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Originally Posted by Wavicle
I wouldn't bet on it out dpsing Every defender.
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Originally Posted by Haruu
Yah, I just realized every single pool power attack does higher DPS than any given attack from stone. Heck Stone spears is only like 1.5 DPS higher than Brawl. It makes me sad.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
By DPS you obviously mean damage over recharge. And longer recharge attacks always have lower damage over recharge than faster ones. It's to make up for the higher recharge doing more damage up front.
When it comes to damage over animation time, though, nothing beats Seismic Smash. Also, don't forget Dominators naturally do more damage with melee attacks. So ranged attacks would get a disadvantage compared to the Pool attacks. |
Flurry isn't a cone, it just uses the same 'thousand-hands' animation as shadow maul/sands of mu.
It's a bummer to see dissapointment about the set. I have leveled my plant/earth dom to 15 on test, and so far i like the feel of it. I enjoy the ***SMASH*** with each attack, and the pairing is nicely thematic. I do like the knockup from stone spears.
I don't feel like /earth is providing my play experience with anything special other than that. Most of my play experience giggles is coming from running on 0/+2, and letting seeds of confusion do most of the work for me (plant is a new set to me). It's great to have an aoe that early, though /thorns or /ice could provide me that, as well.
I still plan on making one on live, and i expect that the long duration and mob-clumping action of Seeds will synergize well with pots/tremor/fissure. I wouldn't mind either a 10-sec recharge Hurl, or the ranged attacks put on the melee dmg table.
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Originally Posted by Telperion
Flurry isn't a cone, it just uses the same 'thousand-hands' animation as shadow maul/sands of mu.
It's a bummer to see dissapointment about the set. I have leveled my plant/earth dom to 15 on test, and so far i like the feel of it. I enjoy the ***SMASH*** with each attack, and the pairing is nicely thematic. I do like the knockup from stone spears. I don't feel like /earth is providing my play experience with anything special other than that. Most of my play experience giggles is coming from running on 0/+2, and letting seeds of confusion do most of the work for me (plant is a new set to me). It's great to have an aoe that early, though /thorns or /ice could provide me that, as well. I still plan on making one on live, and i expect that the long duration and mob-clumping action of Seeds will synergize well with pots/tremor/fissure. I wouldn't mind either a 10-sec recharge Hurl, or the ranged attacks put on the melee dmg table. |
Two quick questions:
1. Domination can increase knockback distance, so does this mean that duration Domination, mallet's knockdown becomes knockback?
2. Domination makes Seismic Smash mag 6 hold?
As of now, Domination does not increase anything in earth assault. so kb mag stays the same, and neither fissure's stun nor seismic smash's hold dominates.
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Originally Posted by Haruu
Ill compare 4 similar tiered powers from earth to lets say Elec (a sat for blasters everyone always says is under preforming)
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Originally Posted by Telperion
As of now, Domination does not increase anything in earth assault. so kb mag stays the same, and neither fissure's stun nor seismic smash's hold dominates.
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I don't think the damage on Electric's Blasts (Other than Short Circuit, which should be doing more) are part of why it's viewed as (an) underperforming (blaster set), it's the fact that Electric Blast lacks a tier3 heavy hitter that most other sets have in addition to Electric's secondary effect of end drain being 'All or Nothing' and so seen as useless to any non-dedicated sapper build.
Electric's actual Blasts (teir 1 and 2) are identical to those in other sets with the same recharge.
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Originally Posted by Haruu
(actually when I say DPS i am refuring to damage over (base) recharge+animation time. Its a decent baseline.
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Originally Posted by Wonderslug
It really, really isn't. It privileges fast recharge far out of proportion to reality. By that standard it's trivial to make Energy Punch look like a better power than Energy Transfer, and I mean old Energy Transfer with the 1-second animation. It will almost invariably rank any tier 1 attack as the best in the set. It makes old Flares (with the behemoth animation) come out well ahead of Blaze.
As soon as you have enough powers or enough recharge to come anywhere close to a full attack chain, animation time trumps everything. Geko didn't ever really figure that out, which is one reason the powers system was (and in some ways still is) such a mess. |
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Two quick questions:
1. Domination can increase knockback distance, so does this mean that duration Domination, mallet's knockdown becomes knockback? 2. Domination makes Seismic Smash mag 6 hold? |
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Originally Posted by Wonderslug
It really, really isn't. It privileges fast recharge far out of proportion to reality. By that standard it's trivial to make Energy Punch look like a better power than Energy Transfer, and I mean old Energy Transfer with the 1-second animation.
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But even with a complete chain, DPS (per the entire activation/recharge) really does matter.
the damage per second of cooldown matters because your best attack you want up fastest. It doesn't matter if you have an attack that hits for 500 damage (outher than 500 damage being a great number) if it takes 30 minutes to recharge.
Nukes are a perfect example of this. Many people live by being "rolling nukes" using BU+Aim+nuke, then moving onto the next group after eating a blue or two. They must get the recharge down to less than a minute on all three powers to be viable, which is why you see so many people in the second camp. These people either take the nuke and use it from time to time, or dont take it. Its not worth the crash, nor recharge to become a staple (and I am talking about crash nukes. Nukes like RoA are in a differant league but even with those I know quite a few people that never take tier 9 cause the recharge makes them too situational). I have yet to meet a single person that talks of a standard attack chain that adds in long rec abilities. Its almost always T1,T2,T1,T(3 or 4). This has more to do with when these skills come up, their reliability in being ready, and yes the animation time. If it takes the T1 1 second to animate, and 10 seconds to recharge, for 50 damage, is that better than something that takes .5 sconds to animate, 60 seconds to recharge, and does 110 damage? I personally would say no, at least not in comparason It might be quick, but the added DPS to the chain is low.
Thats how I look at things. A chain is great, a must have. Animation times are important. But if you are waiting a long time (in comparason to what you could be waiting) for the attack to come back, its not worth it. Recharge time is definatly a factor in powerpicks. Then again ive never been a fan of a power that buffs you for 15 seconds, and recharges for over a minute.
But my main issue has to do with pool powers out preforming set powers. I compared to Elec since everyone says on blasters its crap. Didn't stop me from playing one, and I love it, but I needed a baseline, and I knew Fire and Ice are sets that usually preform well.
Too bad I cant find DPS based off Arcana Time. From what I understand it does interesting stuff to DPS calculations (evidently the server works on so many ticks per minute and things only happen on ticks, so short animations suffer alot in DPS based off it.)
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Originally Posted by Haruu
I have yet to meet a single person that talks of a standard attack chain that adds in long rec abilities. Its almost always T1,T2,T1,T(3 or 4).
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You're missing the point a bit here, Haruu. Consider the following scenario:
You have a complete attack chain, and you can attack with no gaps indefinitely (or at least until your end runs out, which isn't important in this comparison). In that case, if you want to calculate the total amount of damage you are doing per second (from *all* your powers - the entire chain) the method is as follows. You add up the damage of each attack in the chain (multiple times if needed in the case of repeated powers), and divide by the total time it takes to deliver that damage. Said total time is just the sum of the activation times.
If you want to increase your overall damage output, you have to either increase the damage dealt, or decrease the amount of time it takes to deal it. Recharge doesn't enter into the equation at all. Once you have a complete attack chain, the only thing that influences overall damage output is the damage and animation times of each attack. Recharge only comes in as a limiting factor on how often you can fit your highest DPA attacks into the chain.
It almost doesn't matter how long a recharge a power has, as long as it doesn't prevent you from building a gapless attack chain. If you have a high DPA power whose recharge is so long that it's only up once in every 10 runs through your attack chain, cycling it in as often as possible will *still* improve your overall damage output.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
I don't think the damage on Electric's Blasts (Other than Short Circuit, which should be doing more) are part of why it's viewed as (an) underperforming (blaster set), it's the fact that Electric Blast lacks a tier3 heavy hitter that most other sets have in addition to Electric's secondary effect of end drain being 'All or Nothing' and so seen as useless to any non-dedicated sapper build.
Electric's actual Blasts (teir 1 and 2) are identical to those in other sets with the same recharge. |
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
You're missing the point a bit here, Haruu. Consider the following scenario:
You have a complete attack chain, and you can attack with no gaps indefinitely (or at least until your end runs out, which isn't important in this comparison). In that case, if you want to calculate the total amount of damage you are doing per second (from *all* your powers - the entire chain) the method is as follows. You add up the damage of each attack in the chain (multiple times if needed in the case of repeated powers), and divide by the total time it takes to deliver that damage. Said total time is just the sum of the activation times. If you want to increase your overall damage output, you have to either increase the damage dealt, or decrease the amount of time it takes to deal it. Recharge doesn't enter into the equation at all. Once you have a complete attack chain, the only thing that influences overall damage output is the damage and animation times of each attack. Recharge only comes in as a limiting factor on how often you can fit your highest DPA attacks into the chain. It almost doesn't matter how long a recharge a power has, as long as it doesn't prevent you from building a gapless attack chain. If you have a high DPA power whose recharge is so long that it's only up once in every 10 runs through your attack chain, cycling it in as often as possible will *still* improve your overall damage output. |
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
If you look at total animation time versus total damage output Voltaic Sentinel does INCREDIBLE DPS (Damage Per Second of casting time). Seriously, the power takes about 3 times as long to animate as Charged Bolts, but has the potential to do like 15 times as much damage. It's a very good power.
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Originally Posted by Haruu
In this case Power 1 has a DPA (and that A is for animation in this case, not Activation) of 60, but a true DPS of 20. It can reliably give you no more than 20 damage per second. That single power CANNOT ever do better than the DPS without enhancing.
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Somebody decided to comment in my rep that my post saying it probably won't out DPS all Defenders was pointless. (Whose brilliant idea was it to have an anonymous comment system that evades the existing comment system?)
Well, I checked. Stone Spears is worse than most Defender level 1 attacks. It's almost identical (in Damage Per Activation time) to Mental Blast, Snap Shot, and Neutrino Bolt (all of which recharge considerably faster than SS). It is considerably worse than all other level 1 Defender blasts. Similarly, Hurl Boulder is amazingly terrible.
Sure the set as a whole will out DPS a Def, by going to melee. At range the Def will own you.
The Def will find it far easier of course to put together an actual seamless attack chain, will be able to do so at range, and will often have buffs or debuffs improving the output of the chain.
The Dom will out DPS the Def...at level 28 when Seismic Smash opens up.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
Sure the set as a whole will out DPS a Def, by going to melee. At range the Def will own you.
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Not that either is exclusively ranged or melee, but they're both balanced so that you can skip Incinerate or the Earth ranged attacks 90% of the time, if you want. Or so it seems is the concept anyway.
Stone Spears, Hurl Boulder and Tremor all throw the edge completely away.
Additionally, the Mallets are not very good compared to other Dom sets melee attacks.
This set seems to have been thrown together from exisiting powers, never properly rebalanced and now is being allowed to exist with Seismic Smash completely carrying the set.
I consider that to place the set firmly in the Unfinished category.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Fire and Earth being exceptions, of course.
Not that either is exclusively ranged or melee, but they're both balanced so that you can skip Incinerate or the Earth ranged attacks 90% of the time, if you want. Or so it seems is the concept anyway. |
