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Oh, definately. Even Castle himself said that "minimal impact" meant no more and no less than what it said. It wasn't a promise that things wouldn't change, only he would try to make such changes have as little effect as possible. |
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I was more interpreting this as not minimal impact for those permadoms who had enough recharge to 2x-3x stack the dom dmg boost. For them, they got nerfed and they're not happy.
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And I don't think he meant to apply it to double and triple dom. He was talking about single permadom specifically. He was very clear that double Dom would get nerfed, although he felt the ability to buff damage and the raise of the damage cap would compensate for that.
I don't expect the double and triple doms to be happy, but that's even a level of performance that makes the permadoms look bad.
And I think team buffs really do make a Dom do a lot more damage now.
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I've already stated what my experience with Dominators is. If it's not good enough that I've never tried to achieve permadom, you're welcome to believe whatever you want. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'm starting to wonder if you have ever played dominators, or are just chiming in?
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As for making chains on very few attacks, especially the lowest damage ones, that will DEFINATELY reduce your damage output. Dramatically. The majority of chain DPS comes from your most powerful attacks. So if you were making do on Domination to boost the damage of three or four basic attacks, you weren't doing as much damage as you could.
If you're playing Fire the same way, it's no wonder you're having Endurance problems. It's all getting back to Flares again. It's broken, it has less damage and more recharge. So you're not getting the damage for your End cost.
Do you play your Brutes or Scrappers like this?
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| Finally, where are you getting lvl 20 by? I just searched the thread and where you pulled that number from is a mystery. I'm getting the feeling it is from the same area as everything you are saying. |
Are you saying that the 35 number is for /Energy only? Or is it only /Energy would be that cheap?
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FWIW, the problem I have with SR is not that every power in the set is valuable and worthwhile, but that the set as a whole takes 7 powers distributed across 35 levels to get modestly better survivability that /FA gets in three powers by 16. And by that token, if /energy's biggest draw was that most of its powers were terrible so you might as well slot them for +rech sets because they weren't any use otherwise, that's not exactly what I'd call appealing - and the fact that due to the way Domination worked, that was actually a better plan than choosing a set with good powers and slotting them for their intended purpose, I consider to be the very epitome of everything that was screwed up about Dominators.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
People say they want every power in a set to be valuable and worthwhile, but then they complain about how tight sets like /sr are.
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Also: loving something because it is so broken that only a genius can figure out how to make it work is the very essence of elitism, and the source of much irritation when I am forced to use tools that remain badly designed because the existing userbase will not accept changes intended for "the masses". I don't need that in my entertainment, and I really don't care for the attitude that figuring out how to bash a broken tool into a usable shape makes you a smarter person than someone who passes it over because it's broken.
I think I just killed civil conversation to make my point clear, and for that I am genuinely sorry.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Oh, now I don't want to say that. I'm not trying to make it seem like I don't understand the appeal of min/maxing a build and the challenge that it can make for you. I do understand that, very much. But there's a difference between coming up with a clever build, and compensating for weaknesses and mistaking it for the intended class design. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Also: loving something because it is so broken that only a genius can figure out how to make it work is the very essence of elitism,
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Putting it another way, there is the usual quote "This game was not balanced around IOs".
Frosticus wanted to know if I didn't understand him, and I have to say I had no idea that was what was being discussed. Fast recharge, fluid chaining yes, but I did not have the whole picture. I can see the logic in it, (for one thing, it reminds me of Brutes using their weak attacks to build Fury) but it's certainly not what I would have tried or even thought of.
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| I think I just killed civil conversation to make my point clear, and for that I am genuinely sorry. |
Honestly, it's hard to make it sound like this is turning into powergamers vs casual players, but sometimes you've just got to put it out there to say, "Let's not go there. Let's respect what the other has accomplished."
Some of the most ferocious build optimization I've seen on the boards is on the Scrapper forum - and that's an AT notorious for being idiot proof.
Dominators were also known for ferocious build optimization, but it was all in one direction: maximizing recharge to get the most out of a quirk of their inherent, and in many cases maximizing the utility of one horribly imbalanced power in one set.
You don't have to make an AT broken as designed to make it an interesting challenge for min/maxers, and that seems to be the guiding principle of a lot of the recent AT and power changes. I actually agree that popularity is not a good design goal; it is, instead, a side effect of designing for good base utility in addition to high maximum potential. And it's my personal opinion that the maximum potential of revamped Doms has barely been scratched, given that DarkCurrent's recent tests post positive results for builds that weren't changed at all from their pre-revamp iterations.
I wonder if I should go ask about my Dom build on the Scrapper forums...
