Recluse was ripped off.

I'd have to take the artist as his word, I guess, but unless SP wears giant granny bloomers I think it's a safe bet that her opaque Green On Green ensemble covers more skin than her g-string.

I assume she wears a g-string. You wouldn't want the embarrassment of visible panty lines in your costume.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread until I saw this phrase.

Morality is always relative. As Einstein said, everything is relative. You probably trust the police until they arrest someone you care about.

Recluse is a monster, but he's working at making a different society. A society similar to that which you find in the writings of Ayn Rand, where those with means make their way through any method they see fit. It's a savage "Survival of the Fittest" mentality he's founded his government on, and it suits "Villains" just fine.

We're shown a brief glimpse of the Etoile Isles under the rule of Marchand, but who's to say Marchand wasn't a Right Wing nutjob who decided to side with the U.S. and hold onto nuclear weapons for them so as to be a buffer against Cuba or possible incoming missiles during the Cold War? Our typical moral relativity sides with Marchand, however, because we're shown a tiny bit of the story.

Still... I don't think the Isles would be as bad as they are. Impoverished denizens scrabble to eke a life out of a crippled fishing industry. Cage Consortium hires mostly ex-cons. Arachnos soldiers, the men who are supposed to be the law enforcers, beat down anybody who even glances at them the wrong way. Finally, in the end, there are super-powered criminals that Recluse has invited to his Islands in order to find the Destined One who he'll sacrifice in order to achieve his ultimate victory and the total and complete destruction of civilization throughout the world.

Yeah... Recluse is one cool guy...

Statesman seems like a jerk in our eyes because of what? The creator of the game and many players' opinions of him? The comics didn't even last long enough to flesh the character of Statesman out properly. Yes, he seemed cold and indifferent at times, but the man is over one hundred years old. He's seen the world change in massive, sweeping ways at a pace that would be difficult for anybody to adjust to. Just look at how we react to each new social trend. Look at what we feel is moral and right in the modern day and compare it to what was moral and right just ten years ago.

Statesman is a man long past his time. Rather than try to keep up with society (which has trouble keeping up with the changes itself), he's decided to separate from it. He maintains a moral high ground because it's all he's got left and it's not a high ground that's easy to find fault with. His wife is gone, his family is distant, and the new vigilantes he's invited to help his city have it in their heads that they have a license to kill just because they've got super powers. Throw in the "unchanging world" archetype of an MMO, and there's not much room for character development, outside a Task Force where (News Flash for the malcontents), YOU'RE supposed to be the star, not him. He's sending you on the mission not because he's lazy, but because he believes in you.

I tend to think it looks like a shovel blade..

Man, I wish that were true...

No it isn't. Most ethical philosophers hold that there is at least objective moral truth, if not absolute moral truth (objective and absolute here are very different things).

PS: I think you may want to read up on Moral Relativism.

Yeah, that scene was a combination of that, and the fact that the description I was given of Psyche's character was that after the Shalice/Aurora dealy, her personality had become pretty...let's say "cranky." So I went with that, while trying to keep her somewhat likable (which hopefully manifests itself a bit later on).

If I had free rein to write her now, I'd probably go with a personality something like Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel circa 1979.

This thread is full of win.

What I don't get is why Recluse got -spider legs- when he's the incarnation of the Greek god Tartarus.. First of all, Tartarus is a place, isn't it? I wiki'd a bit, and couldn't find anything about one god, but only "Hell".

And same about any connection to any spiders.. Spiders aren't all that bad! They're just a tad disgusting. If they wanted to make Recluse -real- despicaple, they should have made him a mosquito.

I really don't know how to respond to this. You're telling me that there is a belief in a moral absolute, then pitch me a link to a Wikipedia article that explains and illustrates the opposite. The arguments against Moral Relativism indicated are hashed out and dissected in their own sections. Am I supposed to cringe at the examples of the Holocaust and Apartheid? Terrible stains on humanity's history, to be sure, but they also serve as prime examples of "Would you really be thinking this had the other side won?" It's a distressing thought.

One does Moral Relativism a disservice by comparing it to selfish behavior. If one takes something from another person without asking and without compensation, it is a simple act of theft. There's no moral question about it. If he's so detached from social understanding that the other individual has a vested interest in the object, he should also feel no concern about the reprisal that's about to bop him on the back of his head.

But therein lies the rub! You see, he does feel concern at being punished for his theft! "What right did he have to punish me? It's not like he was still using this!" THIS is where Moral Relativism lies! It's all in perception of the current situation. Of course it's easy to look back on atrocities committed in the past and say "That was NOT right!" but in the moment? In the moment, we make decisions based on what we feel is right.

Consider the Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment. This abhorrent experiment was conducted to study the progression of Syphilis and its effects on the human body. AT the same time, they were lying to those poor people and telling them they were administering a cure! It's a prime example of a terrible act done "for the common good," and it was only recently that the U.S. government finally formally apologized (just a little over ten years ago).

I hope I'm not striking any nerves here, but I would like to continue... I shouldn't try to debate massive philosophical quandaries, because I may as well start digging a foxhole to defend my favored deity as well. However, the point of moral relativism still stands. Nobody on the face of the planet has done something they didn't feel was "right" in their moral compass. I'm not saying that they were right, just that they believed they were. Nobody thinks they're the villain in the story.

To avoid harsh feelings involving real-world scenarios, let's take the game's examples...

Statesman leads and teaches the heroes and vigilantes of the world that life is sacred and that delivering a wholesale slaughter to the enemies of freedom and humanity will only engender more hate and discontent in the future. At the same time, compromise with "evil" only lets the villainy of the world get away with heinous crimes. It's a fine line to tread, one that weighs heavily upon him. Those who break the law must be face justice, even if they are or once were good friends. At the times when inadequacies are found in the law, he will lodge a complaint and debate the issues, but he will still have to enforce that which is in the books because to do otherwise, to use his power to satisfy what he feels is right first, is the first step of corruption.

Recluse is much simpler. He believes he's King and that we simply haven't accepted it yet. He's King because he's the toughest monstrosity on the face of the planet. If he has to tear the world down so he can build it back up again with EVERYBODY knowing exactly who's in charge, so be it. The countless dead will mean nothing to him because they were beneath him anyway, they didn't have the power to survive the cataclysm, so they didn't deserve to live. He doesn't care about the welfare of his subjects because his ideology involves the people serving him finding their own way to survive. If they need medical care, find their own doctors or learn how to fix themselves. If they need food, learn to grow or catch it themselves, or steal it from a neighbor who wasn't wise enough to protect his hoard. He's a barbarian, plain and simple, and will likely cause society to collapse many times over under his rule. As long as he survives, though, as long as he's immortal, he has no reason to worry about his fellows throughout humanity. His future remains secure.

Not necessarily opposing arguments, nor are they "wrong" in their own eyes. However, these two find themselves at odds because Recluse's dream of a world under his boot heel clashes with Statesman's vision of a peacefully ordered world.

You want a moral absolute? It's simple.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Treat others the way you wish to be treated.

Clear cut. Plain and simple. It's also relative.

If you want others to deal with you cordially, deal with others cordially. If you don't care what others think of you, try to steal everything not nailed down (and try for some of the nailed-down stuff, too), but don't be surprised when they run you out of town on a rail. If you run across someone who doesn't treat you cordially, then you can either ignore or (as in the case of personal injury/theft/defamation) prosecute the individual.

Things always get messy and tl;dr when people start talking about moral relativism. At least try to keep it civil and too complicated for idiots to butt in.

Y'know, that interpretation of Statesman puts how warm and friendly he suddenly become around Foreshadow in a whole new light- Statesman is an old man who may well be immortal, and the only people he can really identify with are other immortals like Foreshadow. Who knows, maybe in a few decades he'll adjust to being immortal and learn to keep up with the times better.

That depends on what you define as "morality." If you mean to say a person is moral just for HAVING morals, regardless of what they are, then I have to disagree. Evil morality is a pretty cool way to write villains to the vein of "They hurt me, so why should I feel bad about hurting them?" or "They are cattle. They need to be led." but, ultimately, I wouldn't call that morality. I would call that a LACK of morality.

I will never disagree that views on what is justified can differ, but I cannot and will not accept that acts of evil as clear and unashamed as we commit in City of Villains can pass for any sort of morality, however misguided. What we have in City of Villains is a LACK of morals and a disregard for morality as a whole.

Call me crazy, but I refuse to consider a man who believes it is his right to kill whoever he chooses because the laws of the jungle allows it "moral."

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Tartarus was one of the gods before there were gods. He was both a being and a place, as all of the primordial gods were.

It began with a single deity. Some Greek myths say it was Ocean, some say it was Night, some say it was Chaos, some say it was Time. But from that first deity sprang others, one of which was Tartarus. This second generation of deities were all both gods and places or concepts.

In time, a third generation of deities was produced, the Titans. The Titans overthrew their progenitors. Again, exactly what supposedly happens differs from myth to myth. One myth will state that the Titans slew the second generation deities, another myth will state that they locked them away in their respective places or concepts, etc. At any rate, Tartarus then became only a place, the underworld, and not a deity any longer.

