Make a SR without stamina and weave, like my elec brute, and you'll have all sorts of room for travel powers.
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burn is damage mitigation with a twist... and not that good a power unless you can immob the enemy.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I really like the sound of this.
Comparing Elec Armour to Fire Armour now, Elec is now looking pretty good. Elec gets - slightly more S/L resistance - a poorer heal, but it increases recovery - end drain resistance, one of the late game bugbears for Fire Armour - Psi resistance, another late game bugbear of Fire Armour - a negative hole instead of a cold hole, cold being associated with -Recharge that messes with healing Flames made this a problem for Fire tankers. - slightly wonky KB protection in Grounded - Lightning Reflexes. Fire Gets - Burn - Fiery Embrace, especially good if you take Fire secondary - Better healing Both tier 9's are a bit on the undesirable side, one's pre-suicide, the other's post-suicide  So Fire will still output more damage and heal better, but Elec gets a good few perks, and tackles most of Fire's weak points very nicely. I16 will also see us able to recolour either set, making the cosmetic differences even less. If you were dead set on some kind of flaming man concept but wanted Electrical Armour, you could probably pull it off. Having said all that, I'm planning a Fire Tanker and an Electric Armour Scrapper. I dopnt think Fire Armour will get edged out completely, but it sounds like its got a contender on it shands now. [Edit] I should consider Dark Armour too, I guess, the three sets have similar heal/resistance/damage aura setups. Dark I guess still has its niche with the two mez auras as a Tanktroller rather than Scranker build. |
FE... every 90 seconds with 3 slots.
Shield Defense does more damage and has higher burst damage with Shield Charge.
This will only move fire armor even further down the list. well, it cant go any lower than the bottom.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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And after this ELA change, Shield Defense is going to be the set with the least damage mitigation, so it makes sense for it to be much nastier than Fiery Aura.
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Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
burn is damage mitigation with a twist... and not that good a power unless you can immob the enemy.
FE... every 90 seconds with 3 slots. Shield Defense does more damage and has higher burst damage with Shield Charge. This will only move fire armor even further down the list. well, it cant go any lower than the bottom. |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
And after this ELA change, Shield Defense is going to be the set with the least damage mitigation, so it makes sense for it to be much nastier than Fiery Aura.
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A shield tank can have 40%defense to everything without IO's. That also does not include Maneuvers, just Weave.
My shield/ice is currently much more efficient at clearing missions than my fire/ice.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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This is a topic for another thread but Fiery Armor is indeed in a disadvantage. The only thing that makes Fiery Armor look good is pre-granite stone.|
Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
A shield tank can have 40%defense to everything without IO's. That also does not include Maneuvers, just Weave.
My shield/ice is currently much more efficient at clearing missions than my fire/ice. |
Fiery armor's offensive HAS to bee looked at. I say offensive and not defensiveness because the set was always meant to be THE offensive armor set.
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I was thinking about this the other night. IMO elec > fire in pretty much every way.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I really like the sound of this.
Comparing Elec Armour to Fire Armour now, Elec is now looking pretty good. Elec gets - slightly more S/L resistance - a poorer heal, but it increases recovery - end drain resistance, one of the late game bugbears for Fire Armour - Psi resistance, another late game bugbear of Fire Armour - a negative hole instead of a cold hole, cold being associated with -Recharge that messes with healing Flames made this a problem for Fire tankers. - slightly wonky KB protection in Grounded - Lightning Reflexes. Fire Gets - Burn - Fiery Embrace, especially good if you take Fire secondary - Better healing Both tier 9's are a bit on the undesirable side, one's pre-suicide, the other's post-suicide So Fire will still output more damage and heal better, but Elec gets a good few perks, and tackles most of Fire's weak points very nicely. I16 will also see us able to recolour either set, making the cosmetic differences even less. If you were dead set on some kind of flaming man concept but wanted Electrical Armour, you could probably pull it off. Having said all that, I'm planning a Fire Tanker and an Electric Armour Scrapper. I dopnt think Fire Armour will get edged out completely, but it sounds like its got a contender on it shands now. [Edit] I should consider Dark Armour too, I guess, the three sets have similar heal/resistance/damage aura setups. Dark I guess still has its niche with the two mez auras as a Tanktroller rather than Scranker build. |
Off hand how much hp does 195% regen over 30 seconds work out to be on an elec tank. I doubt as good as healing flames still, but much closer than the initial numbers make it look.
