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This is not due to no damage buff, you HAVE the damage buff you used to have with Domination ALL THE TIME. This is due to Dominators having few AoE attacks, and to an extent the increased recharge on those AoE attacks. Not all AoEs got increased recharge, though, Thunder Strike actually can be used more often now. Whirling Hands and Ice Sword Circle take longer to recharge now, but they have a much larger radius of effect.|
Originally Posted by MrEian
My 2 main issue's with Dom's are...
1.) The complete lack of AOE DMG (Due to no dmg buff, and increased recharge) |
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| 1.) Either add a smaller dmg buff with domination, or Add a containment aspect to it while it is up. Similar to controlers. Maybe instead of doing double damage it could be half on top of what is being done. |
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| 2.) Decrease the end costs of the powers back to pre i15 |
The other sets (except for Fire) have always had those higher End costs. Use the same strategies you would use for them. Fire, well, Flares and Combusion still have had their excess Fire damage removed, and it seems as if it will stay that way.
Oh no dominators have higher base damage now and gain more from external damage buffs and IO's. Pleas fix this it's terrible.
/sarcasm off
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Well, considering that it probably still going around that the End cost increase was to balance the increased base damage, and the fact that Psi Assault (which was essentially the only Dom set with massive AoE damage) has been intentionally and obviously nerfed, it is still possible that people buy into the claim that this is a nerf. |
Originally Posted by Jorlain
Oh no dominators have higher base damage now and gain more from external damage buffs and IO's. Pleas fix this it's terrible.
/sarcasm off |
The truth is, though, that the increased End cost and recharge is only for those sets that have gotten more powerful attacks, or the two PBAoEs that got greater radius. Outside of Psi Shockwave, Flares, and Combustion, all the attacks were made stronger in some areas and weaker in others, but they are still doing about the same damage in the long run. Total Focus takes longer to recharge now and costs more End, for instance, but it should do a lot more damage each time it does hit.
Dominators are quite a bit stronger and in my opinion much more fun to play than they were. I plan to roll more in Issue 16 in fact. I was just playing my long-unplayed mid-level Plant/Thorns yesterday. Instead of having to grind away at everything, she tore right through missions limited mainly by how fast Seeds recharged. As for the end use; take Stamina like everyone else.
If this was a nerf, nerf me more!
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
i just finished leveling my new Mind/NRG and after getting all the sets in I'm considering removing stam altogether. Then I remember telekinesis. So a base 3 end per second toggle is the only thing that's making me keep stamina. This character is so nerfed.
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Originally Posted by Jorlain
i just finished leveling my new Mind/NRG and after getting all the sets in I'm considering removing stam altogether. Then I remember telekinesis. So a base 3 end per second toggle is the only thing that's making me keep stamina. This character is so nerfed.
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Thats "your" experience. You admittedly are playing your "new" dominator. Negating the experience of old dom players who are unhappy with the changes based on the "new" dominator experience is a bit rude and egocentric. I am glad players are enjoying "new" doms but ask that they have a modicrum of empathy regarding the perspective of old dom players who have experienced more than hiccups in their playstyle. Who have been forced to adopt a totally different playstyle if they want to continue to play dominators. The whole feel of the archetype has changed. You all won.. at least be graceful and quit gloating.
I am tempted to ask what you'll do with that FOTM mind//energy after you get your *** handed to ya a few times in a zone or arena.... I shall refrain.
wow, how is southern comfort not on my forum ignore list? Did they wipe those with the forum migration?
They did. It can be a good opportunity to see if people have changed in their posting habits over time, you know?
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Originally Posted by Jorlain
wow, how is southern comfort not on my forum ignore list? Did they wipe those with the forum migration?
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
They did. It can be a good opportunity to see if people have changed in their posting habits over time, you know?
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Thank you two very much for posting points of nothing other than to distract attention from the subject at hand.
The Op is unhappy with the buff and looking for a happy medium. He//she went as far as to suggest a solution.