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
To be clear: I have a great deal of respect for whoever first figured out Permadom, and to those who worked out how to do it cheaply and/or effectively on many characters - and a lot less respect for those who advocated for the preservation the design of Dominators and Domination. Macgyvering up a solution is ingenious; insisting that something isn't flawed because it can be worked around and even exploited leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
And it's not just Doms that this applies to - I had the same reaction to EM/Nin stalkers, high-power Warshade builds, and Poison Gas Trap procbombs...
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Yeah, I think you can probably squeeze another 5-10% performance upgrade out of the doms I was testing. So for me, that'd increase their performance upwards of 20% from pre-I15 status.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Some of the most ferocious build optimization I've seen on the boards is on the Scrapper forum - and that's an AT notorious for being idiot proof.
Dominators were also known for ferocious build optimization, but it was all in one direction: maximizing recharge to get the most out of a quirk of their inherent, and in many cases maximizing the utility of one horribly imbalanced power in one set. You don't have to make an AT broken as designed to make it an interesting challenge for min/maxers, and that seems to be the guiding principle of a lot of the recent AT and power changes. I actually agree that popularity is not a good design goal; it is, instead, a side effect of designing for good base utility in addition to high maximum potential. And it's my personal opinion that the maximum potential of revamped Doms has barely been scratched, given that DarkCurrent's recent tests post positive results for builds that weren't changed at all from their pre-revamp iterations. I wonder if I should go ask about my Dom build on the Scrapper forums... |
Prior to I15, I can say with confidence that my average doms already outperformed my average corruptors as far as infamy earning went. And they were nearly the equal of my average brutes although there were only 2, both of which are AoE heavy. I only tested one MM, and he was slow. I haven't tested stalkers at all, but I don't see how one could outdo a dom in the scenarios I worked with.
So from my perspective, the AT has gotten stronger with the revamp. I just don't know if it's going to make a difference in regard to popularity. I haven't seen a huge difference there after a couple months of the revamp. But redside as a whole seems to be slowly but surely losing numbers. I blame that on lack of exclusive content. All we've had since release is Grandville lvl 40+. Everything else has been shared and/or cooperative. All the new plots Paragon City centered (RWZ, Midnighters vs Rikti, 5th column return) and are hammered into the CoV storyline as seeming afterthoughts. The CoV storyline itself has advanced zero since launch. Shouldn't Recluse give up on the Destiny Project by now? And why are villains still cow-towing to that guy? Why do villains need to live in the Rogue Isles anyway? Shouldn't we be taking over the gangs and thugs of Paragon by now?
Which leads to the million dollar question: why should someone start playing dominators even with the buff? If they've already exhausted redside content with their brutes, cors, and MMs, what's there to do?
I think new powersets help, but you still run the same 50 lvls of content. I was hoping AE would spice things up, but that's degraded into a pile of farms and broad ranged missions that are either way too hard or way to easy. Maybe GR will change things, but I think that's where the whole Dom vs Controller viability issue comes to play? Both ATs offer primary control. One has dmg as 2nd and the other buffs. Which will appeal more to the new player that's bound to pick up the game when GR launches? And how does control compare to the other foci of the other ATs?
Please buff Ice Control.
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I think that's the thing. Redside content may have stagnated, but we've got a whole new world of content for villains to explore. Plus the possibility of Reformed villains continuing to make use of the blueside content. In that respect, Dominators need to be capable of supporting more interest, especially when compared to Controllers, which have the reputation of being damage dealers as well as crowd controllers and buffers.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Maybe GR will change things, but I think that's where the whole Dom vs Controller viability issue comes to play? Both ATs offer primary control. One has dmg as 2nd and the other buffs. Which will appeal more to the new player that's bound to pick up the game when GR launches? And how does control compare to the other foci of the other ATs?
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It's not a case of popularity. It's a case of when a new player comes to you and says, "I'd like to try control, but I still want to deal damage", do you want to answer "play a Dominator" or do you want to answer "play a Controller"?
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Aye there's the rub!| Maybe GR will change things, but I think that's where the whole Dom vs Controller viability issue comes to play? Both ATs offer primary control. One has dmg as 2nd and the other buffs. Which will appeal more to the new player that's bound to pick up the game when GR launches? And how does control compare to the other foci of the other ATs? |
Sorry to chime in rather randomly, but I think this right here may shine some light on something.
When we (the players) look at things that are given to us we look at them in the here and now, meanwhile the Devs have to look at them for the whole picture (the now and the future). Just because something functions this way now (in the grand scheme of things) doesn't mean that it will necessarily be the same later on.