As the Titans wrested control from their parents, so did the Olympians, with Hades becoming the new god of the underworld. Tartarus was then renamed Hades, but Tartarus still existed as the lowest, deepest level of Hades, where the worst enemies of the deities and the people who committed particularly vile acts were confined forever.

So yes, Tartarus was both a god and a place. The myths revolving about Tartarus were later adopted by the Romans, who were at least partially successful at building their empire through the means of incorporating every religion they encountered into their own Roman pantheon. Still later, when one particular religion began to sweep through the empire, tales of Tartarus (and many other similar myths from other religions) were reworked to fit that new religion, Christianity, and the place was renamed once more, to Hell.

But why Recluse grew spider legs, I have no idea. The only Greco-Roman myth concerning a spider is the one about Arachne, but that myth didn't come into existence until well after the Roman empire had subsumed Greek culture. It's a Roman myth, essentially, not a Greek myth, and it's not even remotely connected to Tartarus. There were also the myths concerning the Moirae (the three sisters who determined destiny, Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos, also known as the Fates), who were weavers, but not spiders and not connected to Tartarus either. So I'd have to guess that Stefan Richter growing a set of arachnid legs would have to have been a result of his own inner corruption, not a transformation specifically tied to the powers he gained, and it was symbolic of his true nature. It could have just as easily been his lower body transforming into that of a snake, or a goat, or his head becoming that of a hyena, or any of the other representations of fear or evil which have been used by different cultures throughout the world.

Having said all of that, considering Mr. Emmert's (the lead developer at the time) background in mythology, I'm rather disappointed at the hideous mish-mash of having one Incarnate as a pre-Titan, the other an Olympian. Recluse should have been the Incarnate of Hades, not Tartarus. I don't have a college education and I spotted that mistake (and i've been waiting to get it off of my chest for years). Shameful.

Here, here! It's especially confusing that The Web of Arachnos states that Zeus, the guy of whom Statesman is an incarnate, was himself of an incarnate of Cronos. Does that mean Tartarus was a "real" person, too, and, if so, whose incarnate was he?

It doesn't help matters that CoX lore is pretty inconsistent in its treatment of the gods of mythology. Sometimes, as in the novel, they're described as mere super-powered humans of the past. Other times, as in the missions and background related to the contact Daedalus of Cimerora or in Adamastor's bio information (it mentions the nymph/goddess Thetis), they seem to be powerful, supernatural beings, as they are in the myths. And still other times, they're identified with the inhuman, Dr. Strange-like god-entities associated with the Mu and CoT lore. For instance, "Hequat," goddess of the Mu and a promoter of magic, sounds a lot like "Hecate," a Greek goddess of dubious reputation also heavily associated with magic. "Ermeeth," who taught magic and other arts to the Oranbegans, sounds a lot like "Hermes," the Olympian who taught humans a variety of arts. I imagine this is all summarized in several, mutually contradictory sections of the Official Story Bible.

Also, just to muddle things further, yet another Greek creation myth has three primordial gods/concepts all spontaneously appear at once: Tartarus, Gaea (the earth; more often spelled "Gaia" these days, same deity), and, interestingly, Eros (love, who's normally considered one of the "youngest" of the Greek gods).

Gentlemen (I'm assuming gentlemen here because, well, I have no evidence to say otherwise and am going by the "vibe" I get from your posts), I am in complete agreement with both of you on this, but I guess I see it all in a different light. I look at the world as a Moderate, and debates seem easier to me because I don't see the problem with compromise, especially when people are essentially arguing the same point.

Sam, I'm sure Lord Recluse (the character, not the developer using the character name ) disagrees with you wholeheartedly. Why? Because he feels he has the strength and power to deserve the right to do whatever the Hell he wants. I think it's wrong, Statesman thinks it's wrong, a whole lot of us on the Blue Side (and many on the Red, too) think it's wrong, but he doesn't and as long as he lives he won't think otherwise. Considering the fact he's a font of raw power himself, this makes him a pretty dangerous individual.

*SPOILERS*
Thank goodness he's boring! Half the atrocious stuff in the Isles comes either from his minions (Dr. Aeon: "I think we should recycle dead humans to feed the living ones! We'll call it NutriPaste!" Mako: *munching on a femur* "Mmf! Seriously!? What? Was 'Soylent Green' taken!? Oh wait... It was...") or some of the more debased player villains (*shudder* The things I've seen...). Recluse's big plan? To drain all the meta humans in the world of their powers by exploiting the "Network/Web" that our "Origins" come from (you know, because regardless of origin, our powers are basically the same; one tech fire blaster does the same things a magic or mutant fire blaster does). *yawn* Especially since it doesn't exactly work when it's not ready to go, but hey, it gives him a boost anyway so he works with it (one that doesn't even allow him to put a dent in a Granite Tanker, but oh well...).
*End Spoilers*

Also...

Hades was probably the only Greek God who was sensible. The one "misadventure" he went on, bringing Persephone to Hades to tell her how much he loved her and that if she would eat from his realm, she'd be bound to it (while she was eating a pomegranate from a fruit basket on his table), still sheds him in a good light...

Hades: "I'm glad you were willing to speak with me, Persephone. I can't talk to your mother, Demeter, because, well... She's a nice woman and all, but she feels I'm the opposite of everything she does..."

Persephone: *munch* "Yeah, but she's really nice once you get to know her."

Hades: "Well, all you need to do to make your decision is to do something that ties you to my realm. You could die, which I would rather you didn't... You could eat from... Uh... Where did you get that pomegranate?"

Persephone: "Over there on the table. There's a whole basket of 'em."

Hades: "Oh dear... Your mom's going to kill me... Then bring me back to life and go to work on me..."

Demeter then plunged the world into ice and cold, nearly wiping out all life on earth. The gods demanded that Hades return Persephone to her mother, which he agreed to, but he wanted to have some time with his new wife as well. For most of the year, while Persephone was with her mother, the world would be lush and beautiful. For a few months, however, while she was with her husband, Hades, it would be icy and cold... So... That's how the ancient Greeks explained "Winter."

Hades is just the God and the Land of the Dead. It's not Christian Hell, it's just another phase for one's soul to go through. You still have choices to make, work to do and a "life" to build for yourself in there. You're not being lashed mercilessly by tiny guys in red and black pajamas. You're not being forced to push a boulder uphill until it falls over on you.

Tartarus, on the other hand, is one of the progenitors of modern Hell (the other being the Norse "Hel," which was more like Hades, but the God Giant Hel was more a sadist on a good day than Hades ever was on a bad one). It's where those who broke taboo (sinners) were sent after being judged by a tribunal of former human kings (funny how that works). Descriptions have it as a cold, dark place beneath the Earth where the wicked are tormented ceaselessly...

"If you would look to your left, you will see Sisyphus pushing a giant boulder uphill until it rolls back over near the peak and crushes him. Why does he do it? Because he thinks if he gets it over the mountain he's free, and he's [poop]-scared we'll find something worse for him. Which we will. Don't tell Sisyphus, but if he ever gets that boulder over the mountain, we'll just send him to a bigger mountain, with a bigger boulder! Ah, here's your stop... The Ocean of Broken Glass. Get crawling..."

This was the place that basically created the "Ironic Punishment Division" of the afterlife. A lot of the classic things people picture happening in "Hell" were first depicted here. The Bible even references it briefly. God doesn't send the sinning angels to Hades, nay, that's much too good for them. He sends them to Tartarus until he can figure out something worse. After that, the writers seemed to get lazy, and kept referencing the Abyss, which peculiarly has the same description as Tartarus in that it's a cold dark place deep below the Earth where the wicked are tormented ceaselessly.

It's actually quite fitting that Recluse is based on Tartarus. The spider thing, though... Yeah, that doesn't make much sense...

I think it's because spiders can trigger a primal fear (along with fire, snakes, heights and water/drowning). Since snakes were apparently taken (thank you, Stheno!), Richter must have assumed the shape. It's probably based on his personality, too. Perhaps he's always been "weaving a web of cunning and deceit," and Marcus just never noticed how his friend was using him. Perhaps, if Stefan hadn't rolled over after drinking from the Well of the Furies and started getting ripped apart from the inside as his form twisted and reshaped, he'd have tried to kill Marcus with the power he'd acquired so he could more easily conquer the world. It's probably supposed to be a reflection of his personality, and a punishment for his intent to abuse the power he was to receive.

Its a bit like the Star Wars thing where first you want to be Luke then you realise that Han is cooler, but eventually you realise that you really want to be Vader!
(Now of course I realise that I actually want to be Yoda! Although I probably look more like Jabba!)

...
No... I think I'd still be the boyscout Luke than be a Quadriplegic cyborg with breathing problems and tendency to kill loved ones and achieve only hollow victories. I'm not saying this is how it is for all villains, but it was kind of that way with Vader.

And personally, I think I'd rather be Statesman than Lord Recluse, that army of skintight-clad ladies? Practically trained to be frigid.
Plus, if I were States, I'd probably be hanging out with Positron and Manticore, they've both got cool toys and Incarnate or not, being a tank and getting Manticore's damage mitigating gadget (like glue arrow, oil slick, etc. etc.) would definitely be sweet.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

I always wanted to be Leia - we have a more limited list to pick from in SW than the boys have

Boba Fett.