Ya fire has decent +offense, but unlimited endurance and a passive +rech also contribute a lot to offense. For a lot of builds arguably more than burn and FE do (though clearly less for some like a fire/stone that can leverage burn so well).
As you mention elec is just full of goodies after that too.
After running a /sheild brute and scrapper and a fire armor tank and brute imo shields is more offensive than fire in most situations and now elec looks to be raining on fire's parade as well.
Also I'm seeing some definite potential for stamina-less tanks and scrappers that tank /body app that would have endurance management that was sufficient to do pretty much anything at full pace.
buff fire, thx.
fire cannot compete with shield defense for the amount of offense delivered. Elec looks to be better than fire in almost every way. Elec will have the endurance to maintain a full attack chain non stop. Fire cannot come close to that.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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At what level and with what kind of enhancements?|
Originally Posted by Ice_Ember
fire cannot compete with shield defense for the amount of offense delivered. Elec looks to be better than fire in almost every way. Elec will have the endurance to maintain a full attack chain non stop. Fire cannot come close to that.
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I have a level 50 Fire/Fire tanker and endurance is not a problem, even when running five or six toggles. I slot IO sets I just don't run out of end unless fighting Carnies. And although Consume recharges more slowly than Power Sink, it's just about all I need when fighting Carnies.
No doubt about it, Electric Armor's resistance to end drain is very nice. But if your Fire Tank is having endurance problem the good news is that there are plenty of ways to fix it.
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You meant consume XD and to the posts just before it I think that Shield is not so much the one with the lowest in mitigation but the most worse of solo. To be at its strongest it has to be teamed.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
At what level and with what kind of enhancements?
I have a level 50 Fire/Fire tanker and endurance is not a problem, even when running five or six toggles. I slot IO sets I just don't run out of end unless fighting Carnies. And although Combustion recharges more slowly than Power Sink, it's just about all I need when fighting Carnies. No doubt about it, Electric Armor's resistance to end drain is very nice. But if your Fire Tank is having endurance problem the good news is that there are plenty of ways to fix it. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Though that won't matter for long, now, will it?
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Originally Posted by Shannon_EU
to the posts just before it I think that Shield is not so much the one with the lowest in mitigation but the most worse of solo. To be at its strongest it has to be teamed.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rodion
At what level and with what kind of enhancements?
I have a level 50 Fire/Fire tanker and endurance is not a problem, even when running five or six toggles. I slot IO sets I just don't run out of end unless fighting Carnies. And although Combustion recharges more slowly than Power Sink, it's just about all I need when fighting Carnies. No doubt about it, Electric Armor's resistance to end drain is very nice. But if your Fire Tank is having endurance problem the good news is that there are plenty of ways to fix it. |
I have a second build, fire/ice, which is currently slotted with just SO's which are the basics. Balance is not done around IO's. With my new build, which will be done if I can ever finish running timed AE missions, will not have endurance issues because of the Numina Unique and better endurance IO slotting.
Shield/ice is more end efficient. I cant wait to see my shield/fire in action. Fire melee is much more end efficient at defeating spawns than Ice melee is. Shield is faster than fire armor as well. Shield Charge > Fiery Embrace and Burn. And the burst helps out more than Blazing Aura on the missions I ahve been running.
Elec will push fire even further down with any sort of heal with the other benefits it has. I look forward to getting one to 50 to compare.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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You know, after taking a Fire Scrapper up to 50 and watching my Fire Tank languish, I am beginning to agree with you on Fire needing a look, from a Tanker prespective.