" We are nothing but the sum of our experience and actions"- James Lee Burke
Dominators play differently now. It's clunky and choppy. I don't like that at all and agree with the Op that some sort of a rework is due to bring back the feel of the dominator to be played as the archetype was originally intended.Something.The only place dom's actually got a buff was in the nonexistant realm of pvp. Even there ( with the miniscule population) all you see are mind// whatever dominators.
I don't care if I am the most abhorred poster on the dominator boards. The changes are a load of ******** to any dominator player that's been around since Cov's release.I will state that opinion based on play experience until my subs run out. OO heres a nice link for dom players from one of the biggest loudmouths on the forums that doesnt get how to play ANY archetype much less a dom
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=185027
All I have to say to that particular thread is 'Duh".
I'd do another link of Lillicae soloing AV's in 80 minutes but that ones right on the first page for anyone to find.
1. If it takes 80 minutes why do it?
2. Thank you to all the idiots that THOUGHT they knew dominator's who were on Castle's pannel of the "select few" who gave input for dom changes.
3. Good job y'all!!
Op ? Say what you want based on your play experience and don't let the forum fanbois detour you.
I will add a final point. Based on THIS thread
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=143752
All my dominators currently do 11% less damage than they did prebuff. In addition it takes more end to run them and the rech on some powers has skewed their attack chains quite noticeably. There was a post from Castle in this thread a week ago stating "Good thread ,DC" and its been deleted. Why? I suppose becuase he figured out that praising the info in the thread basically made him look silly. I mean 'TY for showing the adjustments I made are actually detrimental" is a bad thing to endorse,huh?
The changes were employed to help the archetype be more user friendly to newer players. Thats fine. Please don't kid yourselves into thinking it was anything other than that. The fact that so many players get up in arms over a player that disagrees with the Mickey Mouse playstyle because they havent the imagination or wherewith all to have experienced the play of a TRUE dominator boggles me to no end. Whats the deal? You all couldnt be good so its just a given that those of us that could , even with all the disadvantages since release, pay a penalty so you think you have a 12 inch epeen?
C'mon people... that's ludicrous.
Quit knocking everyone that doesn't like the changes and get productive.
It's hard to see how this:
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can be read as this:| It can be quantified to around an average +11% boost in solo performance |
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| All my dominators currently do 11% less damage than they did prebuff. |
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It's hard to see how this:
can be read as this: You might want to re-read the thread you are citing. |
No I don't need to reread the thread. Those are his numbers bases on a nonperma dom vs. my numbers based on a perma2 with a perma 3 overlap of roughly 10 seconds.. Sorry if I was unclear.
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Frankly the damage is miniscule to me. 11% big woo.. I could easily pop a red in pve. The clunkiness and need for a respec to get them smoothe is what chaps my ***. I have played doms avidly since Cov's release. This misconception over their usefulness in teams and the need for a "revamp" in order to accomadate the 'casual player" that makes me required to respec" yet again" in order to play my characters to my standard also irritates me beyond all get out.
The people on these boards that think their way to play dominators is the only way because they apparantly cannot get the idea of mobility and game mechanic chaps my ***. Those players//posters inability to be objective about any player//poster that disagrees with them chaps my ***. Need I say more?
I am going to.
But not this evening.
Hey, SC,
You linked to the wrong thread of mine that Castle responded to. It's here. Castle's message (15th post) is still there as of tonight.
I'll be adding some more to it tomorrow I think (I have my mind/thorn and grav/elec data done, but I'm hoping to get the Earth/Fire complete as well), so don't make too strong of a conclusion yet. Some of the doms have improved a good deal. I think the main drag on the 11% number was from the lack of improvement by the fire/psi. However, read through my explanation for that and I think you'll see that I16 might very well make you happy about a fire/psi dom's prospects.
Please buff Ice Control.
I don't really care about fire//psi particularly. I care about all dominator's generally. I am fed up with the touted "Dom experts" here that can't even play dominators and advocate the dumbing down of the archetype and the ostracism of any poster//player that disagrees with their decree's.
Thank you for the correct link,D.C. I apologize if I misstyped(spoke). Another "Thank you" for taking the time to compile real player experience and real numbers. Plenty of people here pontificate. Few take the time to put it all together and ask W.I.I.F.M.
Thank you!
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This one post has earned me a null-rep, from someone who has rep disabled calling me and I think the person to whom I was responding 'threadjacking fanbois', negative rep from someone who thinks it has nothing to do with the thread (responding to a question as a part of topic drift?), and someone who wordlessly approves of my notifying people that the forum migration wiped people's ignore lists. I am amused.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
They did. It can be a good opportunity to see if people have changed in their posting habits over time, you know?
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As far as the OP's actual point goes, I didn't respond to it because he seems the sort to be unswayed by anything like a reasonable discussion. Should we go back over the arguments, with a room full of people telling a fringe individual who opens by insulting everyone that she doesn't speak for everyone? Because I don't see that as very fruitful.
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I'm new to dominators but this is where your argument falls flat on its face. Not everyone has billions to sink into builds for permadom and remember I hope so cause I have read it on these boards countless times "this game isn't balanced around IO's"
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Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort
No I don't need to reread the thread. Those are his numbers bases on a nonperma dom vs. my numbers based on a perma2 with a perma 3 overlap of roughly 10 seconds.. Sorry if I was unclear..
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No longer needing to live by hasten and keeping my auto fire on Domination, no longer needing to be in domination to feel worthy or helpful to a team, or double domination to do decent damage, not needing to pick powers that I will probably never use to get more recharge, being able to IO something other than recharge, noticing a damage increase with damage buffs, just a couple of thoughts that were on my mind when the change came, this was a buff in more ways than one.
As for you request for more AoE damage... denied, if you play a Dom to their full potential you will have all you need.
Fire/ - Imps and fire being the least resisted damage type in the game
Plant/ - Seeds, Creepers, and the most damaging AoE immb
Mind/ - self explainatory.
Ice/ - If played even moderately correctly mobs should only get off one shot off before they die (My Ice/ does not get touched and he has no passive defenses) and comes with a back up dominator.
Earth/ - Very high amounts of control and comes with a tank played correctly (as I have seen from many) you should not be touched (I think I seen this set hold an EB.
All but one set get a ranged cone, you get a PBAoE and a Targeted AoE, plus most primaries come with some sort of AoE damage, we come with way more AoE damage than most Stalkers, if you want more proc out your AoE immob.
As for your second request... denied
Take stamina and slot it, my Fire/Fire has stamina and still runs out of end.
Southern Comfort, you are speaking to a very small percentage. couple people on the forums can tell you about my two main permadoms, a Mind/Energy and a Fire/Psy and in order to get them perma I had to sacrifice some damage and in order to make up for the damage I had to get more recharge so I could double stack dom longer for more damage, I would say that the changes were for the better, it huge amounts of money and merits to get my Fire/Psy to a decent damage level, the average player shouldn't have to do that to get an effective toon, the toon should be effective with SO's. I had no problem with Doms as they were as my Ice/Ice dom made it to 50 with SO's, however, My Earth/Fire had a much easier trip and shorter too.
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SC, these are your words| Frankly the damage is miniscule to me. 11% big woo.. I could easily pop a red in pve. |
Think about it, it ain't just 11%, that is 11% without an investment of plenty IOs to get you were you need to be. Also just to note, once my new dom pops the same red I am way above your damage and you are just equaling my base.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
The facts are, Energy Assault, Fire Assault and Psi Assault recieved much higher End costs due to their individual attacks doing more damage per hit. Psi Assault particularly got nerfed because Psi Shockwave was reduced considerably in power. To restore the End cost would mean reducing Energy Assault's damage, making it perform the way it used to under permadom, and would be impossible for Psi Assault. PSW is unlikely to be put back before pre-nerf levels, that's just not possible.
Elecrtic Assault actually uses much less End now that it did previously. My own Electric Dom pretty much doesn't use End any more, I have yet to reslot him for the new stats. My Fire Dom was never a permadom, so I don't see any disadvantages, all I am doing is better. I'm sorry that double and triple permadom was nerfed, but if I am doing as well as I am with just regular Domination, then any Dom should still be playable. The only reason for abandoning the character is you are disappointed at not doing so much better like you were previously.
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Um, no, it doesn't work that way.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The facts are, Energy Assault, Fire Assault and Psi Assault recieved much higher End costs due to their individual attacks doing more damage per activation time.
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Some individual attacks had their damage scaled up - in fire assault, the big victim was Combustion. As per the formula, those attacks also had their recharge time and endurance costs scaled up. As far as I can tell off the notes taken during that time, DPA was not a factor.
Now, I don't have perfect notes on the matter, but the statement could be more accurately demonstrated as: Energy Assault and Fire Assault had some attacks receive higher endurance costs due to those attacks also being given increased damage. I'm not sure if that's wholly accurate in the context of Combustion - it's entirely possible that Combustion just stood still, and I'm sure there are other, more hardcore /Fire enthusiasts who can offer up the correct information.
But these were not given 'much higher end costs' to compensate for some DPA strength. Several attacks in all sets were increased in their damage output, with a commensurate increase in endurance costs and recharge values.
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I'm sorry, what I meant to say was "Energy Assault, Fire Assault and Psi Assault recieved much higher End costs due to their individual attacks doing more damage per activation". The word "time" slipped in there due to it coming up as a phrase so often. |
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Um, no, it doesn't work that way.
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I was trying to clarify that I was speaking in terms of base damage scale of the attack, relative to its End cost and recharge. This is not damage per activation time or damage per recharge time. I ended up saying exactly the opposite.
I hope you don't mind my editing it to be more clear.Now, my statement is true, in that those attacks DO have greater DPA (as they have more damage within the unchanged activation time) and they also have greater Endurance cost. (because the End cost was increased as well) However, the direct connection is between damage scale and Endurance, not DPA and Endurance.
Flares actually has decreased damage scale, increased Endurance cost, and increased recharge time. It fits the formula now, but did not fit it previously unless you assume the extra 30% damage was the Fire secondary effect. Combustion likewise, less damage scale, increased Endurance cost, increased recharge time. It appears to have previously had more damage (due to Fire secondary effect) and less End cost (maybe due to it's long DoT duration) than it does now.
Play an /nrg dom, that is the only secondary that is noticeably better ime. The rest are either a bit better or a bit worse depending on build and playstyle.
Forgive me but without running hero stats very few players will be able to feel a ~10% net difference in either direction. IMO if you require analytical data to determine an improvement then the changes were a failure. Casual players don't use outside programs to analyze their playtime.
What you can feel is needing more attacks to have an attack chain though. For my /fire I used to be able to just spam blaze>blast>incinerate with what I consider to be pretty low recharge (I'm just barely a perma dom). Now I needed to shift some slots around to flush out flares as it is necessary (and a really crappy attack). So I lost perma dom until I buy some lotg's which has put me into endurance issues because 1% off of perma dom is a massive hit to the endurance refill timer and has cost me a lot of team control (mainly domination + stalagmites pwning everything in sight).
On hero stats my st dps has dropped considerably, but that is almost entirely because flares is just so bad in the role of spammed attack compared to old fireblast.
If I had to equate new vs old doms I would say that old doms were like old pvp - fast, fluid, and very exciting, but also very challenging and yes quirky. New doms are like new pvp - slow, clunky, and not nearly as exciting, but also much "easier" to use. I guess I shouldn't be surprised; both systems were done by the same person 
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The changes weren't meant to effect permadom. The changes were meant to effect those players that did not want to have or had not yet achieved permadom. Casual players... don't really have permadom. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Forgive me but without running hero stats very few players will be able to feel a ~10% net difference in either direction. IMO if you require analytical data to determine an improvement then the changes were a failure. Casual players don't use outside programs to analyze their playtime.
