I agree completely.
Yes i use energy blast as the main average basis as well. Not sure on the damage scale you're using.
The old scale besides the actual level 50 daamge amount i used to use had power bolt at 2.778, blast at 4.556, etc.
But per values Sniper blast in energy should be roughly:
Power Bolt: 62.56 damage
DPA: 62.56
DPS: 12.512
Power Blast: 102.6 damage
DPA: 61.44
DPS: 10.61
Power Burst: 132.63 damage
DPA: 66.315
DPS: 11.05
Sniper Blast (Current): 172.67 damage
DPA: 39.88
DPS: 10.57
RECH: 12s
Sniper Blast (with properish DPA): 269.37 (56% increase)
DPA: 62
DPS: 11.07
RECH: 20s
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
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From Red Tomax's City of Data, if you click on the Archetype drop-down and pick "Unspecified," this will give you scale values for all power attributes before they are multiplied by the AT's different mods, which can then be found elsewhere on Red Tomax's site. Mind you, not everything you can get scale values for, because anything which doesn't use player AT mods doesn't have the option of displaying Unspecified values. Mastermind henchmen and all pseudo-pets fall into that category, though they may be others.
If you look back into the I15 Dominator changes, all of their damage changes to the specific powers are given in scale damage. Their Snipes, more specifically, went from 2.7 to 3.56, which is roughly from Cleave to Knockout Blow damage, AT mods notwithstanding. The reason I chose to use AT mods is because I know the values for them off-hand and without checking, and I know what the change will be exactly (or with an accuracy of two decimal digits, anyway). With specific AT mods, it's a little more complicated. If I had to give you a percentage change, though, the Dominator change upped Snipe damage by a little under 32% of their original, and I can guarantee you we won't see anything over that. There are only a handful of powers in the game that score more than 3.56 scale damage, and all of them are exotic or exceptions. Nukes, Assassin's Strikes, Energy Transfer and the Dominator Total Focus (by a bit, it's 3.88) do that, and that's all the player powers I'm aware of that do that.
Nukes drain you fully and go like scale 3 100%, another scale 1.5 at 75%, and another scale 1.5 at 50% chance, so you don't always get full damage. Assassin's Strikes are slow, interruptible, melee AND require you to be hidden for the extra damage component to fire, but with it they go up to about scale 7. Energy Transfer is scale 4.5, but it also does something between scale 1 to scale 2 damage to self, which is moderate to heavy. Total Focus is 3.56 for all ATs other than Dominators, who have their own specific version of it at 3.88. A 56% increase of Snipe damage over what we have now would put it at 4.212, which I just don't see happening in this game. Mind you, I'd LIKE it if it did, but Brutes pay 10% of their total hit points for damage not vastly greater than this.
I don't think we'll ever see Snipes reach the kind of DPA we see from more regular attacks, sadly, because that would require either a serious increase in damage, or an increase in damage and the Assault Rifle treatment of slashing animation time, which may not be acceptable. I don't foresee them ever getting extra gimmicks, like critical chance, Assassin's Strike debuffs or scaling damage based on enemy class, so, really, damage is all we have to look at. I have to admit that there IS benefit to be had from allowing a power to do a large chunk of damage almost instantly, whereas even a high DPA power would take several repetitions to do so, but even WITH the increases I suggested last time, neither the DPE nor the DPS of Snipes exceeds those of the other powers, and given that this still leaves them with, at best, an about equal beneficiary from Build Up and Aim, we're still going to have to look at utility as an added bonus. However, if Snipes can at least break even, numbers-wise, then I'm sure their utility will be MUCH more appreciated as is.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'd more than say that snipes fall under the exotic category. With the longest activation time for an attack, and the interruptibility, i'd more than categorize it as such. 2.785 seconds is the activation time needed to give the snipe a normalized DPA. Even ARs faster activation time is still way off by far for the damage it does without having to touch the attacks recharge.| There are only a handful of powers in the game that score more than 3.56 scale damage, and all of them are exotic or exceptions. Nukes, Assassin's Strikes, Energy Transfer and the Dominator Total Focus (by a bit, it's 3.88) do that, and that's all the player powers I'm aware of that do that. |
Or perhaps a mix of both, shortered activation to like 3.2 seconds, and slighter increased damage as well. Whichever as long as the DPA becomes worth to use the power.
As to having the higher damage scale and being worried about that, you shouldn't be, because you need to factor in exactly the fact of the activation time and fact that its interruptible and recharge. As long as they all match up, then anything is fine as long as i'm concerned. You could have a ST attack with a 10 damage scale, however it would have to recharge in something like 50 seconds and take over 10 seconds to animate. Which is not something i would consider useful at all, but stat-wise would be perfectly sound. (aside from being able to possibly 1 shot a boss so it WOUDLNT happen, just saying as an example, the suggested snipe would be nowhere near that however so would be fine)
And this is all consdering the main thing, which is equalizing the snipes DPA. I really see zero reason why their activation time COULDN'T just be shorter like AR's.
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This sums it up for me. |
Originally Posted by Hatred666
The problem is that no other AT should compare to Blaster damage. In all honesty, Blasters should do at least double the damage they do now.
1. They have no inherent resistance. 2. They have no inherent defense. 3. They have no inherent healing powers other than Drain Psyche. 4. They have no inherent mez protection, and the only AT without such. 5. They have very few mitigation tools. That's a lot to give up for a high damage level. So no, no other AT therefore should come close to their damage. Spines scrappers should not be able to outdamage a blaster. A controller with a Fulcrum Shifted fireball should not outdamage a Fire Blasters fireball. Etc. Etc. |
However much the OP has been ridiculed and whatever the merits of the discussion, blasters are no longer the glass cannon they were conceived to be. They are a glass water-pistol instead. Their damage is very poor compared to their inherent lack of resistance and that's pretty well across the board (speaking as someone with 4 lvl 50 blasters.)
Comparisons with other ATs are always going to be very difficult unless you have the data mining capabilities available to the Devs and the fact that a blaster is underpowered doesn't mean it's impossible to play, it just means that you go into the game knowing you're at a significant disadvantage to your colleagues.
Defiance 2.0 went a fair way to addressing some of the blaster gimp issues but there's still an awful long way to go, not least PVP.
But however you care to draw comparisons, who'd ever consider doing an All-Blaster ITF or LGTF? Yet they're readily achievable with an all melee team or an all defender or dom or VEAT teams and that, I'd venture to say, is the acid test of a blaster's worth.
Sadly as the game stands, a blaster is one of the last ATs you'd want on your team of heavy hitters and that is a crying shame.
Thelonious Monk
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The ITF lacks mezzing and is readily and easily achievable for an all blaster team. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
But however you care to draw comparisons, who'd ever consider doing an All-Blaster ITF or LGTF?
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A LGTF would be annoying, but enemies won't last very long. Rikti mez a lot, but they aren't going to mez the whole team, and since it only takes two blasters to wipe the spawn, the Rikti would have to mez better than 6 of 8, which is unlikely. The Hami might be tough, but everything else should be readily doable.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I have ran an all blaster LGTF. No issues, and recall only about a dozen or so deaths, maybe a few more. This was last fall when we ran it. We hit the 2 hr mark exactly (2:00) and even met the challenge for it. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
A LGTF would be annoying, but enemies won't last very long. Rikti mez a lot, but they aren't going to mez the whole team, and since it only takes two blasters to wipe the spawn, the Rikti would have to mez better than 6 of 8, which is unlikely. The Hami might be tough, but everything else should be readily doable.
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Also on Victory, Satanic Hamster has lead all blaster TFs and trial for all (including SS) except the STF. So they are done, and blasters come out fine.
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HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Oh. Wait. You're serious? |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Sadly as the game stands, a blaster is one of the last ATs you'd want on your team of heavy hitters and that is a crying shame.
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... yeah, because there is no difference between "any blasters on a team" and "all blasters on a team." |
But however you care to draw comparisons, who'd ever consider doing an All-Blaster ITF or LGTF? Yet they're readily achievable with an all melee team or an all defender or dom or VEAT teams and that, I'd venture to say, is the acid test of a blaster's worth. Sadly as the game stands, a blaster is one of the last ATs you'd want on your team of heavy hitters and that is a crying shame. |
Wait, what?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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All "anything" teams ie superteams are possible. If everyone gets manuevers/tactics. Slots maneuvers, and puts a full set of gaussians in tactics, with combat jumping. The entire team of blasters (cause using blaster values) is starting at 33.17% defense if using level 50 LOTG 7.5% in the base slot of CJ.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The ITF lacks mezzing and is readily and easily achievable for an all blaster team.
A LGTF would be annoying, but enemies won't last very long. Rikti mez a lot, but they aren't going to mez the whole team, and since it only takes two blasters to wipe the spawn, the Rikti would have to mez better than 6 of 8, which is unlikely. The Hami might be tough, but everything else should be readily doable. |
In the case of ITF, where most all the damgae is smashing/lethal or at least partly smash/lethal, simply picking up frozen armor with a base slot of a 50 LOTG 7.5% would cap their defense. And/or any defense bonuses achieved would go a long way as well. And the blasters could pick up stimulant as well, aid other/self for the rare heal they'd need.
Superteams can do anything in this game, its the way the game was designed. If it werent designed to where a superteam could accomplish anything, then whatever they couldn't, would be far too hard for any normal gameplay, or even semi-skilled gameplay.
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Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
Quote:
While true, I was more simply talking of just regular all-blaster teams. The all blaster ITFs I have been involved in were not "superteams", they were just a bunch of people running the ITF with their blaster. We might have had one or two people with some Leadership, we were probably mostly well IOd, but we were not built with the idea of teaming together as an all-blaster team.
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Superteams can do anything in this game, its the way the game was designed. If it werent designed to where a superteam could accomplish anything, then whatever they couldn't, would be far too hard for any normal gameplay, or even semi-skilled gameplay.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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While I've never teamed with you (at least to the best of my knowledge), I have to say something; however you're playing the game, you're doing it wrong.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
But however you care to draw comparisons, who'd ever consider doing an All-Blaster ITF or LGTF? Yet they're readily achievable with an all melee team or an all defender or dom or VEAT teams and that, I'd venture to say, is the acid test of a blaster's worth.
Sadly as the game stands, a blaster is one of the last ATs you'd want on your team of heavy hitters and that is a crying shame. |
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Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
What the hell; starting up blaster only TF's again.
Friday night on Victory, ITF. Sign up thread posted.
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Currently listening to Sonic Youth's EVOL
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
The Team:
Fire/fire(2)
Fire/ice
Fire/mental
Psi/mental
En/en
AR/dev
Archery/dev
1 hr 22 minutes, 66 deaths.
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Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
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Quote:
I have to agree. While I would like to have a few tweaks here and there to improve some seriously underperforming powers, by and large blasters are pretty well off. I have a great time with mine.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I don't like threads like this one.
First of all, the OP, as been pointed out by others, makes a comparison between a single target blaster and an AoE-oriented scrapper and then leaps to the conclusion that the blaster must be inferior because the numbers say so. Second, it's pretty clear to me (as an owner of a level 50, heavily IO'ed spines scrapper and several level 50 blasters) that the OP hasn't played the ATs in question. Theory craft is amusing, but it's just that...theory. In actual practice, a spines scrapper, while it does respectable damage, is completely overshadowed by an AoE oriented blaster and overshadowed in single target damage by *any* blaster. I say this with confidence because a single target attack chain (unless there's crits) of lunge, ripper and impale will not impress anyone. Further, in AoEs, spine burst, while it does good damage roots and has a long animation. Throw spines is excellent and has a huge cone but it's not nearly as spammable as something like fireball and isn't close to the damage as something like flame thrower. I also have energy torrent as well too, but while it is a good power and complements throw spines, it's not going to wow anybody by itself. Third, it's pretty clear to me that the devs are moving in the direction of interchangeable ATs. Every AT can do damage. And to me the choice of damage comes down to whether you want something ranged (blasters, spines/claws scrapper) or melee (scrappers, blappers). Villain ATs cloud this picture even more. And I have a couple of brutes (an Electric/Shield and SS/Fire) that can rival many blasters in AoE damage, and yet there's no outrage that brutes will take away the job of blasters. No single AT is utterly dispensable; no single AT is utterly required. That's why you have all defender teams which trivialize any content in this game and they don't require *any* damage AT. Blasters are just fine. The change to defiance pretty much guarantees that they outdamage just about everything, though, as I mentioned before, many ATs can fill in for blasters on a given team. Personally, I think Castle and crew has done a pretty good job of making the blaster AT attractive and functional. I see none of the issues brought up by the OP. |
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
Power Blast DPA: 0.982
Power Burst DPA: 1.060
Sniper Blast DPA: 0.637
Now, evidently (or obviously), Sniper Blast is significantly less efficient in terms of time Energy Blast's quite basic attacks. The only time its damage is actually worth it is if you're not pressed for time, which essentially only happens at the start of a battle. At every other point during that battle, you're better off using other attacks, yet Sniper Blast is balanced around a fairly short recharge timer - 12 seconds. That's less than something like Knockout Blow, for Pete's Sake! But what if we up its damage to 3.56? Well, then we'll have.
Sniper Blast DPA: 0.822
Honestly, I am still not impressed, but here's the difference - this time when you DO open a fight with it, they WILL feel it. It may not be the most damage you can pump out, but it is still SERIOUS damage. To me, that would be about enough. But I want to be arrogant and keep pushing. Most Snipes activate in 4.33 seconds, with a 3 second interrupt time. There is one, however, which activates in 3.67 seconds - Assault Rifle's Sniper Rifle. So let's look at what would happen if Sniper Rifle were upped to 3.56 and retained its current animation time:
Sniper Rifle DPA: 0.970
Hmm... Now THAT looks quite good. With these numbers, using a Snipe is actually NOT a waste of time, damage and buff duration. In fact, it's about on part with everything else, outliers notwithstanding. Yes, it's slow and yes, it's interruptible, but when it does fire and when it does hit, it not only hits HARD, but it actually hits EFFICIENTLY hard. This, then, becomes a power I WANT to use every time I can, not a power I have to look for excuses not to use.
Granted, that's a big change, but I feel it's warranted.