My suggestions for a PvP revamp

tl;dr version:
1. PvP needs a revamp that allows it to take place in the context of the PvE game
2. PvP should be much more objective based, so it appeals to players that are primarily PvE
3. PvP rewards should be given to accomplishing objectives and not for killing opposition players

I've stepped into the post issue 12 PvP setting about four times since it was introduced. Without elaborating on the many reasons why I dislike it, let me just say that having a dominator attack me with flurry was both amusing and appalling at the same time.

I've seen a number of threads talking on how to change the mechanics of PvP, and while some of them make a lot of sense, I think the authors miss the reason why PvP remains so unpopular in this game. The focus shouldn't just be on the mechanics but why PvP is so isolated and divorced from the rest of the game.

PvP right now takes place in the Arena and in PvP zones. The Arena was the devs first implementation of PvP and it shows: limited options, really just one objective (kill the other side as much as possible) and no system that allows people to join matches already in place. One of the biggest problems of the arena is that in order to use it, you had get someone to fight you first.

PvP zones don't have that issue. It operates on the premise that you fight all comers from the other side, and yet it too has numerous problems. First, PvP zones really just don't fit thematically in this game. They make perfect sense in a game like World of Warcraft where you have two competing armies and territory that changes hands. PvP zones in this game don't make sense if you believe that the game world operates on similar standards of diplomacy and territorial sovereignty as the real world. Second, while there are mini games in PvP zones, they are mostly ignored for just killing other players or diverted to primarily PvE purposes (Shivans, nukes for PvE missions). Third, the PvP zones seem like a poorly tacked on feature of the "real" game as opposed to a seemless integration of the two worlds.

Let me elaborate on this last point a bit. When I first heard of PvP being announced in issue 4, I thought the devs would eventually figure out a way to seemlessly integrate PvP in the context of the PvE game. PvP should sometimes just happen as opposed of having to just look for it.

Here's a few scenarios I thought of with this concept in mind:

* Hero event broadcast: "Villains are attacking Steel Canyon". Up to 30 villains and 30 heroes can enter an instanced zone of Steel Canyon. The instanced zone takes the first 30 on each side that enter. Villains and heroes are auto sk'ed to level 25. Numerous objectives are on the map: rob the bank/stop the robbery, set/defuse the bombs, kidnap/rescue the hostages, vandalize/prevent vandalization. For every objective won by either side, that side wins PvP merits which can be used to purchase PvP recipes. The amount of PvP merits that can be won scales with the number of opposition participants, and are rewarded for *achieving each objective* and not for killing opposition players. Killing opposing players are a means not an ends.

* Villain event broadcast: "Heroes are assaulting the Fab in Grandville" Up to 30 heroes and 30 villains can enter an instanced zone of the Fab. Heroes and villains are auto sk'ed to level 50. Numerous objectives: defend/destroy the Fab power generator, release Longbow captives/prevent their rescue, download information from the Fab mainframe/prevent computer access. Just like the other scenario, every objective won by either side wins that side PvP merits.

* Parallel missions: Have a number of missions with an "Allow PvP combat" option. When this option is toggled, it allows any opposition faction player to enter that mission as a PvP opponent to stop that player from completing the mission. The goal for the protagonist will be accomplishing the mission, the goal for the antagonist will be to stop the protagonist anyway possible, including killing them. A few rules that would need to be added: missions will be timed at 15 minutes. Every time a player is killed, they receive an cumulative buff that makes them slightly harder to kill (+5% damage, +5% defense to all, etc.) This would ensure that even an outmatched player will eventually be on par. Both parties would have a certain number of gladiator based allies that they could deploy at certain points of the map to help them strategically. Once set, they behave as NPCs of the appropriate level. PvP merits would be awarded when either the protagonist achieves the objective or when time runs out.

So why would the above be more advantageous than the current implementation? Well, first I think it would be more popular for PvE players. With the emphasis on achieving the objectives versus just killing players for the sake of killing them, I think it would have more appeal. I also think that many PvE based builds would be more successful in getting objectives done and they would feel less obligated to spec into a build built solely to kill oppsition players. Second, such missions fit in the context of the PvE game. PvP would just happen as opposed of just having it occur in isolated parts of the game. Third, such a system allows for more role play opportunities, since it may allow for the advent of a arch nemesis type system. Appealing to PvE'ers and role players to a new PvP are IMO an important goal to any sort of revamp.

Well I gotta say I think it's a great idea PVP without fighting others but more a who can do more objectives before the time runs out deally. I deffinantly think this would interest PVE too.

Hmmm maybe they could implement something like this in AE. I'm think it would give AE a whole new group of followers for a whole set of different reasons.

These ideas are well thought out and come from an experienced player without too many mechanical changes.

Not a chance in hell the devs will do it.

This suggestion makes too much sense to ever be implemented. The current dev team wouldn't even consider it cause it's a good idea.

The devs actually dont' pvp nor do they know how to pvp. If they actually pvped they would see some of the glaring problems and actually fix them.

I agree that PvP feels like a rather meaningless tacked on feature, that is hardly used.

There's nothing you miss if you dont ever PvP but the thrill of PvP by itself, and nothing that drags you into those zones.
But with the game being almost exclusively PvE, so are most of its players. Demanding that there is significant PvP content all of a sudden will not get you cheers from the players that like CoX because it has so little PvP, as they'd much rather have more PvE content that they can enjoy playing.
Yet as it stands there is nothing for PvE-ers to do in PvP zones. They are almost exclusively for pwning a less PvP-experienced player, which leaves mostly true PvP-ers and very few casual ones in those zones, and PvE-ers even less inclined to go in there.

The goal for the near future would thus be to create PvP content that mostly-PvE players can casually take part in and enjoy too.

Allowing a second build for each character so that you dont have to decide if you want to be good at PvE OR PvP is a good step. Introducing story arcs or as task force that place in a PvP zone, or PvP events that are objective-based where fighting other players only helps in preventing them from achieving their objectives (as suggested) would help too.

What I'd still love for the not so near future is a HUGE PvP zone that is pretty safe for one side at one end each, and a free for all combat zone in the middle, where real missions and story arcs take you into gradually more dangerous space on the other side of it.
(actually, that is what I thought City of Heroes would be like before I got it... )

I wholeheartedly agree on your every suggestion.
Few weeks ago, I was suggesting in LBx (Liberty's popular
channel) that COx should implement the PvP Taskforce.
My suggestion was based on the PvP under PvE context
idea, objectivity and rewards, because I thought PvP is very isolated,
that most people playing PvP are like the people in the Emperor's New Clothes
story of Hans Christian Anderssen, and that
I believe the future of COX largely depends on PvP.

I hope the devs can listen...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fury Flechette tl;dr version: 1. PvP needs a revamp that allows it to take place in the context of the PvE game 2. PvP should be much more objective based, so it appeals to players that are primarily PvE 3. PvP rewards should be given to accomplishing objectives and not for killing opposition players I've stepped into the post issue 12 PvP setting about four times since it was introduced. Without elaborating on the many reasons why I dislike it, let me just say that having a dominator attack me with flurry was both amusing and appalling at the same time. I've seen a number of threads talking on how to change the mechanics of PvP, and while some of them make a lot of sense, I think the authors miss the reason why PvP remains so unpopular in this game. The focus shouldn't just be on the mechanics but why PvP is so isolated and divorced from the rest of the game. PvP right now takes place in the Arena and in PvP zones. The Arena was the devs first implementation of PvP and it shows: limited options, really just one objective (kill the other side as much as possible) and no system that allows people to join matches already in place. One of the biggest problems of the arena is that in order to use it, you had get someone to fight you first. PvP zones don't have that issue. It operates on the premise that you fight all comers from the other side, and yet it too has numerous problems. First, PvP zones really just don't fit thematically in this game. They make perfect sense in a game like World of Warcraft where you have two competing armies and territory that changes hands. PvP zones in this game don't make sense if you believe that the game world operates on similar standards of diplomacy and territorial sovereignty as the real world. Second, while there are mini games in PvP zones, they are mostly ignored for just killing other players or diverted to primarily PvE purposes (Shivans, nukes for PvE missions). Third, the PvP zones seem like a poorly tacked on feature of the "real" game as opposed to a seemless integration of the two worlds. Let me elaborate on this last point a bit. When I first heard of PvP being announced in issue 4, I thought the devs would eventually figure out a way to seemlessly integrate PvP in the context of the PvE game. PvP should sometimes just happen as opposed of having to just look for it. Here's a few scenarios I thought of with this concept in mind: * Hero event broadcast: "Villains are attacking Steel Canyon". Up to 30 villains and 30 heroes can enter an instanced zone of Steel Canyon. The instanced zone takes the first 30 on each side that enter. Villains and heroes are auto sk'ed to level 25. Numerous objectives are on the map: rob the bank/stop the robbery, set/defuse the bombs, kidnap/rescue the hostages, vandalize/prevent vandalization. For every objective won by either side, that side wins PvP merits which can be used to purchase PvP recipes. The amount of PvP merits that can be won scales with the number of opposition participants, and are rewarded for *achieving each objective* and not for killing opposition players. Killing opposing players are a means not an ends. * Villain event broadcast: "Heroes are assaulting the Fab in Grandville" Up to 30 heroes and 30 villains can enter an instanced zone of the Fab. Heroes and villains are auto sk'ed to level 50. Numerous objectives: defend/destroy the Fab power generator, release Longbow captives/prevent their rescue, download information from the Fab mainframe/prevent computer access. Just like the other scenario, every objective won by either side wins that side PvP merits. * Parallel missions: Have a number of missions with an "Allow PvP combat" option. When this option is toggled, it allows any opposition faction player to enter that mission as a PvP opponent to stop that player from completing the mission. The goal for the protagonist will be accomplishing the mission, the goal for the antagonist will be to stop the protagonist anyway possible, including killing them. A few rules that would need to be added: missions will be timed at 15 minutes. Every time a player is killed, they receive an cumulative buff that makes them slightly harder to kill (+5% damage, +5% defense to all, etc.) This would ensure that even an outmatched player will eventually be on par. Both parties would have a certain number of gladiator based allies that they could deploy at certain points of the map to help them strategically. Once set, they behave as NPCs of the appropriate level. PvP merits would be awarded when either the protagonist achieves the objective or when time runs out. So why would the above be more advantageous than the current implementation? Well, first I think it would be more popular for PvE players. With the emphasis on achieving the objectives versus just killing players for the sake of killing them, I think it would have more appeal. I also think that many PvE based builds would be more successful in getting objectives done and they would feel less obligated to spec into a build built solely to kill oppsition players. Second, such missions fit in the context of the PvE game. PvP would just happen as opposed of just having it occur in isolated parts of the game. Third, such a system allows for more role play opportunities, since it may allow for the advent of a arch nemesis type system. Appealing to PvE'ers and role players to a new PvP are IMO an important goal to any sort of revamp.

That is not bad suggestions but to get devs actually apply it you gotta go to virtrue and convince every catgurl to write petition with this suggestions :/

Just note, even if i16 was started Freedom still remained green and guess what? Virtrue had 2 yellow bubbles. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Good post, and good suggestions.

I do disagree that pvp zones don’t fit thematically but whatever. :P

The addition of better rewards and games are the best things they could do to get more people into pvp.

I would support this idea because it's optional. I don't agree that the future of CoX is PvP, but I do think it has a place.

Best revamp idea at the moment is too load up the Aion client lol, they seem to have a grasp on zone pvp. You go to this area called the abyss and you and your guild(SG/VG) attempt to take over castles or fortresses(Bases Raids) listening to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_1hK...eature=related so that lights a small fire but after listening to this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iISgu...eature=related there pvp is basically what we have being begging for all these years.


But the op's idea is sound too i guess

FF as always, amazing options from a respected mind. Simple and effective, while also I thinking bringing a lot more people into the realm of PVP, and showing them it is not so scary.

can everyone shutup and stop suggesting pvp revamps or always complaining about pvp being crap since i13? this might seem a little biased as i actually like the changes, but its been 3 issues now! just get over it and shutup! the devs aren't gonna give in...

I've made similar suggestions numerous times. You have to address two other problems:

1) Small-population servers.
2) Uneven team sizes.

Your idea for the 30-vs-30 raid is interesting, but suffers from the fact that small population servers will never have enough players. Also, it's not fun if one side is outnumbered by the other. It would become an uninteresting gankfest without some kind of balancing.

A solution would be a "PvP Service" which would run on a new server. It could be based on the arena interface, but instead of just serving your server, it would allow teams from any of the live servers to sign up for an instanced mission. This would involve "moving" your character to the PvP Service for the duration of the mission.

These missions would include the simplistic Arena options now available, but would also include more sophisticated goals than just destroying the other side. They could range from wracking up the most PvE kills, to capture the flag, to the Pillbox game in RV, to your ongoing 30-on-30 raid, etc.

Teams looking for a PvP mission would post a challenge on the PvP Service. This would indicate your team size and level, and the name of the team leader and server name. Anyone with a team the same size or smaller could take that challenge from any of the live servers.

If no one accepts your challenge, you can choose to start the mission anyway and run without opposition to accomplish the PvE goals, with the aim of getting a high score for the mission (see below).

Each of the missions would generate a PvE and a PvP score. The top 5 scoring teams would be listed for each mission. This would provide several different ways to compete, encourage community and team building, and allow players to achieve notoriety throughout the entire community of all the players of the game.

It would also allow characters from different servers to finally meet with each other. It would make permanent the PvP tournaments that have taken place on the test server.

Finally, these missions should grant influence and experience. Defeating other players should do the same, giving -1 con boss level experience (with some kind of control for exploits), as well as standard reward drops. You gotta figure it will take at least as long to defeat other players as it does PvE opponents, so why not just give it up and treat them the same. If the rewards are throttled timewise (once a minute or whatever it oughts out to), it's no different than grinding out -1/x8 missions, which will have almost no risk and the same reward.

Dear Mr. My glass is half full,

Congratulations on still being the one guy who still has faith in the devs when it comes to pvp. If their track record on this subject isn't enough to tell you were it really stands keep in mind that it barely got any attention before because of its small population. The population for pvp as well as the game has dwindle since pvp 2.0 has come to pass. What of those two things makes you think that pvp will ever draw resources in this game? While I am sure they will do some stuff here and there I wouldn't quote random stuff and try to read between the lines like everything is going to get all better. Every time we have been told something about pvp it has either taken forever to get implemented or just ended up being a flat out lie. I do however wish you the best in your future hopes. Until then though I will be a realist and just enjoy what they let me have.


Sincerely,

Mr. the glass may be half full but its full of poison