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I wouldn't expect anyone who had permadom, who had achieved that level of performance, to see any significant difference. It's the people who aren't through with their Doms yet that will be effected, that's what the devs were aiming for. They were trying to get it so the endpoint once you reached 50 was the same, but it kind of missed in some places. Maybe some of those misses will be shaken out in the future. (Then again, maybe not.
)What Dominators really need is individual attention to the Assault Sets. The OP's suggestions are fine, but he's treating all Doms as if they have End problems, when some have no problems with End or are even better. I'm sure no one will agree to sacrificing how great Energy Assault is now, just to get the old End costs back, or to get rid of the "clunkiness".
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We can pretend I don't play non-perma doms if you like.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The changes weren't meant to effect permadom. The changes were meant to effect those players that did not want to have or had not yet achieved permadom. Casual players... don't really have permadom.
I wouldn't expect anyone who had permadom, who had achieved that level of performance, to see any significant difference. It's the people who aren't through with their Doms yet that will be effected, that's what the devs were aiming for. They were trying to get it so the endpoint once you reached 50 was the same, but it kind of missed in some places. Maybe some of those misses will be shaken out in the future. (Then again, maybe not. )What Dominators really need is individual attention to the Assault Sets. The OP's suggestions are fine, but he's treating all Doms as if they have End problems, when some have no problems with End or are even better. I'm sure no one will agree to sacrificing how great Energy Assault is now, just to get the old End costs back, or to get rid of the "clunkiness". |
I see high recharge needed to fill attack chains and domination as necessary as ever to fuel the higher endurance consumption rate.
Of my 5 doms between lvl 20 and 50 I feel as much or more pressure than ever to seek perma dom regardless of whether my performance relative to i14 will be better, worse, or the same.
I can only recite my personal experience, but what now feels "clunky" under moderate recharge (barely perma dom) and even higher doesn't magically feel smooth with substantially less recharge.
I agree doms need individual set attention, I've said that for a long time. In fact they needed it before global changes, but late is better than never. They also need primary set attention. I personally have a hard time calling i15 a dominator revamp when only one primary power was changed
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Not really. I don't really have any trouble managing my Endurance on any of my Doms. In fact, as I have said, I'm going to have to remove End management from my Electric Dom because he never runs out of any Endurance. And I don't really have his attacks slotted for that much End, I have Stamina 3-slotted, but except for the occasional End slot in my control powers, I don't know where I'm going to take it from. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I see high recharge needed to fill attack chains and domination as necessary as ever to fuel the higher endurance consumption rate.
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So if you're not noticing a huge amount of additional damage when you are not in Domination, and not finding your Domination bar fill up just about the time you need it for more Endurance, well, all I can say is I am. On my Fire Dom. I don't know what to say, except that maybe it's the fact that you feel you have to spam attacks and keep your attack chain going all the time. (Even with bugged powers like Flares) I rarely have foes last that long in combat against me, but maybe you do need more End slotting than me.
You yourself say it's easier, so I'm guessing you're killing faster. You just don't like the "feel" of it. With Fire I can understand that, I've always avoided Flares, so to me Fire has always been a little clunky. But I'm not happy with Fire. I put up with it, honestly, Fire is still getting extra damage no other set gets, so it's efficient, and there's no looking down on Fiery Embrace. But there's still no word on Flares. I'd be happy with a +15% damage secondary effect, but I don't know if we're going to get it.
I don't want to complain about the latest Dominator "buff", since that doesn't seem to do much anyways.
My 2 main issue's with Dom's are...
1.) The complete lack of AOE DMG (Due to no dmg buff, and increased recharge)
2.) The end use
I don't disagree with the fact that certain powersets on doms were overpowered. But, I do disagree that even though they were overpowered there was a hero conterpart to match them. I may be crazy but i thought of some things that sounded like they may be beneficial to dominators. They are...
1.) Either add a smaller dmg buff with domination, or Add a containment aspect to it while it is up. Similar to controlers. Maybe instead of doing double damage it could be half on top of what is being done.
2.) Decrease the end costs of the powers back to pre i15
A few of my friends thought this sound pretty cool, lemme know what everyone thinks!