Not a bad idea at all.
My idea was to allow access to AE from several zones by people on the same team, just like people on the same team can enter door missions from alternate versions of the same zone. And make a global channel specifically for finding AE teams, so people in the channel can see it from whatever zone they're in. This way not everyone participating in AE has to be in the same zone spamming broadcast.
Your idea may be better though, because people won't stop spamming broadcast, no matter what, and it would keep AE broadcast spam hidden from the tender eyes of CoX newbies, at least until they intend to seek it out. This way not all new people would get sucked into AE first thing, thinking it is the entire game. Of course, this is also why the AE farmers will be against your idea.
Edit: As for putting it in Pocket D, well, I'll let the people who frequent Pocket D tell you why it shouldn't go there.
It is a bad idea, because people do use AE for things other than farming. Those people who use it to create and play arcs don't want to deal with farmer spam and power lag any more than the general population of Atlas and Cap do. Of course if each AE had its own zone, I'd be all for that.
There is already a serverwide AE channel. It was added in i15. People tend to ignore it and continue to spam Atlas and Cap broadcast.
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Quote:
Both of these could be implemented without removing AE to another zone.|
Originally Posted by Gloxina
This would place all the players wishing to partake in one locale. This would also remove the broadcasts for level 48 teams in Atlas Park.
I was attempting to introduce a friend to CoH and the amount of lag generated by AE and the constant chatter from AE was overwelming. |
Point 1 could be addressed by limiting zone broadcasts originating in AE to AE. If you want to shout at the zone, you'll have to go outside.
Point 2 could be addressed by optimization. As you approach an AE building you'll note that at a certain point (round about 100 yards) you suddenly get hit by a wave of lag. This is the data describing the characters that are inside the AE building.
The optimization would consist of not sending that data to you unless you actually enter the building. People inside the building would still need to get the data about the people outside.
Other indoor locations (such as stores) already work this way, sort of, because those locations are actually a hundred or more yards below the surface. AE is special because you can look out the window and see what's going on. But when you're on the outside you can't see anything that's inside. So that would make the optimization possible. I'm not implying this would be easy, just that it would be a reasonable compromise solution.
Point 2 could also be addressed by moving AE to the northeast corner of Atlas Park, somewhere more than 150 yards or so away from the trainer, Wentworth's, and other locations frequented by lots of players. Walking an extra 100 yards shouldn't be too much of a burden.
A single AE location would be bad because it would create a total mob scene for everyone who wants to use it. Most of the AE buildings in other zones are empty, and is where you'll find the people who use AE in the way the devs hoped it would be used.
I'm hoping that the changes in I16 will decrease the desire for everyone to PL and farm in AE, and this will become a moot point.
Heck, put AE in Oroborous - it would eliminate the 25 and under PLing AND make Orob something more than a glorified train depot. You could put it on one of the many floating islands there....
Or, if the Dev's REALLY wanted to get to people, remove all the AE buildings and put one floating next to the truck in Pocket D. Or maybe just have a large mob of Sappers spawn to the location of someone spam broadcasting for farms...
Seriously, AE can and is being abused alot. TBA though, I haven't had trouble getting PUGs outside of Atlas and Cap AE. Visting other AEs is not worth it if you are looking for AE teams, though I am surprised that theres NOONE in the RWZ AE (think about it: AE missions with Heroes AND Villains?). Part of the fun for Xmas Pocket D missions is teaming up with the 'other side'.
FNORD
The problem is the Farmers and the Power Levelers.
If there was zero xp earned in AE and no item drops but only tickets earned then AE would be as it was intended. As long as you can PL and earn millins in inf the farmers will rule.
Right now the bottom is dropping out of the inf market if the spam is any indication you can get 100 mil inf for $3.27 with delivery in less that 10 mins and an unlimited supply.
I bet the Farmers cant thank the Devs enough for AE.
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Originally Posted by Gloxina
The problem is the Farmers and the Power Levelers.
If there was zero xp earned in AE and no item drops but only tickets earned then AE would be as it was intended. As long as you can PL and earn millins in inf the farmers will rule. Right now the bottom is dropping out of the inf market if the spam is any indication you can get 100 mil inf for $3.27 with delivery in less that 10 mins and an unlimited supply. I bet the Farmers cant thank the Devs enough for AE. |
I see nothing wrong with farmers and power levelers. The problem is people trying to stop other people from playing a game the way they want to. XP will never be removed from AE, you can cry till your blue in the face that you want it removed, but it will never happened. They spent thousands (maybe more) of dollars putting out a new box set to advertise AE as an alternate leveling system to regular content. They would lose all that advertising money if the changed it.
You are associating farming and powerleveling to gold farming, and they are not the same. A casual player can powerlevel or farm if they want to, and it doesn't make them a gold farmer.
As for making AE it's own zone, it's been suggested, and it probably won't happen. People will just exit the door to whatever zone is the most active (Atlas and PI) and ask for members for an AE farm/team. It may spread the calls for AE teams to PI and reduce the broadcasts in Atlas a little but it won't effect it much.
Enter the AE building while your in Atlas, and look out the windows. What do you see? Now go to Steel Canyon and look out the windows. Then Talos. You see the zone. That would have to be altered significantly if AE were made into it's own zone. My guess is this will stay the way it is. Even removing AE from Atlas or Mercy Island would put a hinderance on "Leveling from 1 to 50 on an alternate system".
Mercy Island isn't a problem and I don't care about Atlas Park since I never go there. It's Cap. Villains HAVE to be in that zone in the teens, the AE building is in a frequently used part of the zone (three contacts, a trainer, the Fateweaver and two stores, plus the base beacon and Ouro drop off point) and the lag is atrocious as soon as you go anywhere near it, especially on Freedom.
Yeah, looking out the windows is all neat and stuff for about ten seconds. It is a lot less neat for all the time you spend lagging every time you go near a populated AE building.
Maybe they just need to drop the number of players needed to spawn a second instance of a zone. That would solve a lot of the problem, as people who don't want to deal with spam and lag can just go to Cap or Atlas 2.
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Quote:
Sorry, no. MA is intended to be a leveling alternative from 1 to 50. Obviously, it can't be that without XP. Thus, if XP were removed, it would not "be as it was intended".|
Originally Posted by Gloxina
If there was zero xp earned in AE and no item drops but only tickets earned then AE would be as it was intended.
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It's amazing to me how often this point has had to be reiterated.
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| As long as you can PL and earn millins in inf the farmers will rule. |
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| I bet the Farmers cant thank the Devs enough for AE. |
Also, power-leveling, while not particularly cared for by the developers, is not a problem in and of itself. It becomes a problem, by the judgment of the developers, when the practice gets out of hand and becomes too wide-spread.
At that point, they take steps to address it.
I16 boasts changes that could impact both farming and power-leveling behaviors significantly.
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Quote:
Yes, yes, yes.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Maybe they just need to drop the number of players needed to spawn a second instance of a zone. That would solve a lot of the problem, as people who don't want to deal with spam and lag can just go to Cap or Atlas 2.
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If I ever have to go to Atlas (I generally avoid it whenever possible), I always go to Atlas 2 if that's an option. It spawns fairly often, but that's on Virtue. I imagine other servers don't see second instances as frequently. And I rarely see a Cap 2.
So... yes. Lower the numbers needed. I'm all for that.
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Can we please not devolve this into another farmers/content debate? Me, I find the PL team spam obnoxious, but sheesh.
I agree with the issue in Cap. Blueside has a lot more options on where you can go at the appropriate level and Steel Canyon (the reasonable analog on blueside) has the AE building in the middle of the zone (away from WW & the university).
Then again, Cap has ALWAYS been lag central (being the most common place to use the BM and crafting stations) - but AE has compounded the issue. Redside might have it worse due to the compressed zone sizes. I know it's sort of troublesome and completley unlikely to happen, but they could move the building out toward the boardwalk. Fewer people out there, and its still within spitting distance of an Arbiter (the one right next to the PO ferry - I think a lot of ppl forget he's there).
While I think lowering the numbers for a duplicate instance of the zone is a good idea, I think they could limit it to the known high-pop zones (Atlas and Cap) instead of doing a blanket drop.
Other QoL suggestions? Turn off Broadcast in your chat box. Blessed silence...
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Moving the building to the boardwalk would put the lagfest right at the ferry from Port Oakes....which is how you get to Cap for the first time. It would also put it right near the tailor and the brokers. Distance from a trainer is irrelevant IMO, putting the building right near one is really only beneficial to people who are levelling up every five minutes (ie the exact behavior the devs want to discourage).
Limiting the spawning of a second instance to known high-population zones is problematic in that those are high-pop zones RIGHT NOW. Player behavior is not static. Who knows, with i16 PI and Grandville might become high-population zones again. I am not proposing limiting the maximum number of players who can be in a zone, just the minimum needed to spawn a second instance. Limiting the maximum as well would be counter-productive, since swarms of people would be forced to use the second instance.
Turning off Broadcast (or simply ignoring it) takes care of spam, but does not help lag.
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Quote:
It also isn't much of a solution for people who utilize it as one of their primary (only) team-building tools.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Turning off Broadcast (or simply ignoring it) takes care of spam, but does not help lag.
|
Which is why I've often suggested alternatives.
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You may already have de facto "dedicated" AE zones: Blueside, it is in AP. Redside, it appears to be in Cap. (I can only speak from experience blueside on Freedom and redside on Pinnacle.)
What makes AP so desirable is that so many new toons don't want to do the same old missions or sewer teams to level up in the beginning. Cap appears desirable because the arbitor is so closeby, as is the Black Market.
As for farms: I used to complain about them but I was seriously ignorant about what they have to offer. Lately, I have played on several farm teams. The level of challenge and the fast paced action is incredible! And some of the mobs are tremendous fun both in concept and in execution. (I never thought that I would say this!)
The biggest problem I see with farms is that I'm not really into powerleveling - either for myself or others, and sometimes I level up too fast. Also, it does irritate me when I learn that a team "leader" who I think is level 47 is actually level 1 or 2 and has little power to help in a fight regardless of what he's been bumped up to. On the other hand, I'm often able to team up with folks who are basically my level - and when that happens its really great fun!
Also, while AE teams do the most inviting to groups (I'm not much of a recruiter) ... the other day, I was invited to a regular team on Pinnacle and was more than happy to leave AE to join it. I will be happier still when issue 16 hits and I won't have to worry anymore about being out of the sight of the person sk-ing me. I get killed SO many times that way!
Great idea OP, and I'll go one step further. Leave the AE buildings where they are, but make the inside of the AE buildings into it's own CoOperative zone. They have to open up a few more floors in the building to accomdate everyone, but basicly when anyone entered the doors to an AE building in any zone, they would get a load screen and actually enter a new "zone" while inside. It would be just like entering the RWZ, but the entire zone would be inside the AE building.
They could also ALWAYS have an AE 1, and an AE 2. That way zone 1 would likely become the "farmer" zone and zone two would just be for overflow and folks who aren't farming.
Quote:
Actually the Devs do have a problem with farming. Why would they will take actions against you if you get caught buying a pl or inf, if farming were ok with them.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I see nothing wrong with farmers and power levelers. The problem is people trying to stop other people from playing a game the way they want to.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Folonius
Enter the AE building while your in Atlas, and look out the windows. What do you see? Now go to Steel Canyon and look out the windows. Then Talos. You see the zone. That would have to be altered significantly if AE were made into it's own zone. My guess is this will stay the way it is.
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AE may be an alternate means of playing the game but it makes it more out to be an arcade game and trying to get the high score than anything else.
Quote:
Many things turned out to be what was not initially intended. I believe an famous author one said "good intentions line the stairway to hell". Firts and foremost CoX is a RPG, Role Playing Game. not an arcade where you see how high you can score. how much role playing can be had just running the same mission over and over. not much charater development can come from that. I have found several high level characters that did not know where basic points were, like Striga Isle. I have actually brought farmers along in a mission who whined that it was going to be boring and they had the time of their life. Even stating that "This is not boring like my friends said it was this is fun." And this was even with a few deaths. An almost instant res by our healer might have helped somewhat. but the over all reation was one that the "real" game was more entertaining than AE.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
Sorry, no. MA is intended to be a leveling alternative from 1 to 50. Obviously, it can't be that without XP. Thus, if XP were removed, it would not "be as it was intended".
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
I16 boasts changes that could impact both farming and power-leveling behaviors significantly.
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Quote:
There is a huge difference between people violating the EULA by selling in-game currency for real money, and people farming inf for their personal use.|
Originally Posted by Gloxina
Actually the Devs do have a problem with farming. Why would they will take actions against you if you get caught buying a pl or inf, if farming were ok with them.
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Buying a PL, again, is ok as long as you're paying with in-game items and not real money.
While the devs may take steps to attempt to curb PLing and farming, unless you're taking advantage of an exploit you are not technically in violation of the EULA by doing it. So people will continue to do it, and continue to get away with it. The ability to set your team size that we'll be getting in i16 is, I think, the devs finally admitting that farming happens, they will never stop it, and trying to make it less intrusive for those players who don't participate.
AE farming happens, they will never stop it without nerfing AE rewards to the point where nobody uses it for anything, and this thread is an attempt at coming up with ways to make it less intrusive for those who don't participate.
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Quote:
That is exactly the problem when any one portion of the game over shadows and hampers the rest it diminishes the overall enjoyment of the game.|
Originally Posted by AncientSpirit_NA
You may already have de facto "dedicated" AE zones: Blueside, it is in AP. Redside, it appears to be in Cap. (I can only speak from experience blueside on Freedom and redside on Pinnacle.)
What makes AP so desirable is that so many new toons don't want to do the same old missions or sewer teams to level up in the beginning. Cap appears desirable because the arbitor is so closeby, as is the Black Market. |
I have flown by the AE building on my way to pay the SG rent in Atlas and was put through a sucession of Map Serves and finally DC'd reconnected and repeated again. Now I am not the brightest bulb in the package but when you have to re-log over 5 times just to get away from a simple building just so you can pay your rent, there is a problem. ( and why we cant set up auto bill pay from our local paragon bank I dont know. If the water company can figure out how to autopay the bill then youwuld think that a Hero or Villian of our caliber would be able to.)
Yes that is semi off topic but if you have to pay the bill at a speciffic location and said location is infested with lag and activities you would rather not subjugate to. The it is Semi on topic. Having an Auto bill pay would negate the need to go to atlas except for a cape mission or to get to the hollows if you are not a member of a SG. You can enter in Galaxy City and do anything else you need to else where but why should we have to give up something that is an intragl part of the game?
You can simply have an AE building right where it is and let it port you wherever to be on the inside. it does not need to have the pretty windows to be functional. maybe a nice feature but after 5 minutes of that do you keep on looking out the window in an online game? and even that can be simulated so as to preserve the look of AE.
Quote:
It's a role-playing GAME. The beauty of such a thing is that it can be different things to different people.|
Originally Posted by Gloxina
Many things turned out to be what was not initially intended. I believe an famous author one said "good intentions line the stairway to hell". Firts and foremost CoX is a RPG, Role Playing Game. not an arcade where you see how high you can score. how much role playing can be had just running the same mission over and over. not much charater development can come from that.
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Quote:
| I do hope you are right on that count. The amount of farming is attrocious. People lagging down the game in an attempt to make a profit of the lazy are not very heroic. Villianous perhaps, but not heroic. No offense to any villians out there. |
Also, players are not at fault for other people's lag issues, unless they deliberately do things specifically to cause lag and/or be annoying (such as dropping Freezing Rain at Wentworth's, or at a Hami raid). Herd mentality has caused lag issues since long before AE existed; Atlas Park on Freedom has always been a lagfest, but people still start new characters there instead of Galaxy, even if they're not planning on AE farming. Not to mention all those players moving from their home servers to Freedom and Virtue...because that's where the crowd is. Herd mentality will never go away. It's up to the devs to minimize the negative impact of this behavior.
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Quote:
You can pay rent in Galaxy, actually. There is a supergroup registrar inside the Hero Corps building.
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Originally Posted by Gloxina
I have flown by the AE building on my way to pay the SG rent in Atlas and was put through a sucession of Map Serves and finally DC'd reconnected and repeated again. Now I am not the brightest bulb in the package but when you have to re-log over 5 times just to get away from a simple building just so you can pay your rent, there is a problem. ( and why we cant set up auto bill pay from our local paragon bank I dont know. If the water company can figure out how to autopay the bill then youwuld think that a Hero or Villian of our caliber would be able to.)
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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Quit changing the subject to other silly things. The idea of AE being it's own zone is a good one. I hate when people bury good ideas in nonsense filled posts that distract from the actual OP. Noone cares about the differences between farming and PLing, or how someone roleplays, or what you see out the windows...stick to the actual subject.
A dedicated AE zone isn't a bad idea at all.
My main criticism of AE has always been its 'virtual reality entertainment' aspect. I would have far preferred the concept to have been based either on alternate reality portal technology or linked to Orobouros.
I do believe that the AE building needs to be removed from Atlas Park. Its mere presence fundamentally alters AP as a starting zone - for the worse IMHO.
So .. Yes to a dedicated AE zone.
On the subject of farming and PL, some people really are getting confused about this. Farming missions for inf/XP/tickets and PL'ing characters for personal gain is absolutely fine. Personally I enjoy certain 'farming' type maps purely for the higher difficulty settings that can be programmed in. Actually the more I think about it the term 'farming' here is very misleading. I may play missions that are set in farm type maps but the mobs are always as tough as nails and set to 53/54. Hardly easy kills.
Try doing a Dreck map with custom 53/54 all Boss mobs and you'll see what I mean. You need to know how to play the game well - and know how to get the best out of your characters to enjoy/survive the experience.
Yes it does give a tremendous amount of XP and inf but I (and my friends) do it more for the higher difficulty than anything else. We regularly play various level 50 characters on a map of this type - for fun. The higher inf rate is purely a bonus.
If I want to bump up a new character to travel powers at level 14, using an AE mission then I'll do it - again purely for personal gain. I already have multiple non PL'd level 50's from before AE existed, so I feel no guilt in using AE missions in this manner.
If anything it's made the game a lot more fun for me - and my friends - because we can bypass lower levels if we choose to. Don't get me wrong here. I still very much enjoy doing a Hollows or Kings/Steel run on a lowbie character but AE allows me the freedom of choice in the matter.
'Gold farmers' in CoX are a totally different matter, and these should be persecuted by the devs. This type of farming is purely commercial in nature and should have no place in the game.
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Quote:
This is entirely irrelevant to the point.|
Originally Posted by Gloxina
Many things turned out to be what was not initially intended.
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You stated, "If there was zero xp earned in AE and no item drops but only tickets earned then AE would be as it was intended."
I pointed out the error in this statement. MA requires XP rewards to be "as it was intended". It is, by design, a leveling alternative. You can't level without XP. Thus, MA requires XP rewards to be "as it was intended".
Ergo, the statement, "If there was zero xp earned in AE and no item drops but only tickets earned then AE would be as it was intended" is false.
Whether or not there should be XP is an entirely different argument, and one I'm not going to delve into (again). Particularly because I believe it's completely academic.
Quote:
| I believe an famous author one said "good intentions line the stairway to hell". |
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OP you do realise that this warrants me to quote my grandfather by stating "Too little too damn late."
If the Devs were going ot have implimented the AE in it's own zone we would have had it by now.
Here is a very novel idea. Put AE in its own zone.
This would place all the players wishing to partake in one locale. This would also remove the broadcasts for level 48 teams in Atlas Park.
I was attempting to introduce a friend to CoH and the amount of lag generated by AE and the constant chatter from AE was overwelming. It does not pay to being a noob to AP. If I had not gotten her to Galacy City. I do not think she would have stayed past the free trial.
AE is a great concept and a wonderful tool. It just should not be in every zone. Putting AE in a zone of its own would be the best. With entry points on several zones, like the Vangard for the Rikti War Zone.
Or Even Pocket D. Durring non-event time periods, it is idle. Why not simply put AE In Pocket D. That would be the easiest solution if giving AE its own Zone would not be feasible.