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Considering it's perhaps the best soft mitigation that Ice/ has to offer. No. |
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
would Ice Patch maybe be a decent candidate to think about getting rid of?
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It does a much better job than low percentage low mag confusion auras, i'll tell you that.
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Originally Posted by Xemulas
Considering it's perhaps the best soft mitigation that Ice/ has to offer. No.
It does a much better job than low percentage low mag confusion auras, i'll tell you that. |
AA = 30% chance for mag 3 confusion
WoC = Mag 2 confusion, 20% chance for mag 1 confusion
Contagious confusion = 33% chance for mag 3 confusion
The mag isn't bad, its more about the unpredictability that those chances actually go off, that makes it ice slick better soft control. However unlike ice slick, the confuses can be used with frostbite.
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In a team setting, I like to use Ice Slick as my opener under the melee guys, then run in with AA running. Adding World of Confusion should make the combo pretty sick. Ice Slick is great mitigation of most of the initial strike, as long as you don't have another controller on the team spamming AoE Immobilize.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I have an Ice/Storm that has been sitting at around level 35 for a while whom I might dig out solely because of World of Confusion. I was wondering if AA + WoC + the Contagious Confusion proc would be as good as I think it would. As far as skippable powers in such a build... would Ice Patch maybe be a decent candidate to think about getting rid of? I'm definitely going to be getting rid of Hurricane and I was thinking that locking things down with my AoE Immob and then using Tornadoes, Lightning Storm and Freezing Rain to help destroy things with a proc'd Snow Storm and AA and Jack Frost beating them up.
Would this end up working alright? |
Frostbite alone will get you shot at. Tornado and Lightning Storm will do damage, and Tornado will pass out an occasional stun, but you will still get shot at. Of course Frostbite will stop the knockdown in Freezing Rain for 12 seconds, so that won't help either. I prefer to use Ice Slick first, run in to establish control with AA or let the tank draw aggro, then use my damage powers after the foes are distracted/controled.
I left out Flashfreeze, Shiver and Thunderclap on my Ill/Storm. I wouldn't leave out Ice Slick. The Slick is an effective form of AoE control. I also keep Hurricane, even though I don't use it all that often. It is a situational power, effective for positioning, acting as a barrier and "panic button" moments. I love Hurricane for cul de sacs, to push all the foes into the back, then unleash Freezing Rain, Tornado and Lightning Storm without fear of knockback.
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I agree, I think you'd regret skipping ice slick.
I'd have to see the rest of your build to make any recommendations though
I've been waiting for Cold Domination to be proliferated so I could roll an Ice/Cold Controller instead of my Ice/Rad.
WoC only makes that decision harder now as I would like to see how AA + Choking Cloud + WoC + the purple proc would work. Not sure if that would be overkill for area control or not...I might need to do what I always do in these situations and roll them both up.
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What do you have against your poor, innocent endurance bar?
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Originally Posted by Grimlek
WoC only makes that decision harder now as I would like to see how AA + Choking Cloud + WoC + the purple proc would work.
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What do you need endurance for if you can just walk in and everything is controlled . . . let the team do the killing while you are lazy.
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Originally Posted by Hart
What do you have against your poor, innocent endurance bar?
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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And with Power Customisation you can be colour coordinated while doing it! |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
What do you need endurance for if you can just walk in and everything is controlled . . . let the team do the killing while you are lazy.
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I was thinking of Ice/Rad/Psi because of the potential for 3 control auras but have decided to go Ice/Cold/Psi because of the endurance issue (Ive never been one for just standing there!) and because of if things are held then if they get confused they can't attack anyone!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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I went a different Route with my Ice/Storm. She plays completely at range, and so I took Shiver instead of AA. I play VERY aggressively so I wasn't able to use AA and still do everything else I wanted to with the character.
Ice Slick + Freezing Rain( double proced ) + Shiver + Frost Bite + Frost Breath + Snow Storm + Ice Storm = Neutered Dead Mobs no matter what you are playing against. Half the time they are all dead before you get to Ice Storm. I notice that this approach is quite a bit more survivable than with my Ice/Rad who is running AA + Choking Cloud and runs into the middle of the mobs.
It's just a thought for an alternate approach to Ice/Storm than most people take, and it leaves you with a lot of endurance for any mayhem your heart desires.
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With different color themes, Radiation doesn't even need to be Radiation anymore |
Originally Posted by Tired Angel
And with Power Customisation you can be colour coordinated while doing it!
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If I had to choose between (fully slotted) Ice Slick and AA, no question in my mind I'd want AA. Really, both are even better. I'd be more inclined to say skip Flash Freeze, Glacier, even Shiver. It's a shame about not having Hurricane for the right circumstances, and I've always taken it eventually on /storm controllers, but I can see delaying it, for sure.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I have an Ice/Storm that has been sitting at around level 35 for a while whom I might dig out solely because of World of Confusion. I was wondering if AA + WoC + the Contagious Confusion proc would be as good as I think it would. As far as skippable powers in such a build... would Ice Patch maybe be a decent candidate to think about getting rid of? I'm definitely going to be getting rid of Hurricane and I was thinking that locking things down with my AoE Immob and then using Tornadoes, Lightning Storm and Freezing Rain to help destroy things with a proc'd Snow Storm and AA and Jack Frost beating them up.
Would this end up working alright? |
WoC + fully slotted AA would indeed be awesome. Did they slip WoC into a controller Epic when I wasn't looking? I've been wary of putting contagious in toggles because, I thought they nerfed that or something.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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When it's fully slotted for duration, AA becomes effectively a 70% (I think that's right. Something like that...) chance mag 3 confusion, because of the potential overlap. WITH all the other crazy moveslow/afraid/rechargedebuff, it's a beast in the hands of anybody who can survive it's ~3 second warmup.
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Originally Posted by Dread_Shinobi
AA = 30% chance for mag 3 confusion
WoC = Mag 2 confusion, 20% chance for mag 1 confusion Contagious confusion = 33% chance for mag 3 confusion The mag isn't bad, its more about the unpredictability that those chances actually go off, that makes it ice slick better soft control. However unlike ice slick, the confuses can be used with frostbite. |
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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I-16 is adding World of Confusion as a 5th power in the Psi APP set for Controllers.
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Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
WoC + fully slotted AA would indeed be awesome. Did they slip WoC into a controller Epic when I wasn't looking? I've been wary of putting contagious in toggles because, I thought they nerfed that or something.
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Looks like I'll be able to fit in Hurricane and Ice Slick anyway.
Here are my power choices.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Block of Ice -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gale -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Frostbite -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Snow Storm -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Arctic Air -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Ice Slick -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Super Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Aid Other -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Aid Self -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Steamy Mist -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Thunder Clap -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Hurricane -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Jack Frost -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Tornado -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Indomitable Will -- Empty(A)
Level 44: World of Confusion -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Mind Over Body -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Psionic Tornado -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
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70%? Very nice, I didn't even think of the overlap.
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Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
When it's fully slotted for duration, AA becomes effectively a 70% (I think that's right. Something like that...) chance mag 3 confusion, because of the potential overlap. WITH all the other crazy moveslow/afraid/rechargedebuff, it's a beast in the hands of anybody who can survive it's ~3 second warmup.
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It's actually even better than that, because Arctic Air also has a chance for Afraid. So, even if the Confusion misses there is still a decent chance of the enemy trying to run. And, because Ice Controllers can floor an enemy's recharge and speed, enemies are less likely to shoot you during the moments they break the Confusion.|
Originally Posted by Dread_Shinobi
70%? Very nice, I didn't even think of the overlap.
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To maximize Arctic Air there are two pretty cool (excuse the pun) methods I've found. Both seem like they would work even better with World of Confusion thrown in the mix:
- If cover is available: Hide behind an obstacle and drop Ice Slick under the group of enemies. Wait for them to fall, then run from behind the obstacle, and hit the group with Shiver from range. Then jump in with Arctic Air. Any enemy hit by Shiver within range of AA now has its Recharge and Speed at the maximum penalty (x4 slower). By the time Ice Slick lets up, enemies should be firmly under control of AA.
- If no cover is available: Stealth or super speed into the group and hit Glacier. The Glacier doesnt last long, but by the time enemies break it, they are confused or feared by Arctic Air. (The recharge on Glacier prevents this from being an every-group strategy).
As it turns out, the most significant danger to an Ice Controller relying on toggles is getting mezzed, and the Mind epic happens to have an anti-mezz power. The only downside is that the Mind Epic's secondary effect is -Recharge, which does stack with Ice Control powers but quickly runs you into the cap.
As a side note, I often hear people say that Ice Control grants a choice between melee and ranged action. I agree with this, but not in the sense that an Ice Controller should pick to engage *only* at range of melee. Arctic Air and Shiver are not interchangeable powers.
IMO an Ice Controller should plan to take advantage of both melee and ranged debuffs. Arctic Air is how you handle what you can get close to and Shiver (or another source of slows and -recharge) is what you use on anything that escapes from AA or is too dangerous to stand close to (e.g. certain enemies that explode on death). Arctic Air is an absolutely amazing power; Shiver can't can't touch it in terms of effectiveness of stopping enemy fire. Unlike virtually any other Controller, an Ice/ running Arctic Air is usually safer with enemies standing close by than several feet away.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
It's actually even better than that, because Arctic Air also has a chance for Afraid. So, even if the Confusion misses there is still a decent chance of the enemy trying to run. And, because Ice Controllers can floor an enemy's recharge and speed, enemies are less likely to shoot you during the moments they break the Confusion.
To maximize Arctic Air there are two pretty cool (excuse the pun) methods I've found. Both seem like they would work even better with World of Confusion thrown in the mix: - If cover is available: Hide behind an obstacle and drop Ice Slick under the group of enemies. Wait for them to fall, then run from behind the obstacle, and hit the group with Shiver from range. Then jump in with Arctic Air. Any enemy hit by Shiver within range of AA now has its Recharge and Speed at the maximum penalty (x4 slower). By the time Ice Slick lets up, enemies should be firmly under control of AA. - If no cover is available: Stealth or super speed into the group and hit Glacier. The Glacier doesnt last long, but by the time enemies break it, they are confused or feared by Arctic Air. (The recharge on Glacier prevents this from being an every-group strategy). As it turns out, the most significant danger to an Ice Controller relying on toggles is getting mezzed, and the Mind epic happens to have an anti-mezz power. The only downside is that the Mind Epic's secondary effect is -Recharge, which does stack with Ice Control powers but quickly runs you into the cap. As a side note, I often hear people say that Ice Control grants a choice between melee and ranged action. I agree with this, but not in the sense that an Ice Controller should pick to engage *only* at range of melee. Arctic Air and Shiver are not interchangeable powers. IMO an Ice Controller should plan to take advantage of both melee and ranged debuffs. Arctic Air is how you handle what you can get close to and Shiver (or another source of slows and -recharge) is what you use on anything that escapes from AA or is too dangerous to stand close to (e.g. certain enemies that explode on death). Arctic Air is an absolutely amazing power; Shiver can't can't touch it in terms of effectiveness of stopping enemy fire. Unlike virtually any other Controller, an Ice/ running Arctic Air is usually safer with enemies standing close by than several feet away. |
I think it is a little presumptuous to say that a particular controller "should" do one thing or another. It varies with different playstyles and powerset combos. For example, my Ice controller is Ice/Storm . . . I don't need Shiver as a third slow power. I use Snow Storm instead of Shiver, and I have the slow in Freezing Rain as well. An Ice/Rad has Ling Rad, and an Ice/TA has Glue Arrow.
I do feel that Ice controllers can choose to stay at range by NOT choosing Arctic Air. Some prefer to play at range (like an Ice/TA might want to do). I'm not saying that having both Shiver and AA is a bad idea, but it can vary with playstyle and powersets.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Agreed. That's why I said Shiver or some other -recharge power. Shiver is interchangeable with many other powers.| I don't need Shiver as a third slow power. I use Snow Storm instead of Shiver, and I have the slow in Freezing Rain as well. An Ice/Rad has Ling Rad, and an Ice/TA has Glue Arrow. |
Arctic Air, however, is not. There is nothing else quite like it anywhere in the game. Certainly not Shiver.
I understand how you could consider my opinion presumptuous. However, the purpose of this discussion was to talk about strategy. IMO skipping Arctic Air--especially skipping it to replace it with Shiver--is a suboptimal strategy for most Ice Controller builds, akin to an Ilusion Controller skipping Phantom Army because you're "always grouped with a tank" or Stalagmites because you're "always hovering anyway."
First-- on review, I guess WoC's only an 8' radius? That's disappointing.
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Okay, I'm never convinced I calculated it right last time.|
Originally Posted by Dread_Shinobi
70%? Very nice, I didn't even think of the overlap.
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AA's confuse is base 3.725 second mag 3 pulse every 2 seconds, 30% chance, nonstacking, 1 second delay.
At +95% duration enhance, that's 7.264s duration.
At second ~2, it's a 30% confuse.
At second ~4, it's: 51%
This pulse: 30%
Prior pulse: 21%
Neither: 49%
At second ~6, it's: 65.7%
This pulse: 30%
Two-prior & prior: 6.3%
Two-prior: 14.7%
Prior: 14.7%
None: 34.3%
At second ~8, it's: 72.18%
this pulse: 30%
Prior Pulse: 21%
two-prior pulse: 14.7%
three-prior pulse: 10.29%-> 6.48% [1]
None: 24.01%
[1] This is the one that's screwy. Three pulses ago can't last through this entire two-second segment. The best it can do is 1.26 seconds out of this segment, or IOW 63%. So that three-prior-pulse thing of 10.29% becomes 6.48%
The gradual stacking across the first 8 seconds ought to be accounted for, if it's going to be compared to a flat AOE cast. If we agree a fight lasts forty seconds, the average % chance coverage over time becomes 65.079%
Even then, some might legitimately object that the first fifteen seconds or so of a fight are where controls matter, normally. I'm sure anybody can see why opinions might differ of this power, based on where you're using it and for what.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Eight foot radius. Ugh. I was hoping to slot AA, CC, and WoC with a couple of damage proc's, but that radius is disappointing. I suppose it's the same size as a tank's Blazing Aura, but still...
Anyway, assuming 3 procs in AA, 2 in CC, and, and 5 in WoC (just for giggles), if all the procs have a 20% chance to fire what are the odds that all of the procs would hit a single target? Even if it is something ridiculously small, like .00001%, it would be quite fun to see.
.2 × .2 × .2 × .2 × .2 × .2 × .2 × .2 × .2 × .2 = 0.0000001024
I believe that's a one in 9,765,625 chance.
... But on the flipside, there's a 89% chance that the target will be hit with at least one proc.
I'll be respecing into the Psi epic for my Fire/Rad. The mez protection has always been tempting, and WoC just seals the deal. I spend so much time in melee rang anyways, and now that I can change the color, I can control like a freak without clashing! (well, i might be clashing with my video card, but that's another story. Oh the particles!)
I will miss Consume, but I've got enough purps that end isn't much of a worry any more.
If the troller version of WoC is similiar to the Blaster version, the end consumption isn't much. .18 iirc.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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Your end bar would make baby jesus cry. Even with heavily slotting impervium armors and gift of the ancients.
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Originally Posted by Grimlek
I've been waiting for Cold Domination to be proliferated so I could roll an Ice/Cold Controller instead of my Ice/Rad.
WoC only makes that decision harder now as I would like to see how AA + Choking Cloud + WoC + the purple proc would work. Not sure if that would be overkill for area control or not...I might need to do what I always do in these situations and roll them both up. |
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I have an Ice/Storm that has been sitting at around level 35 for a while whom I might dig out solely because of World of Confusion. I was wondering if AA + WoC + the Contagious Confusion proc would be as good as I think it would. As far as skippable powers in such a build... would Ice Patch maybe be a decent candidate to think about getting rid of? I'm definitely going to be getting rid of Hurricane and I was thinking that locking things down with my AoE Immob and then using Tornadoes, Lightning Storm and Freezing Rain to help destroy things with a proc'd Snow Storm and AA and Jack Frost beating them up.
Would this end up working alright?