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
This is a topic for another thread but Fiery Armor is indeed in a disadvantage. The only thing that makes Fiery Armor look good is pre-granite stone.
Fiery armor's offensive HAS to bee looked at. I say offensive and not defensiveness because the set was always meant to be THE offensive armor set. |
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
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Eh, I think we're cutting Fire a little short. I still think Consume and Burn need a lookover and tweak, but it's still pretty good. Shield Charge is nice, but it does have a fairly long recharge. I can use FSC and Combustion on every mob to drop all the minions in a couple powers (and a few ticks of Blazing Aura), whereas I really can only do that whenever Shield Charge is up, to couple it with Foot Stomp.
Yes, I know there are other power combinations, but Fire is pretty good for damage. Just a few too many wonky powers (as in how weird/badly they work compared to the powers in Shields).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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How come you're comparing powers in a secondary to a power in a primary? At least compare Fiery Embrace to Shield Charge.
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Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Shield Charge is nice, but it does have a fairly long recharge. I can use FSC and Combustion on every mob to drop all the minions in a couple powers (and a few ticks of Blazing Aura), whereas I really can only do that whenever Shield Charge is up, to couple it with Foot Stomp.
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Haven't really had a problem on my Fire Tanker in a while. And no thanks on changing it's Tier 9, I like my Rise of the Phoenix just fine.
Champion-
Flaming Intern/Tanker(main)
The Ice Albatross/Blaster
Apollonius/Controller
Valtrix/Defender
All the tank sets in the Intern variety
Burning Intern/Brute(CoV Main)
And the list goes on...
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There is no comparison. Shield charge is better for damage output.|
Originally Posted by Failsight
How come you're comparing powers in a secondary to a power in a primary? At least compare Fiery Embrace to Shield Charge.
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Fiery Embrace affects damage for 10 seconds/20 seconds for fire. Attacks only affect 10 enemies for an AoE.
Shield Charge affects 16. Plus with saturated AAO you are at a bonus of 65% additional damage for everything.
FE slotted is every 90 seconds.
SC is every 45 seconds.
There really is no comparison. Even with the added damage from burn, which only affects 5 at a time.
Elec will not have the bit of added damage, which is really only useful to /fire damage, but it will be better resistance and secondary benefits. The "leaked" heal/regen numbers are nice and will make for a good power (I think) Will it be better than Healing Flames? I dunno. Healing Flames is affected by slows, so the extra regen for 30 seconds will be nice. I will just have to compare it as well.
I think for the 40-50 heroside praetorian and carnies missions, elec will be better than fire. Freaks will go to elec as well. Cot and Nems will go to fire.
Changing conserve power to a more useful power will make me decide to play my dark/elec brute and then I will decide on a scrapper or tank to play as well.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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If RotP could be used when alive as well, I would respec back into it. |
Originally Posted by FlamingIntern
Haven't really had a problem on my Fire Tanker in a while. And no thanks on changing it's Tier 9, I like my Rise of the Phoenix just fine.
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Same timer and damage, but a teleport attack with the same animation and 15 seconds of untouchable.
(or remove the self rez, lower the timer to 90 sec, same animation teleport attack, KU instead of KB.)
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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As Failsight points out, you're assuming all Fire tanks get FSC & Combustion. Not sure why you think we all play Fire/Fire. Comparing Shield Charge to FSC & Comb. is meaningless; instead compare Fire/Fire to SD/Fire. Compare BA & FE (and Burn) to AAO and SC and see who comes out ahead in the long run. If you still see an offensive advantage for Fire (doubtful, even w/FE working fully for Fiery Melee), then tell us that it's enough to offset the defensive advantage for SD.|
Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Eh, I think we're cutting Fire a little short. I still think Consume and Burn need a lookover and tweak, but it's still pretty good. Shield Charge is nice, but it does have a fairly long recharge. I can use FSC and Combustion on every mob to drop all the minions in a couple powers (and a few ticks of Blazing Aura), whereas I really can only do that whenever Shield Charge is up, to couple it with Foot Stomp.
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Fire/* is absolutely painful to play w/just SOs. I would never do it again. Hell, even with moderate IO slotting, it's only acceptable at best and still kinda squishy/gasping for end, with only a bit more damage output unless you can fully leverage Burn. It's only with full IOs (some combo of high def, high regen, silly recharge, high end recovery, etc) that Fire finally feels "on par" with the other sets, but those other sets equally IOed can still go further, and it's only the fact that you really don't need *that* much mitigation in 95% of this game that Fire feels equal (what w/the slightly higher damage and all).
Elec is going to absolutely blow Fire out of the water.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Burn needs help. Consume needs help. Already said that Fiery Aura needs help... said it LOTS of times in many posts, starting well before Shields came out. However, people do tend to sell it short. Shield Charge is great and all, but it's not the be-all, end-all: your primary has a lot more effect on your AOE capability. Hence people liking the idea of Shield/SS or Shield/Elec, etc. That was my point, which people kind of looked over and instead pointed at me talking about one combination of powersets (which I admitted as well).
Fiery Embrace really should affect all damage types for the 20 seconds, and then it would probably be okay. I think people need to look at it more as an addition to Build-Up, rather than to be used on its own. You can double up both powers, or use them separately for a longer time with +damage.
Also, I really wouldn't want to take Shields with just SOs, either. Mine is great at the def cap, but it can still get squishy fighting lots of DE or Veng-stacked Nemesis, which I've done a lot with him: if he wasn't at the def cap, I'd notice his issues a lot more. You can pick up a lot of power pools to to get close to it if you're just using SOs, of course, but that does limit your build a fair amount, too.
So yeah, Fiery Aura could use some help, but it's not like some have painted it on the forums.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
With SO's only, you can get a SD tank to 40% to everything. It is better than my fire in all of the missions i have run them in. both are /ice melee for comparison, and both only have SO's.|
Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Burn needs help. Consume needs help. Already said that Fiery Aura needs help... said it LOTS of times in many posts, starting well before Shields came out. However, people do tend to sell it short. Shield Charge is great and all, but it's not the be-all, end-all: your primary has a lot more effect on your AOE capability. Hence people liking the idea of Shield/SS or Shield/Elec, etc. That was my point, which people kind of looked over and instead pointed at me talking about one combination of powersets (which I admitted as well).
Fiery Embrace really should affect all damage types for the 20 seconds, and then it would probably be okay. I think people need to look at it more as an addition to Build-Up, rather than to be used on its own. You can double up both powers, or use them separately for a longer time with +damage. Also, I really wouldn't want to take Shields with just SOs, either. Mine is great at the def cap, but it can still get squishy fighting lots of DE or Veng-stacked Nemesis, which I've done a lot with him: if he wasn't at the def cap, I'd notice his issues a lot more. You can pick up a lot of power pools to to get close to it if you're just using SOs, of course, but that does limit your build a fair amount, too. So yeah, Fiery Aura could use some help, but it's not like some have painted it on the forums. |
FE with a 20 sec duration still will not compare to AAO all the time or SC every 45 seconds.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
Which is why Fiery Aura needs a variety of little tweaks. Fiery Embrace doesn't make sense only buffing Fire damage for the 20 seconds. It doesn't make sense for Consume to have the long recharge it does, either (it should be at least cut to 90 seconds, if not the 60 seconds that Energy Absorption from Ice Armor gets). Burn needs to reliably DO damage. Put it on a long recharge but with no fear effect, or make it another PBAOE with good damage that will hit the mobs.
No one power in Fiery Aura needs to be equivalent to Shield Charge or AAO. Saying Fiery Embrace isn't as good as AAO doesn't really matter. It's how the two sets stack up. I would agree that Shields is a better and more effective all around set. You can quibble about how much you like Shield Cover, but the whole Shields set is conceived and executed much better than Fiery Aura, as things stand now. Fiery Embrace is okay, but it's got a lot of wonkiness from the years of nerfs, etc.
If the above changes were made, the two sets would be okay and balanced, I would say (though it's hard to say without playing it and seeing how they were changed). Burn would actually add to your offense reliably (reliably is the key word: you don't need a hold or immobilize to make Shield Charge work reliably), Fiery Embrace would help every secondary, and Consume would be a bonus that Shields does not have, so AAO being a more consistent source of damage would not matter (though it doesn't do damage itself like Blazing Aura does, which IS a bonus). Different bonuses that would be fun to have.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Caught my attention here! When they look at 'tweaking'/nerfing powers, PLEASE, tell me they do it considering the Powerset in and of itself and it's own merits while NOT counting influences from outside the powerset such as tough/weave... I certainly hope this is the case.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
Compared to my 90% resists without the REs. Hmm, not tempting. I'd still think the REs would suck and not be worth the power investement, but would likely think the same of unstoppable too depending on the endurance recovery.
Being a set replacement is, in general, a bad thing, sure. Fighting the horesmen in the LGTF, or ghost widow in the STF, just for example, I very much like my click resistance that isn't dependant upon anything else to be sufficient. The instances where that matters is perhaps few and far between, but then that's more than I can say I get out of the resists and hp in OWtS. I liked the idea when it was introduced with strength of will, but I really just don't care for the execution in-game. Besides, you of all people know that 90% down to 78% isn't "next to no effect", even if the crash is easier on people that hate the power. That's to say nothing of what this will do to brutes. All three invuln brutes in the game would hunt you down and shave you without lathering you first. *****edit: Nerfing the S/L portion to zero because some tankers take tough would be a terrible descision.***** |
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what do you like????? really, do you just play devils advocate for the heck of it?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't like the idea of Elec getting a self heal if the rest of the set remains the same for resistance values, etc.
Survivability-wise, it's always been a very solid set. It also has a lot of perks. In general, I don't like defensive sets with lots of utility and perks having a lot of survivability, more survivability than sets that don't have a lot of perks. WP is bad enough for that already. High resistance values, a damage aura, -end debuffs, protection to end drains and slows, increased recharge and movement speed, a self-end recovery power... And now the addition of a self heal and regeneration increase; what amounts to a mini panic click in addition to their tier 9. Even if it's locked at a two minute recharge, that's still a bit much. No sir, I don't like this at all. . |
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't like the idea of Elec getting a self heal if the rest of the set remains the same for resistance values, etc.
Survivability-wise, it's always been a very solid set. It also has a lot of perks. In general, I don't like defensive sets with lots of utility and perks having a lot of survivability, more survivability than sets that don't have a lot of perks. WP is bad enough for that already. High resistance values, a damage aura, -end debuffs, protection to end drains and slows, increased recharge and movement speed, a self-end recovery power... And now the addition of a self heal and regeneration increase; what amounts to a mini panic click in addition to their tier 9. Even if it's locked at a two minute recharge, that's still a bit much. No sir, I don't like this at all. . |
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Originally Posted by Traegus
what do you like????? really, do you just play devils advocate for the heck of it?
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A singular heal on a set that has no health boost is by far not overpowering. Having no means of itself getting significant amounts of defence automatically requires a means of recovering endurance or resisting end drain. Fire has only relatively recently received slow resists, along with Inv, showing a trend in Dev thinking.
And finally, where a set like Fire is supposed to receive a significant damage output boost, ElA gets end drain and end drain resist, both of which are really only situationally useful (where Fire's damage boost is currently either too slow to recharge for too little to non-Fire sets [FE] or also very situational [Burn]).
In short: ElA's utility is either necessary and/or is far from overpowering. Not that what I say will change J_B's mind. Just putting it out there to consider.
I've also never understood why people think resistance-only sets would be über.
And I'd still take SJ.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee