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There is another difference between your build and mine. Not only do I not have permadom, I am not trying to get permadom. Perhaps, contrary to having Domination up more often helping to solve your Endurance use issues, you are actually causing an Endurance problem because your recharge is so fast. Domination's ability to refill Endurance, while useful, is not enough to keep up. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I also can't account for how slowly you do or do not play the game compared to me, but if you have no endurance issues now then you must NEVER have had any issues before with lighter attacks and additional efficiency gained through domination. You experience definitely runs counter to mine as I'm ready to call dominators as a whole "endurance pigs". I can count on one hand the number of times I've used domination for something other than the endurance refill since the changes went through. I can't imagine that is how domination was envisioned to be.
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Also, I know I'm using more End on my /Fire now, and less on my /Elec. I just haven't gotten around to reslotting. The question is not whether or not I'm using more End, it's whether I can cope with it, or if it makes the AT unplayable.
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| The funny thing is that if elec is so good now then it just proves that the recharge numbers didn't need to be tampered with seeing as how it closely resembles the structure of "old" dom sets (fast and light). Proof imo that people have no idea what they are talking about. |
Charged Bolts has a 1 damage scale, with a 4 second recharge and 5.2 End cost. Flares and Psi Dart are both faster than that, with a 0.84 DS, 3s rech and 4.37 End. (Flares is actually 0.88 DS, but close enough) So Charged Bolts was not adjusted to be 2.2s rech like Flares used to be, it is still slower than Flares. Power Bolt was and still is identical to Charged Bolts. (So it never had a fast attack like Flares either)
Lightning Bolt has a 1.64 DS, with 8s rech and 8.528 End. Fire Blast is now the same 8s rech and 8.528 End. (It does more damage due to its DoT) Power Blast, which was weaker and faster than Lightning Bolt, is now 1.96 DS with 10s rech and 10.2 End. Actually, Fire Blast, despite its greater damage, used to take the place of Charged Bolts and Power Bolt as the fast Dom building attack, since it had the same recharge that they do now.
Charged Brawl has been reduced from 1.96 DS to 1.32 DS. It now has 6s rech and 6.86 End. Havoc Punch went from 2.6 DS to 1.96 DS, 10s rech and 10.2 End. Bone Smasher matches Havoc Punch exactly. Incinerate has the same rech and End cost, but again does more damage because of Fire's DoT. None of the other sets have a melee attack as fast as Charged Brawl, but then it's still slower than Charged Bolts. Note also that Brute Charged Brawl is 0.84 DS and 3s rech. So Charged Brawl was not reduced as much as it could have been.
I don't really see that Electricity is that much faster than any other Secondary. If anything, the success of Electricity prior to the rebalance seems to show that high damage and long recharge is better for Dominators, rather than worse for them. The fact that it includes a mechanism to recover End might have covered up its higher End cost, or perhaps those used to playing the set unconciously adjusted to it. They didn't have to suddenly go from being very End efficient to having to spend a lot more Endurance.
You need to move beyond single power comparisons. One power does not make a set, even for old psi 
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If you take the avg recharge times of attacks that people actually use (ie no snipe) it comes out to... drum roll please...
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And now in ascending orderAverage Rech elec new 10 elec old 12 icy new 11.1 icy old 10.9 nrg new 12.6 nrg old 8.4 psi new 10.4 psi old 7.1 Fire new 11 Fire old 9.2 Thorn new 10.6 Thorn old 9.4
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Fastest to Slowest psi old 7.1 nrg old 8.4 Fire old 9.2 Thorn old 9.4 elec new 10 psi new 10.4 Thorn new 10.6 icy old 10.9 Fire new 11 icy new 11.1 elec old 12 nrg new 12.6
The numbers speak of themselves. As a SET elec was shifted so it very closely resembles the way OLD assault sets were designed and NRG is the new Elec.
Which supports exactly what I said:
"The funny thing is that if elec is so good now then it just proves that the recharge numbers didn't need to be tampered with seeing as how it closely resembles the structure of "old" dom sets (fast and light). Proof imo that people have no idea what they are talking about. "
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Looks to me like all you've shown is that Elec, Psi and Thorns are all pretty much the same, instead of Elec being all that so much faster. In fact, nothing is down around 7 or 8, which were your previous "fastest sets". (And tellingly, both of those were underperforming, or relying on a single power to compensate for the rest)|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
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Fastest to Slowest elec new 10 psi new 10.4 Thorn new 10.6 |
And besides, an average across all attacks treating them equally is just as irrelevant as single power to single power comparisons. At best, you can say you show a shift away from the really low damage extreme, and more towards the middle, with Psi, Elec and Energy, which we know are the big changes, making the biggest shifts. Fire doesn't even really show up as that big a change, because looking at recharge time doesn't cover the loss of damage in Flares and Combustion.
Heck, just look at your chart. The old values are all clumped up together, and so are most of the new values. The old values you've got two ranges, one from 7.1 to 9.4, and then another from 10.9 to 12. In the 10 to 10.6 range, where you're saying Electric is "like the old Dom sets", there was NOTHING. Now the range is from 10 to 12.6, with really 10 to 11.1 being the continuous bit. If you assume the numbers are damage ranking as well as recharge, then Energy really is a lot more damage than the others.
Take all the aggregate recharges of the "old" and determine the avg. You'll get a number that supports my reasoning that states new elec follows the "old" design almost to the letter.
Elec shifting from the "slowest" set to the "fastest" also supports that whereas all the other sets more or less just shifted upward. Case in point, psi was the fastest pew pew set and after rebalancing is now the second fastest overall set.
The entire dynamics of Elec were changed because it used to play almost identical to new Nrg and new nrg is really good.
I just chuckle when people bag on old doms, but somehow celebrate both new Nrg AND new elec, when new elec IS old doms and old elec WAS new doms heh.
*Don't assume the ranking are indicative of damage. I never said that. They are representative of base DS, but animation times, damage boosting powers and damage type will all play a role in shifting final damage output.
*Interestingly enough, if I'm to believe my elec friends they have opted out of using thunderstrike due to its horrible DPA since the revamp. If I were to drop that power from the "used" list similar to snipes Elec goes down to an avg rech of 8.8, which further goes into supporting the elec:nrg role reversal.
What this is telling me is that Castle spent a whole whack of time playing with the base numbers and yet people blindly jump on board and say both new elec and new nrg are both great, but those same people would probably say the same thing if none of the DS values were tweaked and just the base modifier was increased.
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That makes no sense. Your average isn't even a PART of the old Doms. I already said you had two "clusters" of values, one around 8, and one around 11. There's no Dom that actually had any recharge times around this hypothetical average you talk about. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Take all the aggregate recharges of the "old" and determine the avg. You'll get a number that supports my reasoning that states new elec follows the "old" design almost to the letter.
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| *Don't assume the ranking are indicative of damage. I never said that. They are representative of base DS, but animation times, damage boosting powers and damage type will all play a role in shifting final damage output. |
As I said, at best your table is a rough guide. It's useful only in pointing out the most extreme of cases.
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| *Interestingly enough, if I'm to believe my elec friends they have opted out of using thunderstrike due to its horrible DPA since the revamp. If I were to drop that power from the "used" list similar to snipes Elec goes down to an avg rech of 8.8, which further goes into supporting the elec:nrg role reversal. |
Besides, you are already including Ice Sword Circle in Ice Assault because you claim AoE damage is extremely important to a Dominator. So you exclude an attack when it supports your claims, but insist on including it when that supports your claims.
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| What this is telling me is that Castle spent a whole whack of time playing with the base numbers and yet people blindly jump on board and say both new elec and new nrg are both great, but those same people would probably say the same thing if none of the DS values were tweaked and just the base modifier was increased. |
Actually, I feel that the changes to the individual Power Sets, including and most especially the change to Psi Assault, could NOT have taken place without the change to Domination. Previous to I15, the fast attack that you could use to build Domination was extremely important, especially to the Sets that had only fast attacks and thus could not do significant damage outside of Domination. By making Domination less important to dealing damage, it became less important to build Domination to deal damage, thus making it possible to increase the recharge times and damage of attacks and delay Domination.
At any rate, if the powers had not been changed, then the Domination change as a whole would have been positive. There would still be a wide gap between Energy Assault and Electric Assault, however, whereas now that gap, while as you say reversed, is a lot narrower. It is kind of funny, though, that when you increase damage and recharge time, that is a nerf, and when you decrease damage and recharge time, that is also a nerf.
I'm not going to get into another multi page argument with you because you can't read. I've gone down that road before and it just ends up being a massive waste of time talking to you.
I'm changing my opinion. Longer recharges have magically made doms smoother and easier to build fluid attack chains and failing that at least standing around doing nothing is pretty endurance friendly. And even though elec was celebrated for being designed in accordance with elec manipulation moving away from the request for hard hitting attacks and right in there with old Nrg is great.
Overall the dom changes are perfect, not one thing could have been done better.
How long did some of us predict before threads like the OP's would start popping up again after the dom changes? ya, right around now...
take care.
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As long as people continue to spread misinformation, like "All Dominators got their End costs raised to compensate for their higher base damage", despite the fact that that is not true, posts like the OP's will continue, yes.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
How long did some of us predict before threads like the OP's would start popping up again after the dom changes? ya, right around now...
take care. |
OMG no way to have everyone happy. This thread needs to go to the trash on your desktop. Doms+buff are now funny, team friendly and not perma-necessary.
Oh... stop... are you mad because you burned a respec to accommodate IO's/Powers for the buff??? I know, your ubber fire/psy not good for farming anymore uh??? SO????? Part of the game, live with it.
The goal for the change was to integrate a forgotten AT to team-friendly. And guess what....it's working. You don't see "DOM wanted for AE" "TF looking for DOM"...
Be more grateful... we spent 1 1/2 year begging for a change and now we have it.
Cut off the rant-nerf threads and re-learn to play with your toon.
Thanks devs.... great job =)
Ea depravate semper triumphatum...
Cut the faux middle management dictate crap and get back to the thread.
Sincerely,
Random guy who thinks he is your boss.
This has been an interesting discussion to watch; I'd say you both have half the truth and are busy beating each other over the head with them.
The early design for Dominators seemed to go in for having several quick-recharging attacks in the Assault sets so that Domination could be built quickly. However, due to the linking of damage, recharge, and endurance cost, this meant that each individual attack had low damage and so Dominators had a low overall DPA. Also, with so many quick recharging attacks, combined with the active powers in the primary and the singular viability of permadom requiring loads of global recharge, attack chains were quickly saturated with more powers available than could be activated.
Electric Assault was the first set to be built with relatively slow-recharging, high-damage powers, using the Elec Manip values for dam/end/rech on its melee powers. That combined with Build Up created a set with strikingly high burst damage and DPA. Some complained about the gaps in the early attack chain, but as the characters matured the difference the design made to damage output became obvious.
The Dominator revamp, in addition to shifting damage out of Domination and into the base AT mod, seems to have reconsidered the design of the other assault sets with the success of Elec in mind. Many powers were slowed down and beefed up, increasing the DPA of a saturated attack chain, but also commensurately increasing endurance consumption and introducing gaps into early attack chains. This is a buff to overall AT performance: the maximum sustained damage output of a mid-to-high level Dominator has definitely gone up (with endurance consumption increasing to a like degree).
But Elec Assault was changed in a reverse direction - the melee attacks in particular were sped up and their damage was decreased. I'm honestly not sure why this was done, but it's definitely a nerf to Elec performance in the mid to high levels. It's still a solid set with good ST damage and stronger AoE than Energy, though.
And that's how I see it.
(Incidentally, looking at average power recharge times across a set is silly. The metric that matters to low-level characters is how easy it is to saturate an attack chain, which is a function of low-level power recharge times; for high level characters, best DPA on a saturated chain is the key performance indicator. This is why some people recommend taking more attacks before SOs, when the best way to increase DPS is to saturate the attack chain; then spec into the attacks you want to keep and make up the difference with enhancements.)
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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I'm sorry if I come off that way. Frankly, I know exactly what Frosticus is talking about with the End costs and I can empathise. It's just that the problem is not as general as he seems to believe it is. It certainly isn't recharge time, because the set which is universally described as positively effected by this change has the slowest recharge time of them all. It's "clunkiness", which is not a measurable quantity, its a perceptual one, based on recharge time, animation time, early availability of attacks, and previous performance. Energy and Electric, the two extremes, are apparently less "clunky" than before, Fire, smack dab in the middle, is more. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
This has been an interesting discussion to watch; I'd say you both have half the truth and are busy beating each other over the head with them.
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I personally think I can sum up Frosticus' End problems in one word though: Flares.
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| The Dominator revamp, in addition to shifting damage out of Domination and into the base AT mod, seems to have reconsidered the design of the other assault sets with the success of Elec in mind. [...] But Elec Assault was changed in a reverse direction - the melee attacks in particular were sped up and their damage was decreased. I'm honestly not sure why this was done [...] |
I think it makes a lot more sense, though, if you consider that the Assault sets were moved closer to the midpoint, instead of Electric being moved where Energy was, and Energy being moved where Electric was. Yes, Electric is kind of fast, because on Brutes and Tankers Electric's melee attacks are kind of fast. But it still does way more damage than Energy used to. And Energy, in fact, which does so much more damage than Electric or Fire, doesn't have Build Up. So in fact Electric gets a damage boost with Build Up that gets its damage back closer to the midpoint. (And also makes that extra damage free of End cost)
If you look at the recharge time of the individual attacks, or the average recharge time of them all, as Frosticus did, it really shows that. It went from a range of 7 to 12 to a range of 10 to 12. A much tighter range. Now, this may be irrelevant in regards to the performance of the set, but the devs were not tweaking the damage and recharge times according to the set's performance, they were making changes to the individual attacks, and then seeing what effect that had on performance. And in fact the fastest recharge attacks underwent a lot of changes before settling on what we have now.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
(Incidentally, looking at average power recharge times across a set is silly. The metric that matters to low-level characters is how easy it is to saturate an attack chain, which is a function of low-level power recharge times; for high level characters, best DPA on a saturated chain is the key performance indicator. This is why some people recommend taking more attacks before SOs, when the best way to increase DPS is to saturate the attack chain; then spec into the attacks you want to keep and make up the difference with enhancements.)
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Actually it is very handy to determine roughly how many attacks you will need to take to saturate, or if desiring less attacks an indicator that you will need a lot more global recharge.
It may be more handy to some people if they separate out the types of attacks into ranged, melee, aoe and then examine it, but I don't personally need that done as I'm very familiar with each set so I can look at it as a whole. (and for the most part the pbaoes and cones are all roughly the same)
The way I do it for myself is to select the attacks I'll actually use in a build and then compare it to other sets with the same criteria. if the number ends up high and I don't want to dump a bunch of lotg's or such to solve it I pick something else. But I can't tolerate standing around doing nothing. Some can.
I could only get away with pulling the snipes though for what I posted because when I tried to amend elec by removing one of the lowest dpa attacks in the game (thunderstrike) Jade cried fowl, even though no well built pve elec min/max would use it for st or aoe damage. Zapp has higher dpa
If your particular concern is with low levels then all you have to do is exclude high level powers. Not very hard.
ie. If the set you were looking at for low level performance consisted of 4 powers with recharge of: 6,8,10,15 vs one with 2, 4, 8, 10 it is pretty easy to tell that the latter is going to be alot easier to saturate. though the first might end up hitting like a truck and be awesome in late game if you dump the IO's into it. However, I doubt the avg level reached in this game is over 35 and excessive IO's still aren't the norm.
If your concern is late game high DPA attacks a higher value is an indicator that a particular set probably has more of them in it (seeing as how recharge is linked to DS generally) and a higher value means you'll need more recharge to use them regularly.
I haven't claimed that an examination of avg recharge across a set is anything other than that - avg recharge. If you have no concern with recharge or are interested in something else then look elsewhere. High global recharge tends to be the MOST expensive IO builds you can make and I have a personal distaste for large gaps.
FWIW, after reading this whole thread, I agree with Trashcan wholeheartedly 
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Yes, but removing it removes that consideration of its relative weakness. Although you're not comparing damage, you could be. It's also one of the attacks that got faster, removing it would make Electric look slower comparitively. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I could only get away with pulling the snipes though for what I posted because when I tried to amend elec by removing one of the lowest dpa attacks in the game (thunderstrike) Jade cried fowl, even though no well built pve elec min/max would use it for st or aoe damage. Zapp has higher dpa
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It is better to leave all low utility attacks in, since they are ALL of low utility. Everyone's got a power or two that they can skip, so treat them all equally. No one uses the snipes, for instance, so either remove them all, or keep them all. And since Ice has no snipe, that would throw off the comparison.
What do you say to Energy having such high recharge? Why is it good in that case and not good for your examples?
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This isn't entirely true. Nrg was ridiculously easy to make attack chains with before and with only a few attacks. That along with good IO options was why nrg was the easiest secondary to perma dom. Nrg is definitely better now for most people, but you need to slot a lot of attacks and be prepared to use them. The days of just spamming BS, TF, and burst as a complete chain are gone. (slight exaggeration |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I'm sorry if I come off that way. Frankly, I know exactly what Frosticus is talking about with the End costs and I can empathise. It's just that the problem is not as general as he seems to believe it is. It certainly isn't recharge time, because the set which is universally described as positively effected by this change has the slowest recharge time of them all. It's "clunkiness", which is not a measurable quantity, its a perceptual one, based on recharge time, animation time, early availability of attacks, and previous performance. Energy and Electric, the two extremes, are apparently less "clunky" than before, Fire, smack dab in the middle, is more.
I personally think I can sum up Frosticus' End problems in one word though: Flares. |
).Making Powerpush an amazing attack is what has transformed Nrg under the new design. If it was still skipped Nrg would be pretty rough in the low levels if you aren't mind or grav.
Be careful in your statements because the change to powerpush (and tk thrust) are not mutually exclusive from old doms, but they are a huge part of what constitutes the "improved" state of those sets.
As for my current issue with fire, ya it is mostely flares, though I don't like an 8 second fireblast either and would have probably liked it better at 6 seconds. Fire is set up a lot like ice blast (actual ice blast, not icey) and just like ice it is very hard to make fluid chains now.
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hmm I had a feeling you weren't understanding what avg meant, or that you weren't actually reading what you have been responding to.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Yes, but removing it removes that consideration of its relative weakness. Although you're not comparing damage, you could be. It's also one of the attacks that got faster, removing it would make Electric look slower comparitively.
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What do you say to Energy having such high recharge? Why is it good in that case and not good for your examples? |
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But you agree that while it was ridiculously easy to make permadom, it was NOT the best Secondary overall. Even with the advantage of Domination up all the time, it was still inferior damage, right?|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
This isn't entirely true. Nrg was ridiculously easy to make attack chains with before and with only a few attacks. That along with good IO options was why nrg was the easiest secondary to perma dom. Nrg is definitely better now for most people, but you need to slot a lot of attacks and be prepared to use them. The days of just spamming BS, TF, and burst as a complete chain are gone. (slight exaggeration
). |
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Making Powerpush an amazing attack is what has transformed Nrg under the new design. If it was still skipped Nrg would be pretty rough in the low levels if you aren't mind or grav. Be careful in your statements because the change to powerpush (and tk thrust) are not mutually exclusive from old doms, but they are a huge part of what constitutes the "improved" state of those sets. |
It seems as if you are saying that Consume (which does damage comparable to Power Push, even though it's AoE) should be doing more damage. Or at least be more usable as a chained attack.
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| As for my current issue with fire, ya it is mostely flares, though I don't like an 8 second fireblast either and would have probably liked it better at 6 seconds. Fire is set up a lot like ice blast (actual ice blast, not icey) and just like ice it is very hard to make fluid chains now. |
Honestly, I'm not really sure why Fire was changed at all, as its performance was comparable to Ice, and just fine. I can understand the standardization of the starting attacks, as building Domination should not be as important any more, and dealing damage more, but whether through oversight or intentional nerf, even that led to the current Flares.
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It was the best secondary if you wanted a cheap perma dom, or wanted to get perma dom at the earliest level possible. Just like how the sword sets are ultimately surpassed by other scrapper sets they offer tremendous earlier benefit that is very desirable to some people. I mean there was no shortage of /nrg doms running around despite the set being "unplayable" on these forums.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
But you agree that while it was ridiculously easy to make permadom, it was NOT the best Secondary overall. Even with the advantage of Domination up all the time, it was still inferior damage, right?
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Inferior damage? maybe, that is tough to make a judgment call on. If my /nrg is perma dom 15 levels before other sets what does that do to damage output over the lifetime? I mean it was so easy to build into a perma dom relative to other sets that it might be fair to compare perma dom /nrg to non-perma dom other stuff.
w/ dom+enhances
Pbolt - 99
Pblast - 130
BS - 187
TF - 407
Pburst - 210
In that regard, even next to the mighty "old" elec non-perma it was very good.
Cbolt - 72
Lbolt - 118
Cbrawl - 162
Havoc - 216
TS - 247
Obviously once other sets achieved perma dom they could blow past nrg, but I seem to recall a thread where someone demonstrated they could build a perma /nrg dom for like $50mill at the time when most doms were usually spending over a quarter billion for perma. For a "casual" player dipping into IO's that sounds pretty tempting to me.
For people totally unwilling to invest even a tiny bit of inf into their /nrg dom then ya they were totally the suck. For those people Castle changed the entire AT. If Castle wants to post the population stats for each AT over the last while then I guess that would be the best way to determine if the dom changes were for the better.
I'd wager 100 million inf that the population has actually decreased despite a short surge right after i15, but that might just be biased because my personal desire to play doms has decreased.
I wouldn't take that bet.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I wouldn't take that bet.
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^This
I like the changes that were made. Permadoms weren't nerfed. You can still do significant damage while perma domed (besides Permadom should have always been about the Control not the damage.) The changes simply made Doms more viable for the average player.
Doms have become much more popular since the changes in my opinion, I've seen quite a few since. Whether this is in direct relation to the changes or not, who knows unless a poll is taken.
I rolled a dom after the changes. I love my dom and am currently working on Permaing her (she isn't gimped without perma either which makes the AT more attractive in my eyes).
I hate to say it.. but Castle made a great decision with this change.
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You misunderstand me. I wouldn't bet against Frosticus that dom population hasn't increased with the buff.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
^This
I like the changes that were made. Permadoms weren't nerfed. You can still do significant damage while perma domed (besides Permadom should have always been about the Control not the damage.) The changes simply made Doms more viable for the average player. Doms have become much more popular since the changes in my opinion, I've seen quite a few since. Whether this is in direct relation to the changes or not, who knows unless a poll is taken. I rolled a dom after the changes. I love my dom and am currently working on Permaing her (she isn't gimped without perma either which makes the AT more attractive in my eyes). I hate to say it.. but Castle made a great decision with this change. |
Yeah, there are a few more doms overall, but their place in popularity is still 4th and pretty far behind corruptors, brutes and masterminds.
Do a team search on several servers over several days at different time points and you'll see what I'm saying. Heck, many times I've checked doms are in 5th behind stalkers.
So to conclude:
1. AT damage/performance improved - yes
2. AT popularity improved - no
3. Were Castle's STATED goals achieved?
# Eliminate Jeckyll and Hyde feeling.
# Improve "feel" of low level play.
# Have minimal impact on "Perma-dom" players.
# Increase Dominator vs. Controller viability.
a) yes, to a degree - domination is still important to click for the endurance and increased control
b) maybe (I personally haven't noticed a huge difference)
c) for some 'yes', for others 'no'
d) I assume this is reference to 'Going Rogue' ability to crossover, so only time will tell.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Well, permaDomination doesn't depend on the recharge time or chaining of the attacks, so I'm guessing that what you mean by /Energy being easy to permadom is that it has attacks that you can use available IOs in that will give you +recharge bonuses. Thus, it is not the traits of Energy itself (fast recharge, low damage, low end cost) that makes it viable for permadom but such factors as the ability to slot Stun in its attacks. This actually hasn't changed. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
If my /nrg is perma dom 15 levels before other sets what does that do to damage output over the lifetime?
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I do understand that faster attacks means that you can build the first Domination quickly. But once that is established, it depends on recharge time. So if I am misunderstanding, please correct me. The level at which you can achieve permadom depends upon the level of the Set IOs. Normally, around 35, with the purples only available at 50.
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| For people totally unwilling to invest even a tiny bit of inf into their /nrg dom then ya they were totally the suck. For those people Castle changed the entire AT. |
It does seem rather odd to me that you believe restricting the number of people who are capable of getting performance out of an AT would lead to it being more popular and more utilized.
I also find it difficult to believe that the casual player would raise 50 million inf, (by level 20?) much less know what to do with it to achieve permadom in that precise way that you make reference to. Only a hardcore player would be able to sort through the possibilities to find the one that conserves so much influence. (infamy, rather)
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Well, I don't think anyone believes or was saying that the nerfing of PSW would have "minimal impact". And in fact the boost to Energy Assault has been anything but a "minimal impact". In some cases that goal was unachievable, since to leave things as they were would be to leave them as they were. With Energy underperforming, and Psi relying entirely on a power the devs couldn't nerf because it would kill the Set.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
# Have minimal impact on "Perma-dom" players.
c) for some 'yes', for others 'no' |
I was more interpreting this as not minimal impact for those permadoms who had enough recharge to 2x-3x stack the dom dmg boost. For them, they got nerfed and they're not happy.
For the 'average' permadom who only had recharge to keep 1x domination dmg boost at all times, they didn't see a damage decrease when the dom dmg boost was moved out of domination.
For the non-perma player, the apparent holy grail for the devs, they ARE seeing an OVERALL damage boost as measured by DPM. There are some exceptions in individual powers, namely PSW.
Please buff Ice Control.
So if you're not noticing a huge amount of additional damage when you are not in Domination, and not finding your Domination bar fill up just about the time you need it for more Endurance, well, all I can say is I am. On my Fire Dom. I don't know what to say, except that maybe it's the fact that you feel you have to spam attacks and keep your attack chain going all the time. (Even with bugged powers like Flares) I rarely have foes last that long in combat against me, but maybe you do need more End slotting than me.
You yourself say it's easier, so I'm guessing you're killing faster. You just don't like the "feel" of it. With Fire I can understand that, I've always avoided Flares, so to me Fire has always been a little clunky. But I'm not happy with Fire. I put up with it, honestly, Fire is still getting extra damage no other set gets, so it's efficient, and there's no looking down on Fiery Embrace. But there's still no word on Flares. I'd be happy with a +15% damage secondary effect, but I don't know if we're going to get it.
I also can't account for how slowly you do or do not play the game compared to me, but if you have no endurance issues now then you must NEVER have had any issues before with lighter attacks and additional efficiency gained through domination. You experience definitely runs counter to mine as I'm ready to call dominators as a whole "endurance pigs". I can count on one hand the number of times I've used domination for something other than the endurance refill since the changes went through. I can't imagine that is how domination was envisioned to be.
The problem with rose colored glasses is that they don't let you clearly see. Every single set other than elec requires more recharge now, even icy. Most people realize that aoe output is important too and that if all that mattered is st damage we'd all be playing stalkers.
Any number greater than 1.0 on the excel below means it recharges slower and hits harder (excluding some of the aoes) and costs more endurance.
For pretty much ever dominator out there to attack in a similar manner as before they require more recharge and will burn more endurance (except elec). Once achieved you will do more damage, but until that point with big holes in your chains you will do similar, less, or more damage than old (depending on playstyle and build), but you trade in fluidity under low/no recharge for clunky hard hitters. (axe vs dual blade feel)
The obvious way around the recharge disparity it to take more attacks. That's fine, but bare in mind that means a tighter build and more slots to spread thinly and very likely a playstyle change seeing as how few if any doms have options to sub in alternative attacks that maintain an existing pattern (ie I can't sub in fireball to fill out a ranged fire chain, or explosive blast or w/e) so you'll probably be requiring more melee time.
The funny thing is that if elec is so good now then it just proves that the recharge numbers didn't need to be tampered with seeing as how it closely resembles the structure of "old" dom sets (fast and light). Proof imo that people have no idea what they are talking about.