your regen 23% since the Numina's will benefit from True Grit's Heal enhancement. I took my own advice and tweaked my build. Also moved the Perf Shifter set to Stamina like yours for more recovery...not sure why I didn't do this previously, except maybe I was tired. Also, you could throw a Celerity:+Stealth in Sprint for the ability to stealth missions.

I *really* wish Mids would average in the +End you get from the Performance Shifter proc. I'm not sure if it or the Miracle unique actually contributes more end recovery, and this is muddled even further if you consider that the Miracle unique's +Recovery, when placed in Physical Perfection, could be enhanced by replacing the Performance Shifter proc with a standard End Mod IO.

Looking at the numbers in your build Santorican, if you replace the Perf Shifter proc in Physical Perfection with a level 50 End Mod IO, you're looking at 4.01 end/sec.... which might be more effective recovery than having 3.79 end/sec + Perf Shifter proc. I need Umbral or another numbers guy to look into the permutations of this - hopefully one of them will read this post.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad View Post
Here's another look - I shamelessly stole Gaidin's build and changed it some. I really liked the 5 doctored wounds + proc in TG and Health - it loses some +hp but I think the extra recharge is worth it. Moved the slots from phys. perf to stamina for more end recovery, and removed one of the membranes which leaves the build at about 88 def debuff res (I currently run at 86 and don't have problems, so this is good enough for me. ymmv). Dropped a numina's unique in PP and even had a slot left over to put a cloud senses neg. proc in MG.
OK, same concern about Ranged Def and DDR as prior post about Santorican's build - same suggesstion, but as I said there ymmv.

Also, same suggesstion - swap the Numina's unique and the Miracle unique for the same reason as my prior post. Also, Celerity:+Stealth in Sprint for total invisibility for mission stealthing.

Other than having the slot you used for the Cloud Senses proc in MG in Acrive Defense, and two Enzyme Exposures in Battle Agility instead of the LotG: Defense, our builds are now identical. Now to solve the Miracle unqiue vs. Perf Shifter proc quandry...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
Nice changes, though I wouldn't invest in the Panacea set with the prices as they are - not enough gain for the cost imho. There are two things that I'd be concerned about, and one improvement. Your Ranged Def is technically not soft-capped and is at 44.99%, which combined with your 72.6% DDR could result in some issues, rare though they might be. I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to this and I shoot for 95% DDR, but ymmv. You could lose the LotG: Defense in Battle Agility for an Enzyme Exposure - you'd lose 10% regen, but you're Ranged Def would be at 45.12%.

The other thing I'd move for an improvement is swap the Numina's unique and the Miracle unique. This leaves you with the same Recovery, but boosts your regen 23% since the Numina's will benefit from True Grit's Heal enhancement. I took my own advice and tweaked my build. Also moved the Perf Shifter set to Stamina like yours for more recovery...not sure why I didn't do this previously, except maybe I was tired. Also, you could throw a Celerity:+Stealth in Sprint for the ability to stealth missions.

I *really* wish Mids would average in the +End you get from the Performance Shifter proc. I'm not sure if it or the Miracle unique actually contributes more end recovery, and this is muddled even further if you consider that the Miracle unique's +Recovery, when placed in Physical Perfection, could be enhanced by replacing the Performance Shifter proc with a standard End Mod IO.

Looking at the numbers in your build Santorican, if you replace the Perf Shifter proc in Physical Perfection with a level 50 End Mod IO, you're looking at 4.01 end/sec.... which might be more effective recovery than having 3.79 end/sec + Perf Shifter proc. I need Umbral or another numbers guy to look into the permutations of this - hopefully one of them will read this post.
Wouldn't my DDR be higher when AD stacks?

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Wouldn't my DDR be higher when AD stacks?
Yeah, sorry. When I was looking at your build Grant Cover was turned off for some reason.

Yours: Single AD = 64.45% + stacked AD of 24.2% = 88.65%

With third Membrane Exposure: Single AD = 67.91% +stacked AD of 27.7% = 95.61%

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
I *really* wish Mids would average in the +End you get from the Performance Shifter proc. I'm not sure if it or the Miracle unique actually contributes more end recovery, and this is muddled even further if you consider that the Miracle unique's +Recovery, when placed in Physical Perfection, could be enhanced by replacing the Performance Shifter proc with a standard End Mod IO.
While I agree it would be handy if Mid's did this for us, it's pretty easy to calculate which is better.

A PS proc is a 20% chance of 10 endurance every 10 seconds. So that's an average of 0.2*10 = 2 endurance every 10 seconds, or 0.2 average EPS. This can't be enhanced and it doesn't depend on your endurance maximum.

A Miracle is a 15% recovery boost. Since our base recovery for an endurance max of 100 endurance is 5 end per 3 seconds, a 15% enhancement represents a 0.25 EPS recovery increase.

So a Miracle's minimum effect is higher than a PS proc's average. Since no slotting can improve a PS proc, that means a Miracle is unconditionally better than a PS proc wherever you slot either one. However, since a Miracle is both enhanceable in PP and it scales with increased endurance maximum, it's obviously still important to look at where you slot it.

Given a choice of multiple passives in which to slot a single PS proc, I would normally slot it in the recovery power that gives the least base recovery, assuming I intend to slot any endurance modification in the power at all (which I normally would). However, this can get tricky if you slot a Miracle in PP. The way I think of it is that PP with a Miracle in is as if it's a single recovery power that's slightly better than Stamina (27.5% recovery) with the composite power slottable for recovery.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

But would it be better to slot 1 Endurance Modification into PP then slotting a PS Proc into PP?

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Here is a good thread talking about the numbers in Stamina

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...rmance+Shifter
OK, this information cooincides with what I had come up with. I came up with +0.22 end/sec average for Perf Shifter proc, and the thread states +0.2/sec. So, replacing the PS proc in PP with an End Mod IO ends up being essentially a wash, though you're looking at a consistent increase subject to Recovery Debuffs vs. the chance that the RNG is against you causing less than average recovery. I'll go with the proc.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
OK, this information cooincides with what I had come up with. I came up with +0.22 end/sec average for Perf Shifter proc, and the thread states +0.2/sec. So, replacing the PS proc in PP with an End Mod IO ends up being essentially a wash, though you're looking at a consistent increase subject to Recovery Debuffs vs. the chance that the RNG is against you causing less than average recovery. I'll go with the proc.
Also, this conclusion is for our specific builds - assuming a Miracle unique in PP and questioning whether to have an End Mod IO(+.22/sec) or the Perf Shifter proc(+.22/sec average) as the second slot.

If it were just Miracle unique vs. Perf Shifter proc in PP then Miracle wins.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
But would it be better to slot 1 Endurance Modification into PP then slotting a PS Proc into PP?
PP's base recovery bonus is 12.5%. A single level 50 Endurance Modification IO increases this by a factor of 1.424, which works out to a recovery increase 5.3% or +0.0883 EPS (with 100 max endurance).

So as the only enhancement in the power, the Perf Shifter proc is worth more on average (0.2 EPS vs. 0.0883 EPS).

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I think I spend more influence in respec recipes then I do on what I'm changing lol

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
I think I spend more influence in respec recipes then I do on what I'm changing lol
lol That's why I try to hash this stuff out prior to dinging 50. My DM/Shield is only level 15 right now.

 

Posted

I can't even count how many iteration of builds I've made for my dark/shield. I'm so finicky, one moment I'll want a cheese load of AoE the next it will be super survivability. I THINK I'll be happy with this one. We'll see haha

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Right now I'm sitting at 86% DDR, I need to get to 95%. Any suggestions?
Only easy solutions I see would be to remove the end/res in tough and put an enzyme into AD - that'll get you to 90.2 with double stacked AD, and then you could take one of the procs out, say maybe the regen tissue out of health and put an enzyme into grant cover which would get you to 94.8 with 2 stacked AD.

There's just not any way to increase def debuff resist other than changing slotting on grant cover, AD, or battle agility.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad View Post
Only easy solutions I see would be to remove the end/res in tough and put an enzyme into AD - that'll get you to 90.2 with double stacked AD, and then you could take one of the procs out, say maybe the regen tissue out of health and put an enzyme into grant cover which would get you to 94.8 with 2 stacked AD.

There's just not any way to increase def debuff resist other than changing slotting on grant cover, AD, or battle agility.
I'd take the Res/End from Tough and stick another Membrane into AD, assuming you're using your latest build that you posted. Taking out the Regen Tissue unique loses a lot of regen.

Also, and perhaps this is an anomaly, but more likely due to a lack of understanding of some game mechanic on my part, but if you slot a Membrane Exposure and an Enzyme Exposure into the same power, their enhancement values are affecting the power seperately...so you can effectively bypass ED this way...

I'll post Sant's build, but I took some slots from Boxing just to try this and give you an example. With 3 Membranes and 2 Enzymes in AD, you net 39.2% DDR from a SINGLE AD... You could effectively remove Grant Cover from the build entirely and STILL be at 102.6% DDR (with double-stacked AD). Could this possibly be correct? If it's correct, I think I may have just stumbled upon a revolutionary approach for achieving 95% DDR for /Shields AND saving a power pick.

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Posted

The real question will be whether or not you can actually achieve this in game or whether it's only occuring in mid's.
If you CAN do this in-game, that would be.. well... pretty cool...

 

Posted

I'd be interested to know as well, but I suspect it's just mids (I've found lots of problems with how mids deals with DDR)

 

Posted

I'm thinking I might take a hit to my regeneration and keep the recharge. A 48% decrease in regeneration only means I will lose 4hp/sec and considering that Siphon Life is a much larger source of regeneration/healing I'd rather have that up more often.

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Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

Okay there is some problem. Mid's is showing that BA gives me a 26.9% DDR buff but in game its a 22.3% what gives? I have the same slotting.

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

Posted

I think I found it, in game it isn't counting the second enzyme exposure to DDR? Is this some sort of bug?

Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread