We need more exploration
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-09-03 03:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There are several differences between MA and PI.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
So if before the MA, the vast majority of people looking for teams in Peregrine Island (the level 50 zone) were looking for farms, that means even before the MA CoH had very little level 50 content that wasn't farms?
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The most obvious being convenience. For a level 1 toon to get to PI takes a bit of effort if that person is a brand new player. And a brand new player would not ordinarily even attempt to get to PI without participating in at least a bit of the game beforehand because most of em don't know about PI powerleveling.
Now that is not to say that newbs don't ask to get powerleveled or don't attempt to find ways to level fast. However, MA has made it so much more convenient that its not even funny. This is all a moot point come issue 16 anyway.
But to address your point. There is no level 50 content in this game. There is content that you can do at level 50 that you can also do at level 45(SFs TFs). There is content that you can do at 50 that you didn't get to do in the earlier levels. But really...there was never any endgame content targeted at max level players only.
People who wanted to farm would look for 'farmable' missions and do that. Like Dreck before he got a timer nerf etc.
I'm not sure what else you're trying to say.
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If that's what you meant, that's what you should have said.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
My point that you decided to completely ignore, Nethergoat, was that if I go to Atlas Park right now the vast majority of all of the people crammed in the zone looking for MA teams are not looking for the thought provoking story missions.
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Then I could have saved myself a lot of typing and responded "so what?"
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| They're looking for farms. Farms are the majority of the reason why so many people flock to the AE, not the story, and you're kidding yourself if you even so much as think otherwise. |
The aren't the only use and only the developers know if they're the majority use. Broadcast spam is a poor determinant of what "everyone" is doing in a game where many players disable it and make use of global channels to communicate.
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| If MA were used just for stories and you didn't even have the option of creating a mindless, boring, lame farm I probably wouldn't mind it as much, but as it is MA is nothing more than a virus hypnotizing everyone. |
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| I miss the days when I could log into SC and see team after team after team being formed. Nowadays everyone's off doing MA instead, and most of the tells I get to team are for MA. |
Don't blame MA because you fail to adapt to environmental changes.
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| You mention MA being innovative because no other MMO lets you make your own content, but what other MMO also lets you level up to the cap in the flippin' starting zone? Now that's just pathetic... |
But if you'd rather whine and cry than enjoy an amazing addition to the game simply because you're too hidebound to understand what it is, be my guest. I don't care if you like it or not, or understand it or not. Enough players do like and understand it that the attitudes of blinkered folk like you and Slash are irrelevant.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Wow, so because me and Slash don't make up the majority that makes us "irrelevant" and "wrong"? We aren't allowed to not like MA lest we be viewed as "lesser players" is that what you're saying?|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't care if you like it or not, or understand it or not. Enough players do like and understand it that the attitudes of blinkered folk like you and Slash are irrelevant.
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Newsflash: The majority isn't always right.
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Being wrong makes you wrong.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Wow, so because me and Slash don't make up the majority that makes us "irrelevant" and "wrong"? We aren't allowed to not like MA lest we be viewed as "lesser players" is that what you're saying?
Newsflash: The majority isn't always right. |
Your position being ridiculous makes it irrelevant.
but please continue feeling like some sort of persecuted freedom fighter for the cause of...uh, whatever you're on about.
*salutes*
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I missed this before because it was such a black hole of stupidity it was invisible to the naked eye.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
The last innovative elements to gameplay that this game really got were Mayhem missions. No matter how intricately I weave my story. Whether I'm a Terry Goodkind, Stephen King or Robert Jordan...there is NOTHING I can do with MA besides make missions that are kill alls, kidnaps, escorts or glowie clicks. If something else has been added to MA that exceeds the mission options that we've had for the last 5 years(which haven't changed in any way), then please enlighten and educate me.
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There is NOTHING Stephen King can do except write words on paper!!1
Which is enough to tell any story he likes, isn't it?
ditto for MA.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I dunno, MA sure does not feel limited to me. Within the confines of the space requirements you can combine the various tools presented to you in very complex ways. Chaining objectives can do wonders for making missions feel innovative. Sure they are based on simple tasks, but so is most everything.
But thats just me. Your results may vary.
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I'm assuming by my "position" you mean my opinion. My opinion is simply that I don't like MA farms (or farms in general), and yet you say that's ridiculous as if one cannot have such an opinion because to you it's unthinkable how anyone could have a differing opinion from yours, and those that do you just label as "wrong and ridiculous". Real mature logic you got there, buddy.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Being wrong makes you wrong.
Your position being ridiculous makes it irrelevant. but please continue feeling like some sort of persecuted freedom fighter for the cause of...uh, whatever you're on about. *salutes* |
I think I'm just about done here. I can only argue with someone who's entire basis of a debate is sticking his fingers in his ears and going "LALALALALALALA YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME SO YOU DON'T EXIST LALALALALALA" for so long...
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Ok...first, I don't dislike MA because people farm in it. I've got friends who farm in this game. It's simply not an activity that I like or want to take part in. I have two fifties and countless alts. I'm in no hurry to level and I'm not particularly hurting for cash so I can buy IOs if and when I want for my toons.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Being wrong makes you wrong.
Your position being ridiculous makes it irrelevant. but please continue feeling like some sort of persecuted freedom fighter for the cause of...uh, whatever you're on about. *salutes* |
My dislike of MA has nothing to do with farmers...and I don't think I have stated otherwise in this post. My dislike of MA is the fact that the available content isn't all that great and the in-mission gameplay is still the same old that we've had for 5 years. MA isn't going away and at this point I don't care.
What I want to see from the developers is deeper gameplay and content built around it. You can continue to farm or treasure hunt for decent stories on MA all you want. The changes in issue 16 should take care of most of the annoying tells etc. centered around MA activities.
You keep seeing what you want to see, Nethergoat. I can understand if the current content in the game is just your thing. Great for you. I, on the other hand, think this game could be a lot better if the devs concentrated on adding some new game systems and mechanics that made basic missions more immersive and less repetitive. This was never about bashing MA farming. The devs know what they want and do not want in the MA and are taking appropriate steps.
You seem to be the one ready to jump up and take up arms in defense of something I really couldn't care less about. I want the game to live up to its potential, and I don't think a giant farm-sim is what the devs have in mind. You can take it up with them though.
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No. What he's saying is that just because some players use the MA for farms does not make it "not content". Similarly, just because you personally don't like/use the MA doesn't make it "not content". Therefore, your assertion that "the last few issues had barely any content" is wrong.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Wow, so because me and Slash don't make up the majority that makes us "irrelevant" and "wrong"? We aren't allowed to not like MA lest we be viewed as "lesser players" is that what you're saying?
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As an example: I don't enjoy PvP, I stay out of PvP zones, I don't go to the Arena, but if there was a Issue that was mostly PvP focused and added dozens of new maps and some new PvP modes, I wouldn't say "this issue has no content". I would say "There is not much in this issue for me", and "maybe next Issue will have something that interests me".
Character index
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Cool, but I wasn't the one who said the last few issues had no content. That was Slashman |
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
No. What he's saying is that just because some players use the MA for farms does not make it "not content". Similarly, just because you personally don't like/use the MA doesn't make it "not content". Therefore, your assertion that "the last few issues had barely any content" is wrong.
As an example: I don't enjoy PvP, I stay out of PvP zones, I don't go to the Arena, but if there was a Issue that was mostly PvP focused and added dozens of new maps and some new PvP modes, I wouldn't say "this issue has no content". I would say "There is not much in this issue for me", and "maybe next Issue will have something that interests me". |
My points were more on the innovation of it, not the technicality.
Let me requote the post where I explained my POV and why I made the statement that I did, because obviously no one bothered to read past the fact that I didn't find MA to be a huge bag of wow(no pun intended).
This is what I said:
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Then I went on to say what I felt would be something that advanced the game. My opinion, of course:| Seriously. I know you think that MA is some kind of radical gameplay advancement, Nethergoat. Unfortunately for me...I still see the same tired old mission formulas and objectives that have been here since issue 1. We just have lots of stories(many of questionable quality) to go with them. |
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Gameplay advancement, for me, is something that changes the way we execute missions. Gives us more and different things to do in them, makes environments matter, allows us different ways to defeat(or maybe otherwise neutralize) our enemies. I'd like some things that resemble the detective work and snooping that goes with heroes in most comics. Some choices to make that affect what happens next instead of a straight ride on a roller coaster with rails. Things like that would represent an advancement in basic gameplay. |
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| I suppose MA is great if you're into farming/PLing...or if you really like seeing what stories people can come up with(at your own risk of sanity and/or bad grammar overload). I gave it the old college try as I've done everything that the devs have added to the game and even have an arc somewhere that I think is still working. |
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Still I think there are people who are tired of the same old mission formulas and want some new things done to enhance the way we approach our crime fighting or acts of villainy. Meh...maybe I'm in the minority. |
I'll also clarify further on innovation.
Is MA innovative in the sense that it's an option available in CoX that isn't readily available in most other MMOs? Yes, I'll give you that one.
Is it innovative in the sense of offering new and refreshing content never before seen in the game? No, not really.
Sure, I might could create a story arc that involves giant gophers running amok all over Paragon City, and the last mission involves having to go into their cave lair to extract the Super Secret X Chemical that's been mutating them, thereby returning all the gophers to their normal size.
Is that an innovative mission? No. It's essentially just another "click the shiny" mission. The story behind it is creative perhaps, but the actual mission itself is not innovative, and there's a big distinction there.
I think some people are just confusing innovation with creativity. They aren't the same thing.
Yeah...what Neg Rogue said.
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Hey, how about you just make up a non-existent context to misquote me in, pretend that's what I meant and then have an argument with yourself while I add you to my ignore list?|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
I'm assuming by my "position" you mean my opinion. My opinion is simply that I don't like MA farms (or farms in general), and yet you say that's ridiculous as if one cannot have such an opinion because to you it's unthinkable how anyone could have a differing opinion from yours, and those that do you just label as "wrong and ridiculous". Real mature logic you got there, buddy.
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*thumbsup*
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I ve seen you in a better mood.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Hey, how about you just make up a non-existent context to misquote me in, pretend that's what I meant and then have an argument with yourself while I add you to my ignore list?
*thumbsup* |
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There's nothing to quibble about, the meaning is generally agreed upon.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
This stuff has been my point from the start. But if you want to quibble about what constitutes meaningful content then I guess we can do that.
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Your insistence that content has to clear the hurdle of your idiosyncratic, biased definitions or it doesn't "count" makes discussion pointless.
You're less of a soup-brain than neq_rogue, which makes your agreement with his incoherent, contradictory and misguided attacks either hilarious or pathetic, I'm not sure which.
Either way, enjoy your stay on the ignore list.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I thought I was being quite restrained! |
Originally Posted by bracass
I ve seen you in a better mood.
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=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
*GASP* I'm on Nethergoat's ignore list! Say it isn't so...
I kinda feel like giggling...
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Signed and tattooed on everyone's forehead.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Arguments about MA aren't innovative at all.
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I know, right? When you can't beat em', ignore em'! Such a nice feature |
Originally Posted by Slashman
*GASP* I'm on Nethergoat's ignore list! Say it isn't so...
I kinda feel like giggling... |
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Nah, reading through the thread it seems Nether likes to ignore those he has already beaten but are delusional and think they have a strong position. |
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
I know, right? When you can't beat em', ignore em'! Such a nice feature
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Attempting to get the thread back on topic, some things may be insurmountable due to playstyles and gameplay culture. However, making changes to some zones, mentioning that changes have happened, yet not giving the full details of what changed may subtly urge some people to explore a bit. Adding some new zone events that are easily noticed but not "dire" like the current WARNING! ZOMBIES WILL KILL US ALL!1! may also draw some people's attention. The main thing is that it has to be organic so that players have less of a "been there, done that" feeling.
I have nothing to add to the fight here, but if you're interested in exploration, you might consider the city part of Grandville. There's a lot more to it than difficult travel, a few high-traffic mission doors, and the Fab and its tunnels (which are also interesting). Specifically, I recommend trying to get from the top of the tower to the Gutter without flying, just leaping off, or taking an elevator. I did this for the comic in my sig, and it remains one of things I enjoyed most in the game. Not much fighting, though there are some turrets, Mu patrols, and Bane spawns that'll target you, but it's interesting trying to plot out a route.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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I'd love more stuff like the fires in Steel, but a bit more repeatable. Or, as Fred S. suggested somewhere else, use the invasion code for zone events/monsters so everyone who happens to be around can join in and get some exp.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Attempting to get the thread back on topic, some things may be insurmountable due to playstyles and gameplay culture. However, making changes to some zones, mentioning that changes have happened, yet not giving the full details of what changed may subtly urge some people to explore a bit. Adding some new zone events that are easily noticed but not "dire" like the current WARNING! ZOMBIES WILL KILL US ALL!1! may also draw some people's attention. The main thing is that it has to be organic so that players have less of a "been there, done that" feeling.
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The occasional APB for an escaped villain would be fun, or even something like the 'Vandals!' alert from the Safeguard missions.
For villains it could be reacting to a Freedom Corps strike force, or hijacking a ship that strayed from the safe waters of Paragon.
There's a lot they could do to liven up the zones- I'm hoping GR will feature a more interactive 'world' than the one we've got now.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Is it Innovative? I guess the work that went into it and the ease of use of the interface may qualify...so Ok. There is a some innovation in its design.
It is content. All those players writing missions are being engaged by the the game- that's content. All the players running those missions are being engaged by the game- that's content.
Your "argument" is completely laughable.
You can't even keep yourself on message from paragraph to paragraph, can you.
You're casting about for ways to justify a ridiculous argument.
It's much easier to say "oh wait, you're right" and move on. You don't get out of a hole by digging harder & deeper.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone