Quote:
The point is that those tools offset, not that they have no practical effect. Do I really have to explain why it isn't honest to count one and not the other? Do you really insist that we have to come up with a numerical model for all proactive mitigation tools, across all builds, before we can begin to discuss anything else?|
Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
How are those proactive tools not relevant? They are extremely relevant: do they offer enough to the Blaster to get the job done when they need it? It's a very strong yes (not a canard, as you say... being able to mez a boss is quite useful solo, and even on a team: I was mezzing Rikti bosses the other day that were pounding the snot out of the Brutes and Scrapper that were on my team). And yes, I am aware you can say the same for Scrappers, etc. But that's what we're looking at, overall performance. Do Blasters offer enough as they are compared to other archetypes? I would argue that yes, they do, and the mitigation tools are a part of that evaluation.
|
Quote:
| Your discussion of what melee types can do with mitigation isn't quite thorough enough, either. |
Quote:
| And range still comes into play with this. Many of a Blaster's mitigation tools still come from range, which is important... I don't have to race in to mez with my Blasters, unlike my melee characters. And bringing up Lightning Rod or Shield Charge is only going to do so much here, too. Those sets gave up some survivability to be more offensive, and those powers are on long recharge timers, unlike many of the AOEs Blasters have access to. |
2. I purposely brought up only examples from offensive melee sets, because the whole point of my post was that non-defensive-set powers should be thrown out for the sake of simplicity. So I didn't mention Shield Charge, or Oppressive Gloom, or any of the other proactive powers that come from defensive sets.
I mentioned powers available to offensive melee sets, though I certainly didn't list them comprehensively. And if you go down the list, you'll see a pretty impressive collection of proactive mitigation tools in those sets, save Fire. Notice the trend?
I reiterate: The number of proactive mitigation powers is not a good metric for determining their practical value. If an SS Brute keeps his targets on the ground most of the time just by attacking normally, and Joe Blaster has no fewer than 3 single-target holds available to him, then who actually receives more proactive mitigation over time?
It probably isn't the Blaster. Even if it were, the Blaster will still take more time and care to apply those controls, whereas the Brute has to go to no especial effort; the mitigation happens almost by accident, while he's getting down to the business of killing stuff. And the Brute gets a nice hold folded into his hardest hitter. And he has access to a large-radius AoE stun/knockback -- which most meleers don't take, because it isn't necessary, but then I suppose that's a statement in and of itself.
Incidentally, I just know someone will read my for-instance comparison above, and say, "But Energy Blasters can keep their targets KBed, too!" I know that. I'm just illustrating why counting controls isn't instructive in any practical sense. Energy Blasters are great for solo play for the very reason that i'm trying to highlight here: Having mitigation come in the course of your natural attack chain is often more valuable than having a bunch of situational, uni-tasker mitigation tools in your backpocket.
Do Blaster controls matter in actual gameplay? Of course. What I was responding to was the claim that somehow people have been wilfully ignoring those tools in discussing the comparison. Clearly, there is no purposeful attempt to conceal Blaster controls here; they are simply taken as given. All that matters, when you're discussing relative survivability, are the factors that aren't shared.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Quote:
No, they are very relevant. Obitus, you have been using a whole lot of words in your last few posts, and not really saying anything. You don't actually seem to have a position at all, to be frank, other than to argue for the sake of argument.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
And you ignored the reasons I laid out as to why those proactive tools are not relevant.
|
This whole thing started off on the false pretense that somehow Scrappers have more damage than Blasters. That was quickly proven untrue. Then the argument was made that the damage of Scrappers was close enough, that the lack of survivability on behalf of Blasters was now the issue. Again, that was debunked, as Blasters have adequate survivability while solo through the use of their controls, and on teams with even a modicum of support they are also survivable. All the while, still bringing excellent damage ability to the table.
You have acknowledged that Blasters can easily solo EB's as well as even solo AV's. I don't see how survivability can still be in question. My AR/EM blaster can outpace every Scrapper I've seen on the wall in Cimerora, and has the survivability to keep going without pause.
Not to knock Scrappers, because I have several, and I enjoy playing them, but if I am putting together a TF team, the last AT type I would look for would be a Scrapper because they bring the least to the team. I'm not going to turn them away, but I don't go out of my way to look for them either. Generally, by the time they move to melee range and finish engaging a single opponent, the entire spawn has been wiped by the Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, etc. The lack of AOE damage on Scrappers is painfully apparent in these cases.
This thread is nothing more than beating yet another dead horse over AT balance. No different than the threads that pop up in the Tanker forum crying for more damage, or the threads in the Defender forum crying about how they can't solo. And just like all those other threads, this one should be put to rest as well. At least until someone else decides to beat on the 'ol horse again.
Quote:
When I was arguing this point, Arcanaville pointed this fact out to me: The Scrapper will scale vs harder targets better. Sure, vs up to +2s, it might be fairly even. Once you start hitting +3s, +4s, and larger spawns and bosses every spawn, scrappers can keep going, while blasters will be eating pavement (or slowing down to avoid eating pavement).|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
You have acknowledged that Blasters can easily solo EB's as well as even solo AV's. I don't see how survivability can still be in question. My AR/EM blaster can outpace every Scrapper I've seen on the wall in Cimerora, and has the survivability to keep going without pause.
|
She mentioned this to me 2 years ago. It is even more relevant now that some type of new difficulty slider is coming in I16.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Defiance's damage buff is actually quite easy to quantify: for a pure single target attack string, you'll generally net ~40% +dam. For a pure AoE attack string (for those that actually get one), you'll manage ~15% +dam. For mixed attack strings, it's somewhere in the middle. Now, if you want to get specific quantification, that's not actually all that hard either. It just requires a bit more work. All it takes is the attack string and about 2-3 minutes with a calculator.
|
Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
Not vast. Relevant. Yes, they are extremely hard to quantify, much like Defiance's damage buff. But they are relevant, as they are an important part to Blaster survivability.
|
Quote:
Saying that they are relevant doesn't make it so. The point of a comparison is to compare -- that is, to find and measure differences. It isn't to take points of similarity and offer them undue weight on one side or the other.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No, they are very relevant.
|
You can't say that, because no one has mentioned Blasters' proactive mitigation tools, therefore Blasters are more comparatively survivable. Why? Because almost everyone else has similarly effective proactive mitigation tools.
Quote:
| Obitus, you have been using a whole lot of words in your last few posts, and not really saying anything. You don't actually seem to have a position at all, to be frank, other than to argue for the sake of argument. |
The point is, though, that concerns are not automatically invalid because someone can point to generally higher AoE damage, or can list control powers without any context. I mean, for gosh sake, the post that started this little mini-conversation about Blaster controls was basically linking them with Dominator controls -- in importance, if not in magnitude.
I like the way my Blasters play, and from a purely subjective, selfish point of view, I don't want any dramatic changes to them, because if I want to play an easy-mode AT, I have meleers. That's not a position, so much as it is a personal preference.
I do worry, though, that the role of a Blaster, such as it is now, will grow marginalized with the introduction of the new difficulty sliders. We already know that teams comprised of pure buff/debuff builds are the best, but how will the new slider affect more casual team dynamics?
Will we see fewer and fewer mostly-minion-composed spawns, to the point where the Blaster's dominance in the AoE alpha department is less important? Is specializing in damage dealing really a good role in this game? Do Blasters do far and away the most damage, of any AT, under any circumstance? I'm not sure that those last two can be answered with an unqualified yes.
In any case, the importance of solo ability -- and all it implies -- may grow, or at least become more contentious, in the days to follow.
Quote:
| This thread is nothing more than beating yet another dead horse over AT balance. No different than the threads that pop up in the Tanker forum crying for more damage, or the threads in the Defender forum crying about how they can't solo. And just like all those other threads, this one should be put to rest as well. At least until someone else decides to beat on the 'ol horse again. |
In the meanwhile, the only thing I can say is that I reserve judgment pending Issue 16. I had thought to respond more fully to your post, but in the interest of using fewer words, I'll refrain.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
Quote:
Archetype A has X, Archetype A has X and Y. Thus, for AT A, X is more relevant than it is for B, because B, in addition to X has Y. Scrapper's have controls options and indeed consider them when comparing Primaries. However, the effectiveness of these controls are a secondary consideration because their entire secondary has a much greater effect on their survivabiliy.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
And you ignored the reasons I laid out as to why those proactive tools are not relevant.
If Archetype A has X, and Archetype B has X and Y, then you simplify by ignoring X. You cannot legitimately argue that a Blaster's proactive mitigation tools (such as they are) are relevant and then argue that a Scrapper's aren't. |
Blasters don't have a secondary powerset dedicated for defense. Therefore, the only mitigation tools they have become much more important to them. It's not much mitigation, but it's the only mitigation Blasters get until Ancillaries. Barring killing mobs really, really fast, a Blaster has no other tools to mitigate damage. Thus, those tools, perhaps of doubtful effetiveness, are relevant to any discussion on the subject of Blaster survivability.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Shall I go on, or can we in good faith move past the canard that Blaster controls somehow represent a vastly underrated and undermentioned facet of their survivability? In a perfect world, if we could somehow accurately quantify the effect of these proactive tools over the wide spectrum of possible builds, then sure, that would be the best thing -- but the fact is that it would be a monumental effort to determine what is, on its face, relatively speaking a miniscule factor in any numerical comparison. Defiance is about seven thousand times easier to quantify, by the way.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SlyGuyMCFly
Not unique, not unusually effective. True. They do have a relevant effect. If they didn't, a Sonic/EM would be just as survivable in solo play as a Fire/Fire. This is demostrably not the case.
|
Quote:
| Simply counting control powers or control effects is misleading. |
Look! Dead horse!
At one point (around issue 6, so it may no longer be true; it may never have been a good approximation for all I know) I approximated Scrappers in their 30's as "six times tougher than a Blaster, discounting mez protection."
That's an awful lot to overcome with, perhaps, 1/3 more damage.
I tend to weight the 1-49 game as much or more than the level 50 game, because if your Blaster sucks at level 35 they're not GETTING to level 50. Set IO's only have a strong effect on gameplay at high levels, because most of the benefits (Ranged Defense, for instance) require free slots- ones that you're not using to 3-slot Stamina or 5-slot Inferno or otherwise giving powers the basic necessities- and those tend to only come up in the 40's. Epic shield? Level 45, with the slots.
My general view is "Blaster damage makes them more valuable to their teammates; their extreme squishiness is a penalty only to them."
Blasters have enough mitigation solo, and a team provides enough mitigation, only when everything goes right. If you're accuracy-capped, you still have about a 10% chance of missing one of the two holds required to freeze a boss in place. If you're teamed with an Empath who is putting Fortitude on the granite tank, and figures that you should know your place and not get shot at, you're not going to be able to do your damage fully and freely.
I has been a long time since I've played a blaster on a PUG. Maybe I'll do that today, and let you know how it goes.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
Heh, I recently had an encounter with someone who insisted that Fortitude should always go only to meleers. I didn't really argue the point, because whatever my reputation on the forums may be, I'm usually not that contentious in the game, or in life, for that matter. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Blasters have enough mitigation solo, and a team provides enough mitigation, only when everything goes right. If you're accuracy-capped, you still have about a 10% chance of missing one of the two holds required to freeze a boss in place. If you're teamed with an Empath who is putting Fortitude on the granite tank, and figures that you should know your place and not get shot at, you're not going to be able to do your damage fully and freely. |
There is a rather strong strain of the opinion that Blasters should be responsible for managing their own aggro, though -- and it's not an unreasonable opinion on its face. The thing is, that if a Blaster's constantly on tenterhooks, his (particularly AoE) damage advantage basically goes out the window.
Quote:
| I has been a long time since I've played a blaster on a PUG. Maybe I'll do that today, and let you know how it goes. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
Honestly, I much prefer playing a Blaster the way they are "meant" to be played. At range, using distance and what little control abilities they get to keep the enemy away, with a few melee range attacks for those times playing 'keep away' fails.
Or, if you play a Blapper type, dancing in and out of Melee range. I would *never* neglect range attacks in favor of melee attacks as a Blaster, unless the character is on a "fixed team", a group of characters that always play together.
So, to compare a Blaster to a Scrapper is pretty pointless. A Scrapper has to get up close and personal, and has the damage mitigation tools to do it. Blasters *don't* need that. Defiance 2.0, with its overall damage boost and its attacks that can be used even when mezzed, is sufficient to the purpose.
Having played under both types of Defiance, I find that Blasters are exactly where they should be as an archetype, and that if you find yourself faceplanting, it's because you're soloing using AOE attacks, drawing too much attention and not defeating the enemies fast enough.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Defiance's damage buff is actually quite easy to quantify: for a pure single target attack string, you'll generally net ~40% +dam. For a pure AoE attack string (for those that actually get one), you'll manage ~15% +dam. For mixed attack strings, it's somewhere in the middle. Now, if you want to get specific quantification, that's not actually all that hard either. It just requires a bit more work. All it takes is the attack string and about 2-3 minutes with a calculator.
|
I didn't know that. I would have thought it was harder than that, but my math background isn't so great. Thanks for the info, now I can get me some better numbers for my Arch/EM
Quote:
I really think you're mixing up two different things here. If we're talking about blasters in isolation, or comparing different blaster combos to each other, then those mitigation tools are highly relevant. I've always felt that blasters should take and use their control powers, and take them into account when choosing a build, unless they're in a strong SG or something and can be confident of nearly always being on a good team. My inveterate soloing and PUG-ing behavior explains my fondness for the ice secondary. Oftentimes, even on teams, Shiver/Chilling Embrace and Ice Patch are the only things keeping me alive. Many defenders and controllers, even assuming they're capable, seem to be uninterested in doing that job. They see blasters as expendable.|
Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
Archetype A has X, Archetype A has X and Y. Thus, for AT A, X is more relevant than it is for B, because B, in addition to X has Y. Scrapper's have controls options and indeed consider them when comparing Primaries. However, the effectiveness of these controls are a secondary consideration because their entire secondary has a much greater effect on their survivabiliy.
Blasters don't have a secondary powerset dedicated for defense. Therefore, the only mitigation tools they have become much more important to them. It's not much mitigation, but it's the only mitigation Blasters get until Ancillaries. Barring killing mobs really, really fast, a Blaster has no other tools to mitigate damage. Thus, those tools, perhaps of doubtful effetiveness, are relevant to any discussion on the subject of Blaster survivability. |
So I'm the last person that would ever argue that blaster controls are irrelevant. When talking about just blasters, they're highly relevant.
When you start comparing to other AT's, though, that's entering a different territory. What was relevant in one context isn't so relevant in the other.
Say a blaster has X survivability from controls, and say a scrapper has X (from controls) + Y (from armors) survivability. You could argue that the relevance of X is overwhelmed by the Y, and I'd say that's probably true. But we're looking at both AT's at the same time--if scrapper X is overwhelmed by scrapper Y, then blaster X is also overwhelmed by scrapper Y. It doesn't make sense to discount it only on one side.
I hope I'm making sense, and didn't get my letters mixed up there. Also, new forums are nifty.
My main blaster does easily twice the damage of my main scrapper, and dies far less often. Blasters are actually balanced quite well now.
There was a guy on Pinnacle who soloed the ITF with a Fire/Fire blaster. A FIRE/FIRE, with pretty much no mitigation at all!
My fire/fire is squishy, he doesn't solo well. But if I get him on a team with a competent tank, and nothing else, his damage output becomes jaw-dropping. My Sonic/Devices is approximately 10% ranged defense away from soloing AVs with relative ease. He already can if I pack enough Lucks to keep him over softcap for long enough.
I currently don't have a scrapper that can do the same. I have spent far more on my main scrapper than my main blaster. And my blaster blows my scrapper away.
Blasters are fine.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I have to agree .. my Fire/Fire Blaster has no trouble dealing out damage, as long as the tank isn't target capped.
Something i see more and more often in AE missions.
It annoys me that on an 8 man team, standard spawns can become so large that they target cap on a tank.
That's bloody unfair to the Tank.
I'm very happy for my Raptor Pack, which doesn't take End to use.
It has saved me many, many, MANY times.
Thank you very much, Raptor Pack.
Quote:
It's only unfair to the tank if they care about "saving" the team, otherwise it's unfair to the team |
It annoys me that on an 8 man team, standard spawns can become so large that they target cap on a tank. That's bloody unfair to the Tank. |
. I however love these situations and enjoy the challenge. It's the only reason I bring my tank into an AE farm. He's a Shield/EM/Pyre and taking all that agro to cap out AAO and see that damage is amazing. Actually having to pick out your targets and rotate what you're doing actually makes for a fun experience. When you see one or two break off fling a fireblast or fireball at whomever is now ignoring you and they run back.
Active 50s:
Zero Defex: DP/MM//Mace Blaster
Mutant X-7: Fire/MM//Mace Blaster
Running my Kin/EA gloriously
Come on I21!!!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
|
Quote:
Other than soft capped range defense, Hover, and the ability to immob the hard enemies so they stayed at range, he had pretty much no mitigation at all! |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
There was a guy on Pinnacle who soloed the ITF with a Fire/Fire blaster. A FIRE/FIRE, with pretty much no mitigation at all!
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
*looks confused*|
Originally Posted by MutantX_7
It's only unfair to the tank if they care about "saving" the team
|
What else is a Tanker supposed to do?
Quote:
| I however love these situations and enjoy the challenge. It's the only reason I bring my tank into an AE farm. He's a Shield/EM/Pyre and taking all that agro to cap out AAO and see that damage is amazing. |
Quote:
| Actually having to pick out your targets and rotate what you're doing actually makes for a fun experience. When you see one or two break off fling a fireblast or fireball at whomever is now ignoring you and they run back. |
Quote:
That's why I said "care", if someone goes down, I'm not that torn up over a teamate's "death". I'm not actively seeking my teamates downfall but I'm not heartbroken if/when it occurs.|
*looks confused* What else is a Tanker supposed to do? |
Quote:
| AAO = ? |
(I love shields)Quote:
| But that's the problem for my Tanker, once he's aggro capped, they no longer aggro when I use my powers on them, because there's too many enemies on me already, so they simply ignore me. |
Active 50s:
Zero Defex: DP/MM//Mace Blaster
Mutant X-7: Fire/MM//Mace Blaster
Running my Kin/EA gloriously
Come on I21!!!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
|
Okay, dude...,
- Look, I've been playing blasters probably since beta (or earlier)...you wanna complain? You wanna talk about no mez protection...no, serioiusly...let's TALK about no mez protection. Let's talk about a Sapper (Malta Minion/Lt) KILLING you because you could NOT fight back...because you were stunned. Yeah, I shut down this arguement...you can thank me later...'nuff said.
Quote:
What are you trying to say here? Your post makes almost no sense.
|
Originally Posted by ThunderPuncher
Okay, dude...,
- Look, I've been playing blasters probably since beta (or earlier)...you wanna complain? You wanna talk about no mez protection...no, serioiusly...let's TALK about no mez protection. Let's talk about a Sapper (Malta Minion/Lt) KILLING you because you could NOT fight back...because you were stunned. Yeah, I shut down this arguement...you can thank me later...'nuff said. |
Quote:
This is false the raptor pack use 0.19/s
|
Originally Posted by Little_Missy
I'm very happy for my Raptor Pack, which doesn't take End to use.
It has saved me many, many, MANY times. Thank you very much, Raptor Pack. |
Quote:
Like, dude, what?
|
Originally Posted by ThunderPuncher
Okay, dude...,
- Look, I've been playing blasters probably since beta (or earlier)...you wanna complain? You wanna talk about no mez protection...no, serioiusly...let's TALK about no mez protection. Let's talk about a Sapper (Malta Minion/Lt) KILLING you because you could NOT fight back...because you were stunned. Yeah, I shut down this arguement...you can thank me later...'nuff said. |
Quote:
I think he's saying that a Tanker/Scrapper who gets his toggles dropped by a Sapper will be chain stunned, and thus, he might as well not have had mez protection.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
What are you trying to say here? Your post makes almost no sense.
|
Which would be an absurd argument, but there you go.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
I can has Radiation Melee and Manipulation nao plz?!?!?!?!!
Radiation Melee for Tankers and Brutes!!
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
I mostly agree with the OP. I don't think blasters bring the damage enough to warrant all the protection they need to bring said damage and survive.
"The bird of Hermes is my name. Eating my wings to make me tame." -The Ripley Scroll
Check out my Deviant Art: http://darkauthor81.deviantart.com/
How are those proactive tools not relevant? They are extremely relevant: do they offer enough to the Blaster to get the job done when they need it? It's a very strong yes (not a canard, as you say... being able to mez a boss is quite useful solo, and even on a team: I was mezzing Rikti bosses the other day that were pounding the snot out of the Brutes and Scrapper that were on my team). And yes, I am aware you can say the same for Scrappers, etc. But that's what we're looking at, overall performance. Do Blasters offer enough as they are compared to other archetypes? I would argue that yes, they do, and the mitigation tools are a part of that evaluation.
Your discussion of what melee types can do with mitigation isn't quite thorough enough, either. An AR or En Blaster can keep foes tumbling as well or easily as any character with SS. An MA Scrapper is going to take about 4.1 seconds to stun a boss reliably (you can hope to stack up some stuns from Thunder Kick, but the only reliable way of stunning a boss is a Cobra Strike followed by a Eagle's Claw), while an AR/EM can do it in 3.4 seconds. An AR/Dev can do it even faster and easier. Archery can do it, too. Sure, you have to have a good pairing, but that's the same for any AT.
And range still comes into play with this. Many of a Blaster's mitigation tools still come from range, which is important... I don't have to race in to mez with my Blasters, unlike my melee characters. And bringing up Lightning Rod or Shield Charge is only going to do so much here, too. Those sets gave up some survivability to be more offensive, and those powers are on long recharge timers, unlike many of the AOEs Blasters have access to.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory