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You mean the comment I made when the power order was announced about having to pl it up to 29 before the set is playable was accurate? |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
That's correct. Defs can probably outdamage most Doms at range Regardless of buffs and debuffs. In other words: even an Empath can outdamage Doms at range.
EDIT: Which, let me clarify, is I think basically fine. I don't really have a problem with that. My issue is that Earth Assault appears to be basically no Fun to play until 28 (this is based on my testing and analysis, not analysis alone). That used to be the case with Psi Assault and it got changed quite a bit. |
Go figure
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The only difference between that and a Brute is Stone Fists. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
For earth feel free to indicate how much recharge is needed to string attacks with the following recharge together:
8, 12, 20 |
I've been saying all along Stone Assault would likely have such long recharge times that you would not be able to utilize it with your usual high recharge slotting strategy. You're not surprising me at all by pointing it out now.
And of course, if you're replacing Incinerate with Flares, we know that's a bad idea.
I didn't say it was a good idea, just possible. More possible, perhaps, than skipping the ranged attacks in Stone. (You don't even have a choice with Stone Spears, you have to take it even if you don't use it)
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a 4 second recharge Stone Fist would make a tremendous difference just as it does for stone melee. I mean it is one of the fastest casting powers in the game after all.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The only difference between that and a Brute is Stone Fists.
I've been saying all along Stone Assault would likely have such long recharge times that you would not be able to utilize it with your usual high recharge slotting strategy. You're not surprising me at all by pointing it out now. And of course, if you're replacing Incinerate with Flares, we know that's a bad idea. I didn't say it was a good idea, just possible. More possible, perhaps, than skipping the ranged attacks in Stone. (You don't even have a choice with Stone Spears, you have to take it even if you don't use it) |
"I've been saying all along Stone Assault would likely have such long recharge times that you would not be able to utilize it with your usual high recharge slotting strategy."
This doesn't make sense. It looks like the ONLY way to play earth assault is with very high recharge. Like 250% recharge (hasten+ 80% slotting+ 100% IO global) so you can get those 8, 12, 20 attacks down to 2.3, 3.4, and 5.7 and so you can spam fissure of course.
Even with one of the most extreme builds possible you'll still be stuck drastically lowering your dps with stone spears or hurl and will probably be better of filling gaps with boxing...
sad as that is.Yes high recharge burns more end, but for a dom perma dom is considerably more end efficienct than high recharge, but non-perma and of course having a ppp end management tool up more often.
IMO the only way to salvage earth assault at this point is to replace stone spear(s) with stone Fist. It would go from very meh (but awesome looking) to pretty awesome all around. Even greatly reducing the cast time on stone spear wouldn't do it, not with the limitations on that particular power.
Just like how NRG needs a fourth ranged attack to support such long base recharges earth assault needs a fourth melee attack to support the long recharges of the mallets+seismic. I'm honestly a bit surprised that something this far off the mark would be turned out this far down the road and after soooooo many swings at making doms good. Ya ya, we all love the devs, but making a decent assault set isn't rocket science and very similar mistakes are being made with earth as were made with psy except earth isn't redeemed by a miracle power.
I realize no dom has a melee attack as a teir 1. No dom assault set has a damage aura or a TAoE, or a mag 4 hold, so meh just replace spear(s) with Fist please... I really want to like earth assault.
I'd have to disargee that Stone Assault is no fun. I think it's loads of fun. That's not to say that it couldn't use improvement, just that fun is a subjective term, and not the best thing to use as a metric.
As a casual(ish) gamer I love the feel of Stone regardless of it's numerical performance issues, and will play it even if released as is.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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True. I suspect it was left out to give Earth this "slower" feel, though. That, and to keep with a common theme with the mallet attacks. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
a 4 second recharge Stone Fist would make a tremendous difference just as it does for stone melee. I mean it is one of the fastest casting powers in the game after all.
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"I've been saying all along Stone Assault would likely have such long recharge times that you would not be able to utilize it with your usual high recharge slotting strategy." This doesn't make sense. It looks like the ONLY way to play earth assault is with very high recharge. Like 250% recharge (hasten+ 80% slotting+ 100% IO global) so you can get those 8, 12, 20 attacks down to 2.3, 3.4, and 5.7 and so you can spam fissure of course. |
Personally, I would use Air Superiority to fill out the chain and make some faster attacks available. There aren't any 4 second ranged attacks in the pool to help fill out chains, but again, that seems to be the design criteria here. This is a melee centric set. I wouldn't worry about a pause or two, that does not bother me, and I don't have the issues with it you obviously have. I'm doing adequate burst damage to finish off my foes quickly, I could be doing more with an Aim or Build Up, but unfortunately there is no such option in the set.
Of course, that's still not as good as what Energy or Fire would be capable of, but I'm really not saying that. I wouldn't go out of my way to increase its recharge, though, any more than I would go out of my way to increase recharge on Broadsword, or Battle Axe. Those are slow, ponderous sets, I've played them. It seems like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole is doomed to failure from the start.
I'll also add that while you can go to the Power Pool for Air Superiority or Boxing, you can't go to the Power Pool for a ranged attack. So if Stone Fist replaced Stone Spears, those who wanted two ranged attacks would not have that option. I've said the same thing in regards to those who wanted a melee attack in place of the ranged attacks on Masterminds. This is not to say it isn't a good idea, it's just it would probably be better to either trim some time off Stone Spears' animation, or bump it and Hurl to a 6/10 second scale. That would improve the ranged damage AND you could still use Air Superiority.
I get the points about DPA (damage per second of activation, or casting, time) being so important. That makes perfect sense, given that activation time is a crucial resource for any character. I also get that this is a straightforward effort to provide feedback about a set that still has possibilities for being changed, before being released to live (and the opportunity to provide constructive feedback is part of the value of these forums to the devs and the players). And, if the melee DPA is below average on a melee-oriented set over the long run, or even if it takes 29 levels to get melee damage to a better than average level, that would be disappointing and hopefully that will be fixed.
The part I'm not following is why we need a seamless attack chain for a dominator. I can see the utility of that for blasters, scrappers, tankers, brutes, and even stalkers that need to scrap it out from time to time. But, the case for building a seamless attack chain on a character likely to be frequently using controls, solo or teamed, doesn't seem quite as pressing to me. Also, we always have a single target ranged attack that immobilizes foes in our primaries that can be taken and slotted up, if we feel the need for another fast activating, fast recharging attack.
I'd hate to see every assault set become a minor variation almost every other assault set, especially after we get the freedom to re-color our powers. Having earth be a melee-oriented, relatively ponderous, hard-hitting set makes sense thematically and its nice to have a different look and feel to an assault set.
Vive la Difference.
There are enemies we can't mez. Those enemies we have to beat down as fast as possible. Gaps in our attack chains make that more difficult.
I think that's the simplest reason why we want to be able to create seamless attack chains.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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This. Plus there are times you don't need to spam control ie in a team with buffs/debuffs or just against most minions where seismic smash, the knocks of the mallets, fissure, or w/e provides enough mitigation and you just want to beat things down with maximum efficiency.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
There are enemies we can't mez. Those enemies we have to beat down as fast as possible. Gaps in our attack chains make that more difficult.
I think that's the simplest reason why we want to be able to create seamless attack chains. |
Most of my time playing doms even if control is needed it is a single aoe control and then you just go into attack mode. Rarely do I have to sit there supplementing st controls into my chains to the point where it would excuse massive gaps.
[QUOTE=Jade_Dragon;2210085]True. I suspect it was left out to give Earth this "slower" feel, though. That, and to keep with a common theme with the mallet attacks. [quote]
Not too familiar with seismic smash? If by slower you mean standing around doing nothing then slower was achieved
As for the rest of what you said I'll just disagree. Earth was touted as a melee centric "tank-ish" assault set. Range be damned. Unfortunately it kinda puts out lousy melee numbers too.
Earth is pretty fun though, it looks really pretty and with lots of screen shake it feels very powerful. I just wish it was powerful as I was banking so much on earth assault being good.
*how is it different than old elec assault that was actually good with such long recharge on melee attacks? Simple. Elec's ranged attacks aren't the worst in the game and bu > pb for the purpose of a "burst/slow" set.
If I end up rolling earth it will probably be mind or grav for lev/lift to fill in the melee chain gaps with a decent power and just remove stone spear from my tray and never take hurl.
Edit: on a brighter note domination now boosts seismic smash and fissure, so that is pretty good. Makes me wonder about the original changes to total focus though because iirc dom version was the first to drop down to mag 3 due to concerns of a mag 8 w/ domination one shot mezzing EB's or something like that.
Earth and Elec do similar DPS in their single target chains...in a manner of speaking.
For Earth to come close to Elec, it must have Seismic Smash which unlocks at 28.
However, Earth is then close to Elec...without BU, but Elec has it's whole chain at 10 and BU at 16.
I can't think of a good reason to play the set other than liking the look of it or having a concept that it perfectly fits.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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iirc it was a pvp change before mez protection was changed to resistance in pvp. since it's all resistance now, does mag even matter in pvp?
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Edit: on a brighter note domination now boosts seismic smash and fissure, so that is pretty good. Makes me wonder about the original changes to total focus though because iirc dom version was the first to drop down to mag 3 due to concerns of a mag 8 w/ domination one shot mezzing EB's or something like that.
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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Yes, that's exactly what I meant. As fast animating as Seismic Smash is, without a huge amount of recharge it will not be up again fast enough to be considered a "fast" attack. Since your faster recharge attacks are slower animating, there is a more ponderous feel to the set.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Not too familiar with seismic smash? If by slower you mean standing around doing nothing then slower was achieved
As for the rest of what you said I'll just disagree. Earth was touted as a melee centric "tank-ish" assault set. Range be damned. Unfortunately it kinda puts out lousy melee numbers too. |
I suspect this is what was meant by "tankish", despite the way some hopefuls ran with the idea of "Oh, 'tank' means defense, so that means we're getting Earth's Embrace". Sunstorm I think was referring more to the fact that the older Tanker sets tend to be slow animating and long recharge, giving them a more "brute force" feel, while Scrapper sets tended to be the ones that were fast with solid attack chains. Of course, only Sunstorm can say if that's what he actually meant...
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| Earth is pretty fun though, it looks really pretty and with lots of screen shake it feels very powerful. I just wish it was powerful as I was banking so much on earth assault being good. |
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| *how is it different than old elec assault that was actually good with such long recharge on melee attacks? Simple. Elec's ranged attacks aren't the worst in the game and bu > pb for the purpose of a "burst/slow" set. |
In fact, it's probably intentional that the sets without an Aim/Build Up tend to be longer recharge now, giving them more damage. Of course, I understand the idea of wanting to have steady DPS, and foes that you can't mez are an issue, although most foes CAN be mezzed. However, if given the choice between doing 30 points of damage 1 second apart for three seconds, or doing 90 points of damage, but not doing any more damage for three seconds, the advantage is with the 90 points of damage. If you can kill the foe immediately, instead of waiting three seconds and enduring damage for that time, you have taken less damage, for dealing the same amount.
In other words, burst damage kills mezzers faster than low, steady DPS. The problem is, of course, the devs realize this, and so if you replace a 30 point attack with a 1 second recharge with a 90 second attack, it won't take 3 seconds to recharge. It will take more like 5 or 6. There are diminishing returns, which is why the overall DPS of a slower recharge set like Earth or Energy is lower.
Of course, Aim/Build Up gives you the same burst potential as a high burst damage attack, just you boost your lower damage attacks over a short period. I've always felt that the Aim/Build Up gave the real advantage in damage dealing, that's why my two main Doms are Fire and Electric. Power Boost is more of a defensive and damage mitigation bonus.
Oops looks like I jumped the gun.
Yes - Seismic and Fissure are now boosted by domination as indicated by the patch notes
Howerver - contrary to EVERY other power affected by domination it does not double the mag, but rather just adds mag 1. So domination Seismic is mag 5. Domination Fissure is 33% mag 2 plus 33% mag 1.
Seismic is w/e the power is just amazing without dom so nbd, but fissure is so bad compared to the troller version it really makes me sad. So bad. So sad.
Thanks for the bone, just turns out it is a old chicken bone that is now stuck in my throat rather than a tasty steak bone.
Hm, mag of Seismic Smash got dropped from 4 to 3 (Dom version only) on test with today's patch, wonder if Domination's working properly on it now.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Oy! I didn't even notice that it said mag 3 for the base of SS.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Hm, mag of Seismic Smash got dropped from 4 to 3 (Dom version only) on test with today's patch, wonder if Domination's working properly on it now.
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So it is mag 3 and then domination adds mag 1.
Base Mag 3 = 11.92 sec (lvl 50)
Dom Mag 1 = 17.88 sec (lvl 50)
*just checked on test
Somebody better send a basket to get this rectified cause that is pretty crappy.
Also Stone melee users better get ready for their SS to get dropped to mag 3. I mean if the dominator change to total focus that ushered in what was to come for everyone else is any indication.
And just so everyone is clear controller Seismic is Mag 4 (can't recall it every doing "overpower" for an additional mag 1, but maybe). But at any rate if there is no issue for blueside to have a mag 4 attack on a control based AT, then what is the problem if Doms do too?
I'm currently playing around with a grav/earth on test and I'm having a "goofy smile" kind of fun playing her. I think of my grav/earth as my "brutinator", with mobs flying up and down and with all the screen shakes.
With power boost and all the knockdown in earth assault, not to mention seismic smash, it feels OK to go a little lighter on controls in the primary. I've also set up the colors to "dark" for both sets, with lava as the choice for earth assault. Singularity is set up to look like a magical dust thingamabob (I think that's the technical term), so it fits with fairly well with the earthy feel to the color scheme.
Based on others' descriptions of the set, I expected a different feel to earth assault, and I've been happy to confirm that now that I'm playing it.
EDIT: Which, let me clarify, is I think basically fine. I don't really have a problem with that. My issue is that Earth Assault appears to be basically no Fun to play until 28 (this is based on my testing and analysis, not analysis alone). That used to be the case with Psi Assault and it got changed quite a bit.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.