It's a solid change, but how much of an impact it will have will depend on the specifics of it (is the heal/regen slottable, recharge enhanceable? etc).
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Note: They added something to Test so that unless you're in Closed Beta, you won't be able to get to the character creator. That means you won't be able to look at it anymore. Actually, if you can, then you're in Closed Beta and can't say what you see there anyways. |
Originally Posted by Coldmed
thanks to those on the test forums for this as im stil downloading test to take alook
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This leak about CP was before they took Test down to add the above.
That's a pretty good change. It should go a long way towards making Elec competitive.
yeah castle posted on how getting into the costume creator shouldnt happen
*shrugs * oh well... now gimmie my elec tank!
Sounds like a great change! I'll consider rolling a Electric tank, and my SS/Elec brute might be able to drop the Medicine pool for this power. I wasn't planning to take CP anyway, so no loss there.
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I love it when I propose two different things, either of which would fix an issue, and castle implements BOTH. 
Bet this was in the back burner since before I proposed it on the forums but I still love the coincidence!
So, the power heals 25%, that's 50% enhanced, every 2 minutes, that's 1 minute enhanced...
Then for 30 seconds it gives a 200% regeneration once enhanced... would have to sit down with some spreadsheets to see how that all looks but so far it sounds rather nice...
I'll be curious - this might be interesting and similar enough to enhance, especially if the recharge, endurance, and heal are fully enhanceable.
I'm also curious as to whether they will change the tier 9 into something other than a slow suicide button for tankers.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
You would prefer a faster suicide button?
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I think all armor Tier 9s other than Shield's and Willpower should be reviewed. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I'm also curious as to whether they will change the tier 9 into something other than a slow suicide button for tankers.
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I'd turn all the resist ones into One With The Shield-like behavior at the bare minimum, if given enough time I'd review them into something more interesting.
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As much as certain people hate powers like unstoppable, making the resistances weaker to justify a weaker crash would likely, depending on the specifics, make the power less useful when I need it. At the same time, though, I don't use any of the S/L resistance from the power...|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
I think all armor Tier 9s other than Shield's and Willpower should be reviewed.
I'd turn all the resist ones into One With The Shield-like behavior at the bare minimum, if given enough time I'd review them into something more interesting. |
I still think that a better, or partial, solution for unstoppable and its counterparts is moving the crash to occur sooner while the resistance buffs are still in effect.
Mixing innate taunt effects and insta-death crash effects on a character is rather masochistic, though. Someone wasn't really thinking when that decision was made.
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The powers, as they stand, tend to all be total set replacements. Given that its unlikely you will start micromanaging your other powers when you activate your Tier 9s (specially since these tend to add endurance recovery) truth is making them weaker would have next to no effect on the builds.|
Originally Posted by Dersk
As much as certain people hate powers like unstoppable, making the resistances weaker to justify a weaker crash would likely, depending on the specifics, make the power less useful when I need it. At the same time, though, I don't use any of the S/L resistance from the power...
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Take invuln for instance. With just Resist Energies and Unyielding the set gets 31.2 resistance to elements and energies (plus defense.)
A modified version of One with the shield, one that didnt bother providing Smash/Lethal and instead focused on element/energies, could be justified to give 30% base to all types but psi/smash/lethal that would be 46.8% extra resistance for a total 78% elemental/energy/toxic resistance on a much reduced timer and without a kill or die timer.
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Take invuln for instance. With just Resist Energies and Unyielding the set gets 31.2 resistance to elements and energies (plus defense.)
A modified version of One with the shield, one that didnt bother providing Smash/Lethal and instead focused on element/energies, could be justified to give 30% base to all types but psi/smash/lethal that would be 46.8% extra resistance for a total 78% elemental/energy/toxic resistance on a much reduced timer and without a kill or die timer. |
Compared to my 90% resists without the REs. Hmm, not tempting. I'd still think the REs would suck and not be worth the power investement, but would likely think the same of unstoppable too depending on the endurance recovery.
Being a set replacement is, in general, a bad thing, sure. Fighting the horesmen in the LGTF, or ghost widow in the STF, just for example, I very much like my click resistance that isn't dependant upon anything else to be sufficient. The instances where that matters is perhaps few and far between, but then that's more than I can say I get out of the resists and hp in OWtS. I liked the idea when it was introduced with strength of will, but I really just don't care for the execution in-game.
Besides, you of all people know that 90% down to 78% isn't "next to no effect", even if the crash is easier on people that hate the power. That's to say nothing of what this will do to brutes. All three invuln brutes in the game would hunt you down and shave you without lathering you first.
edit: Nerfing the S/L portion to zero because some tankers take tough would be a terrible descision.
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This phrase made me laugh.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
hunt you down and shave you without lathering you first.
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Even if that happened, it would still likely as not be fatal when it went down if you were still in combat against enemies that you needed to hit the power for in the first place. |
Originally Posted by Dersk
I still think that a better, or partial, solution for unstoppable and its counterparts is moving the crash to occur sooner while the resistance buffs are still in effect.
Mixing innate taunt effects and insta-death crash effects on a character is rather masochistic, though. Someone wasn't really thinking when that decision was made. |
Powers like that no longer fit in well with the new content added to the game since i9, when the STF was added - or, for Electric armor, not since i7 when LRSF was added. Unstoppable has not changed from the time when it was last balanced in i6 against the sorts of AV/GM class enemies that existed in the game at that time. For that content, a 2 minute godmode might be useful. It might also be useful for a levelling tank whose team over aggroed and got overwhelmed.
But elaborate encounters like Lord Recluse, Nictus Romulus, and Reichsman have no place for Unstoppable and similar powers. By design, they last more than two minutes. A lead tank who uses the power during them is all but certain to be killed, likely requiring a reset of the encounter. Strength of Will and One with the Shield are not death sentences during these encounters; they are useful when the tanker needs to be a tougher than usual; they crash, but don't wipe the team.
If your tier 9 is useless to you as a tanker when you face the hardest hitting enemy in the game, what's the point of having one?
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Despite actually quite liking OwTS (more so than SoW), I really don't want to see this spread to other sets.
I honestly don't have much of a problem with Unstoppable. The complete end drain is one thing, the lack of recovery on some other T9s though...yeah, don't like that so much. Killing recovery, IMO, was a really bad design move. Draining all endurance by itself, I can live with.
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If that was all that Invuln had to relly on, sure. When the invuln also has HP and darn high Defense values, yea, it can be next to nothing even if in theory it can be huge.|
Originally Posted by Dersk
Besides, you of all people know that 90% down to 78% isn't "next to no effect",
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| All three invuln brutes in the game would hunt you down and shave you without lathering you first. |
Don't mind if i dont sympathize too much with Brute's, though. However: You can always just change tankers and leave brutes with their crash of doom. Would even bring some distinction to tank vs brutes, even if just in a few builds.
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So does unstoppable.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
By design, they last more than two minutes.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
A lead tank who uses the power during them is all but certain to be killed, likely requiring a reset of the encounter
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I've never fought Reichsman with anything other than my IO'd invuln, so I can't comment on his difficultly in general. I was thinking many many things when fighting him, most of them including vulgar explitives, and none of them concerning my survivability.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
If your tier 9 is useless to you as a tanker when you face the hardest hitting enemy in the game, what's the point of having one?
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edit: wow, threadjack. I'll say that electric armor, from my brute experiences, would benefit more from a strength-of-will style power than invuln, as in my opinion it needs more averaged and long-term survivability, plus it doesn't gain as much from the non-S/L resists, already having higher base values.
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Invuln's defense is marginal against individual tough foes, situations where as far as I'm concerned unstoppable is the best teir 9 in the game despite the crash. The 78% figure is also more dependant upon build and situational (admittedly rare) circumstances that turn off unyielding, such as excessive endurance drain or ghost widow's hold... both of which I've encounted but survived due to unstoppable's incredible resist values.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
If [unstoppable's resistances were] all that Invuln had to relly on, sure. When the invuln also has HP and darn high Defense values, yea, it can be next to nothing even if in theory it can be huge.
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I'm not talking theory. In theory, a greater uptime/downtime ratio with a less severe crash on a weaker power is preferable. In my experience, it's exactly what invuln doesn't need.
If so many people can't survive a giant monster or archvillain because unstoppable doesn't last long enough, I find any claims that this kind of a change (weaker effect, shorter duration, faster recharge) would allow the character to survive to be very suspicious. Misguided is the nicest way I can phrase how such a position appears.
Oh, and...
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This proves Mr. Butane was right. The devs love brutes so much more than tankers, they wait to do this until tanks and scrappers are getting the set. Wait...
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Originally Posted by Coldmed
Instead of a ~120% end discount like the brute version, it has a 60% end discount, but a 100% regeneration increase and a hefty heal (468 HP @ level 50 unenhanced) The end discount and regeneration buff last 30 seconds, and the power recharges in 2 minutes. Doesnt look like there's a crash or anything. No word if the recharge time is unenhanceable like SoW.
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I don't like the idea of Elec getting a self heal if the rest of the set remains the same for resistance values, etc.
Survivability-wise, it's always been a very solid set. It also has a lot of perks.
In general, I don't like defensive sets with lots of utility and perks having a lot of survivability, more survivability than sets that don't have a lot of perks. WP is bad enough for that already.
High resistance values, a damage aura, -end debuffs, protection to end drains and slows, increased recharge and movement speed, a self-end recovery power...
And now the addition of a self heal and regeneration increase; what amounts to a mini panic click in addition to their tier 9. Even if it's locked at a two minute recharge, that's still a bit much.
No sir, I don't like this at all.
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Kinda like our current version of rage, eh?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No sir, I don't like this at all.
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You're right. I don't like Rage as it is either.
I think Castle should fix temp powers from working during the crash and the stacking should be removed.
But at the same time I think a portion of the damage bonus should be unresisted or have -res effects added to SS's attacks.
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that would help the current fotm /ss is in pvp atm
back to elec though..i cant wait to try this out..im just wondering how much s/l resistance they will have..with tough can i cap s/l ?..
I'm fairly certain you'll be at around 78% s/l resist with tough and the ela toggles.
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As far as Brutes go, the three biggest perks of the set were unlimited endurance, above-average resists, and Lightning Reflexes. The biggest downsides to the set were the fact that you had no other defenses aside from that resistance, and it starts to hurt when things are regularly creaming you and you have no way to recover aside from making your Inspiration bar entirely green or picking up Aid Self (it was almost mandatory for Elec). IOs do help it out, but they don't have nearly the same effect that they have on Invulnerability. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Survivability-wise, it's always been a very solid set. It also has a lot of perks.
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Just comparing them right now on a Brute, Invulnerability has about 20% more S/L resist than an Elec, while the Elec has about 10% more Negative resist, 20% F/C resist, and capped Energy resist... but this comes at the cost of not being able to be able to soft cap both S/L and N/E, something that's possible on Invulnerability, which makes the extra damage resistance somewhat superfluous.
I agree that all of the utility stuff is nice, but it really, really doesn't make up for the anemic survivability that Elec has.
issue 16 closed beta is today and as we all talked about elec armor..heres a post from the training room for you all.
Looks like they replaced CP with a new power called Energize. EDIT: This is across all versions... Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, and even Stalker... numbers below are for the Tanker version
Instead of a ~120% end discount like the brute version, it has a 60% end discount, but a 100% regeneration increase and a hefty heal (468 HP @ level 50 unenhanced) The end discount and regeneration buff last 30 seconds, and the power recharges in 2 minutes. Doesnt look like there's a crash or anything. No word if the recharge time is unenhanceable like SoW.
thanks to those on the test forums for this as im stil downloading test to take alook