Farming & PL'ing - Designed by Devs or Unintentional By-Product
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-08-25 06:32 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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A joke should not be taken as gospel, even if it came from a redname. I don't know what defines a casual gamer in CoH. Is it the amount of time a player spends on their one toon? Is it the amount of time they spend across toons? Is it the amount of content they experience? Is it the amount of accounts they have? Or is it their interest in the game?|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
By BaB's basically posting a joke about Casual Players purling out their warshades, I think it's safe to assume that the devs did not intend something ULTRA RARE to be for casual players. I tend to take the devs at what they post and not some lala land fantasy.
Other's MMV |
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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This. I remember people farming the demons spawning from portals for influence and SOs somewhere around Issue 2. I remember all the players gathered outside of Portal Corps looking for people to PL them since... well, since Issue 1, I guess. Shortly after they added Portal Corps, at least. I remember the first level 50 in my first SG who offered to SK and PL people.|
Originally Posted by Ad Astra
I tink you start from the flawed position that farming and PL'ing were not truly present in the early years of the game.
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None of this is new. People who are motivated to get to the end quickly have always existed in this game and others. As long as that's their motivation, they're going to find a way and they're going to find it before you can get to level 10.
These things are "by-produts" of gaming and, going broader, human nature. Some people are motivated to get to the top as fast as possible or have the most stuff. That's always going to happen, whether it be video games or your place of work. It has very little to do with the actual game and everything to do with the desires of the individuals.
~Missi
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Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
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While additional "loot" did increase the number of players doing it, it wasn't something that you had to "seek out" to see before. Long before recipes there were loads of people doing it. I remember my Empath and level 46 characters getting countless tells asking to SK people in the Chimera mission, the Wolf mission, and the Dreck mission, etc etc. Every one fo those missions was changed long before recipes and other loot entered the game. How can you say farming "didn't exist (in any great way)" when we have a laundry list of missions that were altered just to prevent it? People did it for SOs and influence. People PL'd for levels. All before what we think of as "loot" entered the game.|
Originally Posted by Baby_Phoenix
But has you read a few letters on you would have noticed the brackets containing further information.
I did not say it did not exist, the intimation was that it was not in as greater prevalence as it is not, or certainly not as noticeable as is it now unless you knew where to seek it out. I will do my homework as soon as you learn to read  |
It doesn't matter what the "stuff" is, if there's stuff to be had, there are always people who focus more on that than on anything else. That stuff can be badges, enhancements, influence, etc. Remember when Katie Hannon gave out one SO each time Mary was defeated? That was also way before recipes.
Don't insult the person who said you need to do your homework. You didn't and we're calling you on it because it shows.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
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But I saw requests for farm teams about as often in Issue 2 and I do now.|
Originally Posted by Baby_Phoenix
But has you read a few letters on you would have noticed the brackets containing further information.
I did not say it did not exist, the intimation was that it was not in as greater prevalence as it is not, or certainly not as noticeable as is it now unless you knew where to seek it out. I will do my homework as soon as you learn to read |
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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In this case, take it as gospel because top tier loot isn't intended for anyone who won't put in the necessary effort to earn it.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
A joke should not be taken as gospel, even if it came from a redname.
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The game is forgiving enough that literally anyone can get the best stuff it they want, but they need to make the effort.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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further information is useless when your original point is completely wrong.
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Originally Posted by Baby_Phoenix
But has you read a few letters on you would have noticed the brackets containing further information.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Ad Astra nailed it in the first reply, like a sniper blowing someone's head off the moment he sticks it up out of cover.
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*pop*|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Ad Astra nailed it in the first reply, like a sniper blowing someone's head off the moment he sticks it up out of cover.
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Headshot.
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Putting in the effort is one thing, but to say it is not intended for casual gamers is another. If they were not intended for casual gamers a definition of "casual gamer" would be made clear and systems would be in place to prevent them from either obtaining them or slotting them. Much like exploits (exploiters) have been defined and measures have been taken to curb them.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
In this case, take it as gospel because top tier loot isn't intended for anyone who won't put in the necessary effort to earn it.
The game is forgiving enough that literally anyone can get the best stuff it they want, but they need to make the effort. |
A person can sign up to CoX today, and put in no more effort than purchasing influence/infamy and still obtain ultra rare loot.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Wrong already. Probably not much point in reading the rest. Farming and PL'ing were ALWAYS here. They just weren't so 'in your face'.|
Originally Posted by Baby_Phoenix
Farming didn't exist (in any great way) until IOs and Auction House appeared.
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And farming and PL'ing didn't have to be 'designed in'. The very nature of games of this sort make these things POSSIBLE. If it's possible, people will do it.
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| Therefore this could have been prevented or the perceived need lessened in a few ways which on the surface seem simple enough. Introduce a price cap in AH/BM. |
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The Mentor Project
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Top tier loot/gear/whatever is BY DEFINITION intended for the more hardcore players of whatever game is under discussion.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Putting in the effort is one thing, but to say it is not intended for casual gamers is another.
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Wake up.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I normally don't like it when people quote multiple paragraphs just to say "I agree" but that's exactly what I'm going here. |
Originally Posted by Lakanna
The devs dont' want people to PL. The quick ways to do it have gotten nerfed one by one, and the new super-sidekick system pretty much eliminates the last remaining loophole. They feel so strongly about PLing that they have banned accounts following the AE debacle, and the only metric they announced publicly was "time to 50." There may or may not have been other factors, but that was the only one they came out and said they were looking at.
Farming is another matter. They seem to regard it as something they can at least tolerate. They've nerfed the most outrageous farming maps and tactics (for example, giving all critters ranged attacks) but have never come down with excessive force for simply farming. I believe that they see farming as "something some people enjoy" and not as a deadly sin. PLing destabilizes the playerbase. People hit 50, wander around bored or get into groups where they have no idea what they're doing. All the complaint threads about the bAEbies should have been a sign that people were getting PL'd, but never learned to play. People like that are unlikely to stick around long: they "won" and then they get bored and leave. Farmers don't much affect the playerbase directly, except that the best farmers are those with a lot of experience and playtime under their belts: the people who have already shown that they are going to stick around and keep paying the monthly fee. Farmers incidently create wealth, both INF and the things to spend them on, which acts as a stabilizing force for the markets. The new difficulty slider changes seem to be aimed at helping farmers do exactly what they want; play their maps without bothering anyone else. Seriously, getting fillers for a map is annoying for the farmer, annoying for some of the people asked to fill, and in general didn't help anyone. The new difficulty sliders eliminate the last real problem people had with farmers: the tells for fillers. |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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A system is in place. The items have a low drop rate. This means casual gamers must compete with hardcore gamers for a small pool of available items. That pretty much prevents them from obtaining the items, unless they get lucky and get one as a drop.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Putting in the effort is one thing, but to say it is not intended for casual gamers is another. If they were not intended for casual gamers a definition of "casual gamer" would be made clear and systems would be in place to prevent them from either obtaining them or slotting them. Much like exploits (exploiters) have been defined and measures have been taken to curb them.
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| A person can sign up to CoX today, and put in no more effort than purchasing influence/infamy and still obtain ultra rare loot. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Obviously you have a different definition of farming than some people. I personally define it as performing the same activity over and over for the rewards. Judging from some dev statements, this seems to be their definition as well. Whether these rewards are drops, inf, badges or XP, is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
PL'ing is the efficient pursuit of XP.
Farming is the efficient pursuit of drops. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I'm defining the root of the behavior, not describing what the flowers look like.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Obviously you have a different definition of farming than some people. I personally define it as performing the same activity over and over for the rewards.
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Repeating content is efficient, that's why farmers do it.
If it was more efficient to behave some other way, they'd do that instead.
The "repeating content, as long as you're not enjoying it!" hairball the devs coughed up a while back was not a useful addition to the discussion.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I've never actually had to farm for those badges on any character (except for my main whenever badges were first released). Just running missions, almost all of my characters have gotten those two badges by the time they hit their mid 30s. Neither of those require farming.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
For example, to get the Atlas Medallion accolade you need 200 vampyri and 200 warwolves. If you do the right missions in the 25-29 level range on large teams you can get the vampyri relatively easy (I'm not sure about the warwolves -- you might get that one by doing the Hess TF). But unless you intentionally go after those missions you will almost certainly outlevel them before getting those badges. That means you'll have to do those missions in Ouroboros or farm in Striga (which is what I usually wind up doing).
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Honestly, there are very few defeat badges that I can think of that actually require and real degree of farming. Zookeeper (because of the huge numbers of required Rikti Monkeys), Privateer (because Sky Skiffs are purposefully rare in missions), and a few others mostly because the enemies only appear in a small level range while running normal missions or because the enemies don't really appear in missions much. Farming is, of course, the more time efficient method of acquiring them, but it's by no means impossible to get them while leveling and running Task Forces.
As to the original topic, keep in mind that Castle has actually said that the developer definition of farming is repeatedly running the same content for any reason other than pure fun. You can farm for experience, farm for influence, farm for drops, farm for badges, or farm for merits. All that it requires is that you repeat the same mission for any reason other than that you simply enjoy running that exact same mission because it's fun (re: you would do it even if the rewards were better elsewhere).
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Which is worthless.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
As to the original topic, keep in mind that Castle has actually said that the developer definition of farming is repeatedly running the same content for any reason other than pure fun.
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I run DA for pure fun.
But I am absolutely farming.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
PL'ing is the efficient pursuit of XP.
Farming is the efficient pursuit of drops. |
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Obviously you have a different definition of farming than some people. I personally define it as performing the same activity over and over for the rewards. Judging from some dev statements, this seems to be their definition as well. Whether these rewards are drops, inf, badges or XP, is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I'm defining the root of the behavior, not describing what the flowers look like.
Repeating content is efficient, that's why farmers do it. If it was more efficient to behave some other way, they'd do that instead. |
If only we could motivate them to take over the goverment and run it as efficiently... It'd be like those Sprint ads about firemen running things.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Top tier loot/gear/whatever is BY DEFINITION intended for the more hardcore players of whatever game is under discussion.
Wake up. |
Wake up? Your condescending elitist gamer attitude is getting real old real quick.
What is a hardcore gamer? What is a casual gamer? is that based on the time spent playing? Is it based on their love for that particular game?
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
A system is in place. The items have a low drop rate. This means casual gamers must compete with hardcore gamers for a small pool of available items. That pretty much prevents them from obtaining the items, unless they get lucky and get one as a drop.
And if they get caught they can have their brand new account with all their paid-for inf banned. |
Unless I missed something there are no measures to prevent people from purchasing in game funds. There are only measures in place to ban those that spam to sell.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Your obtuseness was old before it got off the boat.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Wake up? Your condescending elitist gamer attitude is getting real old real quick.
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"waaaah casual players can't get the best stuff!"
Give me a break.
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| What is a hardcore gamer? |
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| What is a casual gamer? |
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| is that based on the time spent playing? Is it based on their love for that particular game? |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Whether the buyers are punished or not (and they should be, IMO) the purchasing of inf from RMT companies is flat out a violation of the EULA and most certainly not intended by the devs.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Unless I missed something there are no measures to prevent people from purchasing in game funds. There are only measures in place to ban those that spam to sell.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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In this context the difference between casual and hardcore is a factor of the time/effort spent. It is not only a matter of time, but the effort put forth as well. For example, a good marketeer may not spend a lot of time using the market once they have identified niches and have a good understanding of how the system works. But they are definitely putting forth the effort to reap their rewards from that activity. The casual player is much less likely to spend the time or effort needed to excel at that activity, therefore they will never make as much influence off the market, as the player who does invest that time/effort. And they have no basis for coming on here and posting a whiny rant complaining that influence is too hard to make because Joe Marketeer has 3 billion inf and they only have 3 million.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
What is a hardcore gamer? What is a casual gamer? is that based on the time spent playing? Is it based on their love for that particular game?
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| Wake up? Your condescending elitist gamer attitude is getting real old real quick. |
The same concepts tend to hold true in other game formats as well. The 'best' items are rare and not easy to obtain. If you are not familiar with the term 'Monty Haul Campaign', I suggest you look it up.
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Would you still do it if the rewards were significantly better elsewhere, by whatever your definition of rewards is?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Which is worthless.
I run DA for pure fun. But I am absolutely farming. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
You also seem to be confused as to what exactly is generated by farming. Your post reads as if all these items magically appear in the game for sale on their own, and that farming is simply a way of making the inf to buy these items. Farming is what generates most of these items that are put up for sale to begin with.