We need more exploration
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-09-03 03:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Reminds me of my exploration adventures in FFXI back when the Chains of Promathia expansion first released. The zones were well designed in that game and there was a lot of cool stuff to see.
I remember one time particular I had heard word that an HNM (equivalent to a Giant Monster I guess) was up in some high level zone and I told my Linkshell (same thing as an SG) I was going to sneak my way there just to see it. It was a giant dragon and dragons were actually quite rare in that game.
My Linkshell didn't think I had a cat in hell's chance of making in, telling me the zone that the HNM was in was insane, but somehow I managed it with only one mishap (my invisible spell wore off at the bottom of this ramp and a demon above me came down and punched me in the face, but luckily I had my self-rez spell on and somehow managed to recover). I made it to the HNM dragon, snapped a few screenshots that I posted on the Linkshell's website, and told my Linkshell "BOOYAH!".
To this day it is one of the funnest and most memorable experiences I've had in any MMO I've played.
But I do agree that such things are hard to replicate. I'm sure that if you went back down into the sewers, Sam, that the journey would become less of an adventure and more of a chore because you've already done it once before and know what's in store (wow did I just go on rhyming spree for a sec?).
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
It also comes down to the whole "empty space issue".
I don't mind them building wilderness. But at least have SOMETHING, ANYTHING to do in them that can be done casually. |
the Shard seems deliberately designed to alienate players and keep people out (it's a bit better nowadays, but still...)
Why do I have the feeling it was Statesman's baby? =P
I think the devs resources would be better spent giving us reasons to explore the zones we've got rather than investing in Sam's dream of vast uncharted spaces. There's a lot of the game most people have never seen- give them a reason to see it, beyond "hey look, static spawns I can beat up on!" DA is one of my favorite zones in the game, but there is literally nothing to do there if you don't like crashing through wave after wave of zombies.
r/e exploration badges, the problem I've always had with them is they're very rarely put somewhere you would go naturally (like the top of the Atlas globe, or through the doughnut hole in Faultline). They're usually in some nondescript, out of the way place you'd never, ever find except by random chance or checking the internet.
Fewer exploration badges placed at points of interest would be much more of a draw for me than a huge number a normal player would never be able to find. Years back I'd be travelling around a zone, see something kind of cool and go check it out. But there was hardly ever a payoff, so I stopped doing that.
This is one thing WoW did right- if you see something neat looking or out of the ordinary, exploring it may well net you some sort of reward in the form of a quest or two, or resources, or whatever.
If they added that kind of thing to our 'locations of note' in this game it'd go a long way toward incentivizing the kind of exploration Sam enjoys.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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It's interesting you mention Fallout 3 - and correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here - as an example of exploration done badly. I consider that game and Oblivion to be excellent places to just wander around in, as though neither world is all that large there are plenty of things to look at just for the sheer sake of seeing them. The Capital Wasteland does lack snow-covered areas and other variety of terrain, but otherwise there are lots of areas to poke around in which might or might not have some sort of "point". To me, exploring an area should occasionally take cues from real life, and have nothing there but scenery.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Of course, Fallout 3 demonstrates the sheer limitations of open terrain quite clearly. The game is TINY in comparison to all the other Fallout games, being consigned to, essentially, a small section of a city and its suburbia. It's also CRAMMED with copy-pasted metro tunnels, reused buildings and lots of flat ground to walk across. It's also a PAIN to get around, even if you want to explore. "Say, these hills on the map look suspicious. I wonder what's over there." 15 minutes later, there's only the location of a mission you haven't taken and can't do anything there. Cue the cluster F-bomb.
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I agree that Paragon City and the Rogue Isles are not particularly interesting places to explore, by and large. There are exceptions here and there, Oro and the Shadow Shard, and other places mentioned in that thread started by Dark_Respite. But the world isn't really intended for that either; as I'm sure has been pointed out, this game is not the same kind of world, it's basically like...well, a lot of console RPGs come to mind, as there are usually world maps you can travel around on, but the actual content is all within the named areas. CHV thinks like that, on a smaller scale than EQ, FFXI, etc. It's not quite as simple as just adding a new map.
Regarding the emphasis on rewards, I feel the game has changed a lot since a few issues ago, and to me it's not for the better. Or maybe I should say, the rewards themselves have changed, and the game followed suit. Doom? No, quite the contrary actually, lots of people are much happier I'm sure. Eh, maybe I'm just burned out, or projecting, there's just so little...spark, magic, passion, any more.
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There's a combination of things at work. The fact that the game hasn't changed in any significant way in terms of gameplay. There are no new mechanics or environmental challenges. No puzzles etc. But we got more...stuff.|
Originally Posted by Primal
Regarding the emphasis on rewards, I feel the game has changed a lot since a few issues ago, and to me it's not for the better. Or maybe I should say, the rewards themselves have changed, and the game followed suit. Doom? No, quite the contrary actually, lots of people are much happier I'm sure. Eh, maybe I'm just burned out, or projecting, there's just so little...spark, magic, passion, any more.
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Now the lack of gameplay advancement may well have been due to it being held back for GR. But GR isn't here yet. So people who are coming into the game are basically getting the same fundamental game, but there's these easy rewards dangling right in front of them.
Something we forget. All these QoL improvements and power tweaks. The real numbers and stats. And even the Inventions. None of that stuff is going to seem as wonderful to a new player because they have never had the game without them. So all that aside...what is there that we have gotten that's new in terms of content and content execution that is different in the past 6 issues? Not a whole lot.
Again, all that MAY be fixed with GR...but we don't have GR now.
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I seem to remember I14 delivering some sort of system that was new and different and had a lot of content...hmmmm. What was it called again?
| what is there that we have gotten that's new in terms of content and content execution that is different in the past 6 issues? |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Poop?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I seem to remember I14 delivering some sort of system that was new and different and had a lot of content...hmmmm. What was it called again?
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I agree and disagree. I like exploration badges in some out of the way place, but at the same time I agree that there should be more exploration badges that involve you going to see something significant.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
r/e exploration badges, the problem I've always had with them is they're very rarely put somewhere you would go naturally (like the top of the Atlas globe, or through the doughnut hole in Faultline). They're usually in some nondescript, out of the way place you'd never, ever find except by random chance or checking the internet.
Fewer exploration badges placed at points of interest would be much more of a draw for me than a huge number a normal player would never be able to find. Years back I'd be travelling around a zone, see something kind of cool and go check it out. But there was hardly ever a payoff, so I stopped doing that. |
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Or perhaps Power-Leveler 1.1|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Poop?
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Seriously. I know you think that MA is some kind of radical gameplay advancement, Nethergoat. Unfortunately for me...I still see the same tired old mission formulas and objectives that have been here since issue 1. We just have lots of stories(many of questionable quality) to go with them.
Gameplay advancement, for me, is something that changes the way we execute missions. Gives us more and different things to do in them, makes environments matter, allows us different ways to defeat(or maybe otherwise neutralize) our enemies.
I'd like some things that resemble the detective work and snooping that goes with heroes in most comics. Some choices to make that affect what happens next instead of a straight ride on a roller coaster with rails. Things like that would represent an advancement in basic gameplay.
I suppose MA is great if you're into farming/PLing...or if you really like seeing what stories people can come up with(at your own risk of sanity and/or bad grammar overload). I gave it the old college try as I've done everything that the devs have added to the game and even have an arc somewhere that I think is still working.
Still I think there are people who are tired of the same old mission formulas and want some new things done to enhance the way we approach our crime fighting or acts of villainy
.Meh...maybe I'm in the minority.
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You know what just occurred to me? On the matter of exploration badges being hard to find because they are in out of the way places.|
Originally Posted by Oddballica
I agree and disagree. I like exploration badges in some out of the way place, but at the same time I agree that there should be more exploration badges that involve you going to see something significant.
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Why didn't we get some kind of indicator that flashes as we get close to an area with a badge that we don't have? I was playing Far Cry 2 just now and the green light that flashes on your GPS when you get near a diamond cache is just the sort of thing that might encourage people to wander around the city and find interesting places with exploration badges.
It would mostly negate people having to use external websites to find a badge spot that you've been passing by for ages while never knowing something interesting was close by. It would make badge hunting a bit more fun as the indicator flashes more strongly when you get closer to the area of interest. Might encourage people to zip around the city with a bit less disregard of where and what they are passing by. Who knows?
I'm sorry, CoH already has ALOT of exploration. So much so that there are zones that are pretty much unused/never visited (DA, Boomtown, Eden, etc)
CoV may not suffer from this problem, but CoH sure does. Honestly, I think alot of the zones in CoH could use some "Faultline" style re-vamping.
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Actually, leave the out of the way badges be- I don't bother with them, but they're around for the people who're into it. |
Originally Posted by Oddballica
I agree and disagree. I like exploration badges in some out of the way place, but at the same time I agree that there should be more exploration badges that involve you going to see something significant.
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But it would be nice if we had more in the sort of obvious locations our mythical 'casual gamer' would be likely to check out during their adventures.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
Seriously. I know you think that MA is some kind of radical gameplay advancement, Nethergoat.
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That's "new". That's "content". Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Pretending the devs have been playing tiddlywinks and not giving us anything of note in the last six issues requires ignoring a huge genre innovation.
In other words, your bias is showing.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Which, unless you weren't reading my post completely is a big part of my problem with MA.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The gameplay is the same as we from the rest of the package.
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| The revolution is in putting a fairly robust SDK in the hands of players opening up limitless frontiers of story exploration. |
We probably have a few decent story spinners in our community. Probably a few that are more than decent that use the MA. How many people have been using the MA for the great stories that are available? And how is having more story content addressing my previous point about innovative new forms of gameplay?
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That's "new". That's "content". Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Pretending the devs have been playing tiddlywinks and not giving us anything of note in the last six issues requires ignoring a huge genre innovation. In other words, your bias is showing. |
Also, if MA was really this huge genre innovation(and we're not the first MMO to do player made content), where is the huge splash in the MMO world that it supposedly made? For that matter, how did it change the entire CoX gameworld for the better? How do other people see MA?
On several of the gaming sites I visit, whenever there's a news post or blurb about MA, most of the comments are about farming and PLing. Regardless of the accuracy of those comments, that's mostly how people from the outside are seeing MA in CoX.
And so for me, it didn't offer this huge revolution in gameplay. My powers still work the same, enemies still act the same, the environments are still as static as before and no new gameplay elements have been added to the basic mission structure. But we have a long list of stories of questionable quality to wade through and maybe find some decent ones. So yes...perhaps my bias is showing.
Shame on me for wanting cooler things to do in missions.
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I don't care what your problem with MA is.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
Which, unless you weren't reading my post completely is a big part of my problem with MA.
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You say we got no new content for the last six issues.
That isn't true.
You can like MA or not like it.
But it exists, and its new, and its content.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Back when I finally got my stalker to 50 - my first and so far only 50 villain - one of the things I did with her was take her into the Monster Island zone off Grandville and look around. It was of course empty and that felt like a real shame, but something about it felt different, starting with the fishing Arachnos guy on the sub.
It also felt something of a shame there wasn't more to see in there, but it was still quite fun, I think I was in there for over an hour; stalkers are of course the best toon for this. I'd love to see them introduce something in there to encourage people to team and monster fight or something, anything. I once was on a team where we went and did that but we weren't quite high enough level to take anything down so that didn't last long.
(yes yes, I know, "form your own team!")
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Most of those zones are ones that have already been mentioned as ways to do the exploration thing dead wrong. Boomtown is basically the same handful of ruined building models copied over and over, while DA is just Generic City Zone #34858 with fog on top of it. Neither of them have any really unique features in them to stumble across. It's like 'exploring' a grocery store. Lots of junk, sure, but none of it's new or interesting and you're not exactly going to find much of a payoff compared to somebody who just gets in, takes care of what they need, and gets out.
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Originally Posted by Foxy_Phoenix
I'm sorry, CoH already has ALOT of exploration. So much so that there are zones that are pretty much unused/never visited (DA, Boomtown, Eden, etc)
CoV may not suffer from this problem, but CoH sure does. Honestly, I think alot of the zones in CoH could use some "Faultline" style re-vamping. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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"Limitless"? Seriously? If you've played one farm you've played them all. Sure, one might can change the mob type, spawn level/size, etc. but the overall goal of every single farm that exists is exactly the same: kill everything on the map. That's not "limitless" in the slightlest. In fact just the opposite.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The gameplay is the same as we from the rest of the package. The revolution is in putting a fairly robust SDK in the hands of players opening up limitless frontiers of story exploration.
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Yeah, the same can be said of radio missions, I'm not denying that, but at least with radio missions you're in and out in about 10-15 minutes.
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| That's "new". That's "content". Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Pretending the devs have been playing tiddlywinks and not giving us anything of note in the last six issues requires ignoring a huge genre innovation. |
All MA truly did in terms of "new content" was turn something that was mostly a high level activity into something that's accessible to people of every level. That's it.
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| In other words, your bias is showing. |
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The Abandoned Sewer Network is little more than a really big generic sewer mission, but it still inspired the OP.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Most of those zones are ones that have already been mentioned as ways to do the exploration thing dead wrong. Boomtown is basically the same handful of ruined building models copied over and over, while DA is just Generic City Zone #34858 with fog on top of it. Neither of them have any really unique features in them to stumble across. It's like 'exploring' a grocery store. Lots of junk, sure, but none of it's new or interesting and you're not exactly going to find much of a payoff compared to somebody who just gets in, takes care of what they need, and gets out.
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Character index
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Fact of the matter is it IS/WAS content that folks requested and wanted to see. Not everything that comes out every issue is for everyone, but it IS CONTENT.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
"Limitless"? Seriously? If you've played one farm you've played them all. Sure, one might can change the mob type, spawn level/size, etc. but the overall goal of every single farm that exists is exactly the same: kill everything on the map. That's not "limitless" in the slightlest. In fact just the opposite.
Yeah, the same can be said of radio missions, I'm not denying that, but at least with radio missions you're in and out in about 10-15 minutes. If you want to get super technical then yes, it's "new" in the sense that one day it didn't exist in the game and the next day it did, but in terms of offering innovative content, no. Sure, some people have made some arcs that they actually put some thought into, but on the whole MA isn't largely used for that purpose. All MA truly did in terms of "new content" was turn something that was mostly a high level activity into something that's accessible to people of every level. That's it. And yours isn't? You can't really call someone on something that you're also guilty of. That's called hypocrisy. |
Personally I thought issue 15 had jack shite for content, as I still find both the sf and tf lackluster. To me the 5th column is simply a palette swap of the council. I'm COMPLETELY UNIMPRESSED with either faction or their stories. (Always have been). The only impressive things are their AVs--and you don't see them that often. (And no, I don't include godlike Mr. new AV in the new sfs and tfs, as I find his bag of hp design to be idiotically stupid) Others would disagree.
I also think that issue 16 is awesome with powerset proliferation. Though it took a lot of work to get done, I think when power cust comes out I'll be done playing with it in less than an day. Some would say that epicly small in terms of the definition of content.
And ofcourse there are some that would both issues 15 and 16 aren't content as there technically were no new dev created STORYLINE ARCs. (like in issue 13 with Cim)
Point of the matter is one man's content is another's garbage.
EDIT: with all that said, so that there is no confusion I liked issues 14-16, but I don't agree that they were the best issues to date. Far from it. From a technical standpoint they were the most impressive in terms of seeing what a professional, well experienced dev team that listens to it's players can put together. Unlike some other dev teams that will remain nameless (cough *champion's team* cough
). I'm looking forward more to Going Rogue now than issue 16, after having playing with power cust on Open Beta. The things I wanted to really customize won't be customizable for some time. (mm pets, khelds, granite, etc).
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DA is vastly more interesting that Boomtown.|
Originally Posted by Kelenar
Most of those zones are ones that have already been mentioned as ways to do the exploration thing dead wrong. Boomtown is basically the same handful of ruined building models copied over and over, while DA is just Generic City Zone #34858 with fog on top of it. Neither of them have any really unique features in them to stumble across.
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Most of it is generic city, but Moth Cemetary has a lot of cool stuff to check out.
Still nothing to do there except blow up zombies (and Adamastor, if he's around), but the back end of DA is visually interesting and distinct.
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
"Limitless"? Seriously? If you've played one farm you've played them all.
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It has as many differet types of missions as it has types of authors.
Yes, players who like farming are going to make farm missions.
And story lovers will make story missions, canon historians will make missions they enjoy, etc etc.
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| Sure, one might can change the mob type, spawn level/size, etc. but the overall goal of every single farm that exists is exactly the same: kill everything on the map. That's not "limitless" in the slightlest. In fact just the opposite. |
Oh well, you lose.
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| If you want to get super technical then yes, it's "new" in the sense that one day it didn't exist in the game and the next day it did... |
It's new, it's content.
Period.
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| but in terms of offering innovative content, no. |
How many MMOs are there?
How many offer players the ability to create their own missions and tell their own stories?
MA is absoultely innovative.
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| Sure, some people have made some arcs that they actually put some thought into, but on the whole MA isn't largely used for that purpose. |
There is a metric ton of stuff to play in there.
If you go in looking for farms, you'll find them.
If you go in looking for stories, you'll find them.
They co-exist quite well, just as they do in the 'real' game.
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| All MA truly did in terms of "new content" was turn something that was mostly a high level activity into something that's accessible to people of every level. That's it. |
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| And yours isn't? You can't really call someone on something that you're also guilty of. That's called hypocrisy. |
That isn't bias, that's observing reality.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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This I will agree is true. It wasn't there before and its there now.| MA is new... |
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| MA is innovative... |
Is it Innovative? I guess the work that went into it and the ease of use of the interface may qualify...so Ok. There is a some innovation in its design.
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| MA is content. |
You can shut your eyes and scream innovation all you want. But in terms of adding innovative elements to gameplay. We got zip! Nada! Nothing!
The last innovative elements to gameplay that this game really got were Mayhem missions. No matter how intricately I weave my story. Whether I'm a Terry Goodkind, Stephen King or Robert Jordan...there is NOTHING I can do with MA besides make missions that are kill alls, kidnaps, escorts or glowie clicks. If something else has been added to MA that exceeds the mission options that we've had for the last 5 years(which haven't changed in any way), then please enlighten and educate me.
You can shut your eyes and pretend that you don't see what I'm saying and talk about bias as much as you like. My point remains that MA is a weak and limiting SDK...because that's all it CAN be. This is an MMO and we can't be allowed to use our own art assets, makes our own powers up or change the terrain and make our own maps. But even all that is besides my point. The devs have not delivered any huge pieces of story content and missions to this game since the second Rikti Invasion. Even the Midnighter stuff was relatively small.
That doesn't mean I'm saying they did nothing. They have done a lot of great work on this game. But they obviously have been holding stuff back with GR cooking in development. At least that's my bet. YMMV.
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| That isn't bias, that's observing reality. |
My point that you decided to completely ignore, Nethergoat, was that if I go to Atlas Park right now the vast majority of all of the people crammed in the zone looking for MA teams are not looking for the thought provoking story missions. They're looking for farms. Farms are the majority of the reason why so many people flock to the AE, not the story, and you're kidding yourself if you even so much as think otherwise.
If MA were used just for stories and you didn't even have the option of creating a mindless, boring, lame farm I probably wouldn't mind it as much, but as it is MA is nothing more than a virus hypnotizing everyone. I miss the days when I could log into SC and see team after team after team being formed. Nowadays everyone's off doing MA instead, and most of the tells I get to team are for MA.
You mention MA being innovative because no other MMO lets you make your own content, but what other MMO also lets you level up to the cap in the flippin' starting zone? Now that's just pathetic...
Also, do you even know what biased means? It means that no matter what anyone says you're pretty much always going to have the same opinion. I am biased against MA. No matter what anyone says I will always despise it. You, however, seem to be biased for MA, and nothing anyone says will change your mind that it's a great system even if it's not, and by if I mean definitely
Arguments about MA aren't innovative at all. 
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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So if before the MA, the vast majority of people looking for teams in Peregrine Island (the level 50 zone) were looking for farms, that means even before the MA CoH had very little level 50 content that wasn't farms?
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
My point that you decided to completely ignore, Nethergoat, was that if I go to Atlas Park right now the vast majority of all of the people crammed in the zone looking for MA teams are not looking for the thought provoking story missions. They're looking for farms. Farms are the majority of the reason why so many people flock to the AE, not the story, and you're kidding yourself if you even so much as think otherwise.
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Character index
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Except back then it was just a level 50 thing. Now it's something available to all levels, and being someone who finds farms mind-numbingly boring and dull you can see why I don't particularly care for MA.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
So if before the MA, the vast majority of people looking for teams in Peregrine Island (the level 50 zone) were looking for farms, that means even before the MA CoH had very little level 50 content that wasn't farms?
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It also comes down to the whole "empty space issue".
I don't mind them building wilderness. But at least have SOMETHING, ANYTHING to do in them that can be done casually.
For a game that rewards casual, PUG play, the design of the Shard ALWAYS baffled me.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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