While Dom popularity may not increase a whole lot right now (seems like redside population is even lower then before), we may see a huge increase in Dom popularity once GR is out. I know I personally can't stand controller's not because I don't like control, I don't like buffing/debuffing, so a Dominator is the perfect AT for me to play, however I just can't get into playing redside, so for me a Hero Dom will be even more perfect for me. YMMV, but I think we need to see the whole thing revealed before we can make any hard judgements about the effect one way or another of success. (You can talk til you're blue in the face about the hard numbers of the changes to powers however).
Active 50s:
Zero Defex: DP/MM//Mace Blaster
Mutant X-7: Fire/MM//Mace Blaster
Running my Kin/EA gloriously
Come on I21!!!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
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Originally Posted by MutantX_7
Aye there's the rub!
Sorry to chime in rather randomly, but I think this right here may shine some light on something. When we (the players) look at things that are given to us we look at them in the here and now, meanwhile the Devs have to look at them for the whole picture (the now and the future). Just because something functions this way now (in the grand scheme of things) doesn't mean that it will necessarily be the same later on. While Dom popularity may not increase a whole lot right now (seems like redside population is even lower then before), we may see a huge increase in Dom popularity once GR is out. I know I personally can't stand controller's not because I don't like control, I don't like buffing/debuffing, so a Dominator is the perfect AT for me to play, however I just can't get into playing redside, so for me a Hero Dom will be even more perfect for me. YMMV, but I think we need to see the whole thing revealed before we can make any hard judgements about the effect one way or another of success. (You can talk til you're blue in the face about the hard numbers of the changes to powers however). |
I have been here since release for both COH and COV. Your sunnyside view of " we need to see the big picture and have faith" is lost on me . I've had faith for 5 ******* years only to see everything I enjoy playing systematically torn down and homogenized.I have stuck around for five ******* years having "faith". At the same time watching the forum loudmouths get their way.. AGAIN, AGAIN, and AGAIN.
The thing the devs don't realize is the selfsame players they penalize with EVERY nerf ( whether it be to an AT or an ACTIVITY) are the players that keep this game going by promoting community functions that a "casual" couldn't even begin to fathom organizing.
I am aveteran player and clearly not "casual". I am also a player in the minority because I min/max ANY build I create( not just dominators).I am in the minority as well because my voice of dissention and protest to the decisions on game mechanic are overridden by the "casual".My play style is considered" elitist" therefore my opinion or game play experience does not matter. The opinions and play experience of people with half the playtime logged as myself or my gaming friends is not relevant because we at one point enjoyed pvp, we DID BASE RAIDS, WE RAN EVERY TF//SF/TRIAL in this game so fast the casual player didn't know how the hell we did it or what the hell we did. What happened? Massive cries for " the game needs balance!!" from players that didnt have the cognitive ability to figure out a game or the time to invest in resaearching builds or encounters. What else happenned? ANyone with a brain gets nerfed and the encounters beyond the comprehension of the "casual" player get removed. Why do you all think the blatant activities in AE are allowed? Because the majority of players with a brain that gave a ratsass about fast lvls or gear quit doing the activities to acquire altogether. The devs had to throw all the newies something or suffer a loss.There arent alot of people around anymore that run game content for gain much less take the time to teach new players the score and whats needed for 200 merits in under 2.5 hours. So the devs threw the newies and "casuals" a bone with AE.
Sorry but I am not waiting around for the big picture AGAIN.I know many others that arent either. Nothing short of THE BIG RED BALL and server wide instanced pvp like they have in CO would keep me around. I am a small loss. Every person has a network. Every person in the network has a network. Eventually the new subs won't be able to keep up with the friends of the friend that unsubbed.Especially with new games on thehorizon.
You all can sit here and suggest about dom's til your blue in the face.One reason the revamp didn't work out as planned is because the earlier dominator buffs were completely overlooked in the initial buff formula.I mean c'mon people dom damage buffs on a team was already scaled to increase based on team number. OOOps they forgot about that and didnt factor it in at the initial buff release and subsequently took it out in a patch a few weeks later but labeled the change as a pvp change in patch notes. Another thing I find funny is not one person following the Castle fanclub that published damage tables even factored that modifier in.Why? Because most likely noone making tables was even aware that particular little mechanic existed.THEY are all new dom players or people that wanted to play a dom"maybe" and saw an opportunity to chime in and feel important in a game.
Sorry to be so longwinded. Sorry I don't agree with much posted on the boards anymore. Frosticus? Jade Dragon is never going to shaddup no matter how succintly you counter him//her. Why? Because every time you type he//she gets the wrong point because he//she hasn't played doms or any AT like you have. Therefore you need to REALLY back up when explaining so you two are both on the same page. No offense, Jade. In addition , if you type something not fathomable by experience then you'll get others like WeatherbyGood etc. etc. etc. showing up just to muddie the waters with nonensicle vituperative language for ***** and grins because EVERYONE has an opinion.Good luck. Have fun!
/rant over
P.S. That whole idea of have faith for a later explaination from the devs really chapped my ***.
I apologize. Carry on Dom forums and keep on doing whatever the hell it is you do in game now
Ditzy, this attitude is pretty much classic elitism. It's exclusionary.
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Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort
I have been here since release for both COH and COV. Your sunnyside view of " we need to see the big picture and have faith" is lost on me . I've had faith for 5 ******* years only to see everything I enjoy playing systematically torn down and homogenized.I have stuck around for five ******* years having "faith". At the same time watching the forum loudmouths get their way.. AGAIN, AGAIN, and AGAIN.
The thing the devs don't realize is the selfsame players they penalize with EVERY nerf ( whether it be to an AT or an ACTIVITY) are the players that keep this game going by promoting community functions that a "casual" couldn't even begin to fathom organizing. I am aveteran player and clearly not "casual". I am also a player in the minority because I min/max ANY build I create( not just dominators).I am in the minority as well because my voice of dissention and protest to the decisions on game mechanic are overridden by the "casual".My play style is considered" elitist" therefore my opinion or game play experience does not matter. The opinions and play experience of people with half the playtime logged as myself or my gaming friends is not relevant because we at one point enjoyed pvp, we DID BASE RAIDS, WE RAN EVERY TF//SF/TRIAL in this game so fast the casual player didn't know how the hell we did it or what the hell we did. What happened? Massive cries for " the game needs balance!!" from players that didnt have the cognitive ability to figure out a game or the time to invest in resaearching builds or encounters. What else happenned? ANyone with a brain gets nerfed and the encounters beyond the comprehension of the "casual" player get removed. Why do you all think the blatant activities in AE are allowed? Because the majority of players with a brain that gave a ratsass about fast lvls or gear quit doing the activities to acquire altogether. The devs had to throw all the newies something or suffer a loss.There arent alot of people around anymore that run game content for gain much less take the time to teach new players the score and whats needed for 200 merits in under 2.5 hours. So the devs threw the newies and "casuals" a bone with AE. Sorry but I am not waiting around for the big picture AGAIN.I know many others that arent either. Nothing short of THE BIG RED BALL and server wide instanced pvp like they have in CO would keep me around. I am a small loss. Every person has a network. Every person in the network has a network. Eventually the new subs won't be able to keep up with the friends of the friend that unsubbed.Especially with new games on thehorizon. You all can sit here and suggest about dom's til your blue in the face.One reason the revamp didn't work out as planned is because the earlier dominator buffs were completely overlooked in the initial buff formula.I mean c'mon people dom damage buffs on a team was already scaled to increase based on team number. OOOps they forgot about that and didnt factor it in at the initial buff release and subsequently took it out in a patch a few weeks later but labeled the change as a pvp change in patch notes. Another thing I find funny is not one person following the Castle fanclub that published damage tables even factored that modifier in.Why? Because most likely noone making tables was even aware that particular little mechanic existed.THEY are all new dom players or people that wanted to play a dom"maybe" and saw an opportunity to chime in and feel important in a game. Sorry to be so longwinded. Sorry I don't agree with much posted on the boards anymore. Frosticus? Jade Dragon is never going to shaddup no matter how succintly you counter him//her. Why? Because every time you type he//she gets the wrong point because he//she hasn't played doms or any AT like you have. Therefore you need to REALLY back up when explaining so you two are both on the same page. No offense, Jade. In addition , if you type something not fathomable by experience then you'll get others like WeatherbyGood etc. etc. etc. showing up just to muddie the waters with nonensicle vituperative language for ***** and grins because EVERYONE has an opinion.Good luck. Have fun! /rant over P.S. That whole idea of have faith for a later explaination from the devs really chapped my ***. I apologize. Carry on Dom forums and keep on doing whatever the hell it is you do in game now |
Wait, doms damage modifier was originally scaled by the number of team members? That's ******* awesome, I want that back!
P.s. Congratulations on your red wing.
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It's also falsely self-martyred. I don't see Ditzy crusading to rollback buffs to Moment of Glory, buffs to Temperature protection, buffs to Dark Melee, buffs to melee damage ranges, etcetera, etcetera.|
Originally Posted by MinMin
Ditzy, this attitude is pretty much classic elitism. It's exclusionary.
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Fact is, it's only homogenization and bad when it pulls something back from being overpowered.
And if someone spends five years doing something they seem to hate, it tells me what they really like is complaining.
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I liked old mog, but the lack of buff canceling made it generally last too long. I don't see that as a problem with MoG necessarily and more a weakness of the entire game. You were generally very safe with it running, but the low hp gave you an edge of the seat feeling that only /fire armor is able reproduce (albeit in a different way). Granted very few players want that kind of "excitement" in this game.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
It's also falsely self-martyred. I don't see Ditzy crusading to rollback buffs to Moment of Glory, buffs to Temperature protection, buffs to Dark Melee, buffs to melee damage ranges, etcetera, etcetera.
Fact is, it's only homogenization and bad when it pulls something back from being overpowered. And if someone spends five years doing something they seem to hate, it tells me what they really like is complaining. |
Temp protection is still skipped by pretty much everyone even though if you stack it with the winter's gift it does a nice job of helping fire with its main weakness. Alone, it is very meh.
Melee range was a QoL adjustment because at 5ft is was often very finicky to outright unplayable in the event of lag (which is admittedly rare in CoX... haha).
I argued that changing siphon life to a true attack, but with a free heal is unfair... and they made it cycle faster. MG, a nice QoL change, but why only MG, why not incinerate, or combustion, or irradiate, gloom, NF, TT, or all the st immobs? It would seem to me that if upfront damage is that important it would remain consistently important to players and set balancing. I am against making everything the same, always have been, but as soon as you start going down that path you may as well just do everything.
I think it is pretty clear that the current power's team balances purely by spreadsheets. I don't agree with that at all as ultimately excel can only get you so far, but I can accept that it is occurring. However, it then makes inconsistencies look like sloppy work rather than uniqueness - especially when every single change being made removes inconsistencies. Or variation if you will.
I mean people are currently criticizing CO for making each tier of attacks so similar and these are people that play this game lol. It is exactly that way here too except you can't pick and choose. Take scrappers for instance, the only really unique set is spines and Castle has said in the past that something like that set would never happen again and he'd change a lot of it eventually. Any guesses how he'd change it?
I don't agree with Castle's (or Posi, whoever is making the decisions) vision of balance or fun. And while I've still been enjoying this game it seems that as each issue goes by he sinks his claws into something else I enjoy and sucks the fun right out of it. So far i16 sounds good, I don't really care about power tinting, but dynamic team size adjusting sounds really good. But I'm worried about the round of powers adjustments (nerfs, buffs, changes) that comes out shortly after each issue because ultimately combat is 99% of this game. I'm not worried because I want a static game, or can't handle change, I'm worried because I'll likely completely disagree about how and why the changes occur.
Very few power changes that have occurred in the last 2? years have been the way I'd do them. They have always just been the absolute shortest way to make them perform within the accepted range while consistently reducing the scope of said range. But I don't make the decisions lol and I have no guarantee that my ideas would be more fun that what has been done. Although I don't see how they could be less fun
Anyway, keep on dominating everyone. I hope to join the ranks again with earth assault. Pl it up to 29 where it looks playable and have some fun.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
It's also falsely self-martyred. I don't see Ditzy crusading to rollback buffs to Moment of Glory, buffs to Temperature protection, buffs to Dark Melee, buffs to melee damage ranges, etcetera, etcetera.
Fact is, it's only homogenization and bad when it pulls something back from being overpowered. And if someone spends five years doing something they seem to hate, it tells me what they really like is complaining. |
This from the fella that threw a little hissy fit over his negative forum rep. Waaa.. waaa.
I'll answer your assumption regarding 5 years of self matrydom simply because most of your posts tell me you like to make ASSumptions that are typically incorrect whether in focusing on an individual player or matters to do with the game dynamic,Talen. In short, I very much enjoyed COH for many years. Lately it's a bit more difficult to see through "rose colored glasses" everytime any ingame issue is addressed.You are so far off the mark it's absolutely ludicrous.What else is new?
I expressed my playing experience and my opinion as any player has the right to do. Whether or not said experience and opinion are in accordance with the "popular" flavor on the boards at this time is irrelevant.
Anyway!! Cheers to past , present and future dominator's! Fight the good fight and have much fun
!
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You'll need to give a reference for an outrageous claim like this.|
Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort
the earlier dominator buffs were completely overlooked in the initial buff formula.I mean c'mon people dom damage buffs on a team was already scaled to increase based on team number. OOOps they forgot about that and didnt factor it in at the initial buff release and subsequently took it out in a patch a few weeks later but labeled the change as a pvp change in patch notes. Another thing I find funny is not one person following the Castle fanclub that published damage tables even factored that modifier in.Why? Because most likely noone making tables was even aware that particular little mechanic existed.
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The only thing that changes with team size is how quickly the domination bar fills, and that's still there. Dominators were getting a bonus in PvP to account for the fact that the Domination buff could be difficult to leverage. This bonus was not a damage buff, it was built into the powers.
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Originally Posted by Liliaceae
You'll need to give a reference for an outrageous claim like this.
The only thing that changes with team size is how quickly the domination bar fills, and that's still there. Dominators were getting a bonus in PvP to account for the fact that the Domination buff could be difficult to leverage. This bonus was not a damage buff, it was built into the powers. |
Wish I could ,Lilli. Unfortunately all of that has been purged. You could likely still find it in patch notes or even that thread that was in this forums accidently. Remember that thread? You complained that it was still listed here yet the "Dominator Issue" thread you compiled somehow didnt make the forum migration.
Either way I don't give a good ******* anymore and am not going to spend time digging for things that have been erased or lost. I was here. I played it. So were you. I know what was and what was not. I have absolutely nothing to prove.
You can pick my statement apart all you like in typical forumite fashion. Fact is that the work the dev's had previously done on dominator's to bring them up to par was embraced by the revamp and then discarded with noone the wiser.You sort of amaze me,Lilli. You have been here almost as long as I.I don't buy into you weren't aware of what the earlier dom fix entailed.You know? That one almost a few years before the revamp and the removal of the "Jekyl //Hyde" feel. Kinna hard to miss that booger,huh?
I find your amnesia reprehensible. I find the fact that you advocated the absolute, complete nuances of the old dom playstyle changed disgusting. Pot meet kettle.
Anyho.. this conversation was more likely something for private pm's rather than a thread in a forum.
If the changes eventually are positive for the longevity of dominator players in the game then mission accomplished.I hope that is the case. Carry on and have fun no matter what AT you play
P.S. Outrageous claim my ***.
I've been with CoV since day one, and I was around as well. I do not recall any damage scaling with team size ever making it to live. Ever. About the only damage scaling I'm aware of is the faster building of Domination while on a team, enabling you to have the Domination damage boost for longer.
So you can throw "reprehensible" and you can throw "outrageous", but quite frankly I'm seeing a heavy dose of crazy eyes here.
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That rather assumes that Ditzy plays something other than Doms, eh?|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
It's also falsely self-martyred. I don't see Ditzy crusading to rollback buffs to Moment of Glory, buffs to Temperature protection, buffs to Dark Melee, buffs to melee damage ranges, etcetera, etcetera.
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[Oh, and since "buffs to melee damage ranges" were across the board, how did they contribute to homogenization?]
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Final post from me on this bs.... you all heave a collective sigh of relief
1. Personal popularity on the boards doesn't daunt me now and didn't daunt me 4 years running. Dream on.
2. I think it's great there are new typers on the boards and new players out there dominating!
That said:
I am going to do a conglemerative address in a few sentences, I hope.
I think a big problem on the dom boards is you have camp A and camp B with a sometimes camp C. I am not going to assign differentitations beyond A,B,C. I don't care to type a wall of text. Sorry.
I type as an A camp and expect the B and C guys to get my point because they played doms as long as I have and understand exactly what the hell I am pointing out.Fact is that so many of B and C require backtracking to even be on the same page that the limited time many campA posters has gets pretty much lost in frustration. In addition many old posters who in my opinion should be in camp A are in camps b and C as far as the "playing a dom " curve goes. Please refer to Lilli's above post regarding what team buff had to do with recharge. I know these fella's have good intentions. I now understand they just never "got it".
Dom damage buffs prior to revamp were easy to me and pretty straightup. The bigger your team the easier to hit dom1. The higher your recharge as a dominator and the bigger your team the easier to sustain Dom2 throughout the whole encounter.Add a /kin buff and sustain dom3 for a brief time and continually maintain DOM2 with a dom3 overlap throughout the whole encounter.When I stated dom's had a damage buff that surpassed the revamp in my prior post thats what I was referring to. With the revamp a consistent damge level of a perma 2 is not feasible beyong consistent damage buffs( ie: a /pain corr on the team or some other substitute for that thing).
Unfortunately I type based on my play experience. Even before I had my first permadom I knew what I was making. I knew her potential.I apologize for expecting the boards to have had that same experience.
Doms have been buffed in pvp to a small extent. Pvp is dying anyway but it was a rare scenario in that venue to maintain a consistent dom2 and 3 overlap prior to the revamp anyway. All anyone could consistently maintain was a dom1 and now doms get that out of the box.Small buff.
Dominator pve performance as far as flat out damage took a hit for any dominator built with minimum perma rech and accustommed to running with 5 other players.Doms with 212% rech in a team of 5 with a sb easily maintained perma2 the whole way through. Whether farming, , doing missions or doing sf'//trial's. Doms built with the minimum 150% maintained a perma1 with a 2 overlap.
I apologize for not being more clear.
This next parts for Hack's referring to maybe I only play dom's.
Kamikaze Kate sm//ela brute lvl 50
Druscilla Demonheart dm//fire brute lvl 50
Killer4hire ss//fire brute lvl 50
Southern Hottie sm//fire tank lvl 50
Femme Fatalle fire//psi dom lvl 50
Darkworld Thorn plant //thorn dom lvl 50
Forgotten Bride fire//fire dom lvl 50
Penelope Prissypants grav//ice dom lvl 50
Besa De Muerta em//regen stalker lvl 50
Clarisse dark//kin corr lvl 50
Southern Charmer ice//therm corr lvl 50
Cosmic Chill son//cold corr lvl 50
Georgia Peach elec//kin corr lvl 50
Southern Comfort elec//therm corr lvl 50
Fatal Flaire fire//kin troller lvl 50
Dolly Doom fire //rad troller lvl 50
Southern Sunshine fire//em blaster lvl50
I could list more but those are the ones I enjoyed playingthe most. I didnt even put in my defenders or scrappers.If I were really as elitist and hc as some intimate I'd list over 50 lvl50's by now.I know people that quad box and have 100's of 50's. Sorry.. all I ever did was dual box and this game isn't my life. That's why when things I enjoy get pulled out from under me over and over I get so irritated. OOoops*wink*.
You all need to lighten up and realize that in this game many times because you want things to be so does not make those things so. I think it's great if the revamp gets more people playing dominators. I am saddenned that the thing that I loved about dominators has been removed. I am saddenned that what was in the long run better than what is now and new dominators will NEVER KNOW what they missed. Yes.. I am pissed that a playstyle I enjoyed is now gone.
You would be too.
Promised this was the end and it is. Carry on doms and have a ton of fun ;D I do apologize for making peoples blood pressure surge. I HONESTLY relish the thought of Talen having a corranary reading the forums but thats a private fantasy!! Har!!
I think most poster's have good intent. Some do not but the dom boards has pretty much always been full of genuine individuals.Camps A,B,C make communication VERY hard. Have fun people! Namaste'. Namaste' means " the divine in me honors the divine in thee". Go. Play.Have fun!
Ditzy, this post is much clearer than previous ones. So, I agree that a Dominator with gobs of global recharge and no damage buffs performs worse today than they did previously. Especially if they were a high-level /Psi. I can understand and sympathise with anyone who played primarily in this mode.
However, my biggest confusion is that I believe all the sets with -Rech buffs also have +Dam buffs, so I'm having trouble imagining the scenario. Perhaps it's just /Kin bots that SB but don't FS.
The goal of popularity was never mine, because I already liked the AT. It turns out that the changes are a buff to the majority of my Dominators. (I have 1 perma /Psi, 3 other permas, 1 other +40 /Psi, and probably 20 others.) Most of the time there's no /Kin or /Rad on the team, and I don't think I've ever been on a team with two /Kins.
There have also been complaints about the changes to attack chains (Frosticus has raised these), but overall these don't affect me much. If my attack chain is a little awkward at times, I can cope with it for the rare enemy that takes more than a few attacks to finish off.
I think the changes are spot on with regard to improving the perception and popularity of the AT, because they are a buff in the vast majority of cases. It is an exceedingly rare player that would be able to take their Dominator to permanent double stacking of the Domination buff. Of course, a lot of this hinges on how you define popularity, and we'll never have the information we need to assess this.
Lili
Quote:
I am expecting Earth Assault to be one of the higher damage, higher recharge sets, possibly as high damage as the current Energy Assault. In other words, be prepared for it to be an End sink. I'm not saying you won't enjoy it, but Stone Melee is well known for being one of the higher End cost sets, so don't set yourself up for even more disappointment. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Anyway, keep on dominating everyone. I hope to join the ranks again with earth assault. Pl it up to 29 where it looks playable and have some fun.
|
Of course, Seismic Smash is also well known due to its low animation time, and it may result in really good chaining opportunities. I hope it does turn out good for you.
As for high level Recharge and Psi specifically, I don't think we can deny that that's been nerfed. Flares and Combustion as well, although I am still hopeful that was a mistake and we can see a reversal of it someday. The idea, though, was not that Dominators take advantage of a team through leverage of Domination, but to take advantage of them through the benefits those teammates brought to the team. That was not a reduction in damage, but a shift of the damage from something that the Dominator had to build with expensive IOs, to a boost to his base damage, where it could be buffed.
I still believe that change was the correct one, even though supposedly the damage is not as great now. I still haven't seen an analysis that compares the damage of a Dominator under old triple Dom, against a new Dominator buffed by Fulcrum Shift or damage debuffs from Rad or other sets. So such supposition is, as far as I've seen, still guesswork. It can be argued that on a team of eight, with no buffers on that team of eight, that the Dom won't do as much damage, but is that really being disputed?
Well the way I see it, Fissure should be a 10 second recharge because all the troller epic aoe's are set to double the base recharge of the prim/secondary versions of the powers they are pulled from.
ie fireball 16 sec, but 32 in epic form
frostbreath 16 sec, but 32 in epic from
icestorm 60 sec, but 120 sec in epic
energy torrent 12 sec, but you guessed it 24 sec in epic
the only current exception is psy nado which is 20 sec for all AT's including troller epic. I'd bug that personally.
If fissure isn't less than a 20 sec recharge then I'll be bugging it asap. And it should not have any lessening of base DS either. It should also cost less than 13 end too. Really fissure should probably be then new "old" psw (10 sec rech, ~10 end), but probably only do about ~50 base damage rather than the 70 that psw did and does.
But we'll probably just get the "actual" troller version with 20 sec rech and 13 end. Which is still a good power, just mean the one the trollers are using is better than it should be... or doms is worse based on how the other aoe's have transferred to the epics.
I have no problem with high end costs when they are justified, of which several of the end costs on doms are debatable. I have zero issues with something that is released as a certain value that everyone gets used to. I have issues when a bait and switch is performed and you either take a set that was exceedingly fast, light on end and easy to build chains and then make is a leviathan. Or you take a previously high recharge high damage model and turn it into clawls. I don't give a crap if the new version can 2 shot hamidon, it isn't what I signed on for when I rolled the set.
It is not fit for the purpose intended. For me. because I intended it to be exactly what it was within a reasonable range of variance. Doubling the recharge of say fireblast is not a reasonable change imo and is unjustified and more than likely unnecessary. I don't care if 8 sec fireblast hits as hard as energy xfer. I really don't.
I expect /earth to be quite high end cost and fully intend for a perma dom build to help fuel it and either soul of mu to further offset the costs (in addition to stam, miracle, num, perf proc, and recovery IO's). With the control secondary effects that should be present in earth:
mag 2 immob in mudpot
50% chance of mag 2-3 stun in fissure
mag 3-4 hold in seismic
It would seem silly to build for anything other than perma dom as all of those will double in mag and get hefty duration. And it looks like it should be fairly easy to perma dom as well.
If the goal is to move doms away from the necessity of perma dom then earth assault is running counter to that intention due to:
high end costs
long recharges (ie all the mallets, tremor...probably fissure)
and massive boostable control.
Hey we want you to rely less on domination, but here take this set that is going to perform about 600 times better with perma dom, but no pressure to go for it 
Old nrg could make do on 3-4 attacks which leaves numerous slots and power choices that could just be used to slot cheap recharge bonuses. New Nrg needs 5-6 attacks, which means you have to slot the attacks as attacks, so you can kiss cheap recharge bonuses away. Aside from having worse set bonuses, how does decimation compare to forcefeedback in price and availability?
I KNOW you aren't reading what you are responding to because I already stated it was a combination of ease of building chains out of very few attacks and strong IO options that made Nrg the easiest and cheapest dom set to tweak.
People say they want every power in a set to be valuable and worthwhile, but then they complain about how tight sets like /sr are. Like I said earlier though, people generally don't know what they actually want and certainly don't know what they are talking about. At times this applies to me as well, this isn't one of them though.
Again you are just showing you aren't reading what you are responding to. I already said Nrg was the easiest set to hit perma dom with, but once other sets were perma dom'd as well they would surpass it. The difference was that nrg was about 5x easier to perma.
I'm getting upset that I've been suckered into having a "discussion" with you again, it usually feels like I'm talking to a wall. Take a few extra seconds and actually read what you are responding to.
Unfortunately they are now as easy as brutes, scrappers and mm's and I don't have any above lvl 40 and probably never will. Even with how fast you can hit 50 now. So unless /earth assault is awesome I doubt I'll ever take another dom to 50.
I also find it difficult to believe that the casual player would raise 50 million inf, (by level 20?) much less know what to do with it to achieve permadom in that precise way that you make reference to. Only a hardcore player would be able to sort through the possibilities to find the one that conserves so much influence. (infamy, rather)
It's probably why chasing popularity for stalkers, pvp, and doms has resulted in next to nothing overall.
Finally, where are you getting lvl 20 by? I just searched the thread and where you pulled that number from is a mystery. I'm getting the feeling it is from the same area as everything you are saying.