EA should be a perma buff for the most part. Its base 60 recharge with 45 seconds duration. So even w/o haste you are looking at about 15 seconds double stacked.
I think slotted up its ~0.9% defense per foe.
Standard Armors + CJ + Weave = 35 or 36% defense. You need at that point 10 foes to hit the 45% defense mark. Just be sure to use it before you start to gather everything up.
*edit* not sure how you were dropping from Alpha Strikes at 62% defense to your attacks. Scrappers do it with less defense, less HP and less resists often times.
Unless you've done something silly like skipping CE, I'm a little surprised that you feel so squishy, even with a FM secondary. 'Course, when I've used Fire in the past, I've always gotten Air Sup too, which helps a surprising amount.
There are some relatively inexpensive ways to increase your S/L and E/NE defense; for example, 4-slot Smashing Haymaker in your ST attacks and Eradication in your PBAoE attacks. I'd also recommend 4 or 5 slotting Taunt with Mocking Beratement, 2-slotting your travel power with Blessing of the Zephyr (*not* the -KB IO!), and of course, picking up the Steadfast +Def unique. The SP IO should be by far the most expensive of the bunch, unless prices have changed drastically recently. You should also consider putting 4 slots of Reactive Armor in Tough--and Permafrost if you have it.
I haven't worked out the numbers, but that should get you closer to the soft cap, which means it'll be a lot easier to soft cap with EA.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
I have an ice tank and recall being quite happy with his toughness, even before IO'ing him. What are you fighting? If you're in AE a lot, the enemies in there can be way out of whack with the rest of the game.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Sometimes taking an alpha isn't the best call of action. Then having the attack priorities wrong, ie leaving the root of your problems till last will make life harder. MA wasn't around when I was Icetanking and so there were better team mates 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Welcome to the world of Ice tankers. Typical advice; Grab Tough/Weave(which you already have) and spam Energy Absorbtion. It's that simple if you wish to ignore/not use any IO's. EA is your very best friend with an Ice tank. Six slot Hibernate with three recharges(60 sec cooldown) and either three heals or three Endmods. Three heals is a bit overkill so I would go with the endmods. Either way, EA and Hiber are you're bread and butter.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Actually it's quite easy and cheap to reach the softcap with a tank. The best news? You can do it around level 30.
This is a dirty way but once you have some cash you can slot propperly and get some bonuses, but...
Triple slot all your armors.
Triple slot Weave
Triple slot Combat Jumping
Get the +3% defense Steadfast and put it in Tough.
Get the Gaussian set and put it in Build-Up
Get Energy Absorption.
If you hit one enemy with EA you will be at 44.7%, if you hit two enemies you will be softcapped.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lacrymosa
Welcome to the world of Ice tankers. Typical advice; Grab Tough/Weave(which you already have) and spam Energy Absorbtion. It's that simple if you wish to ignore/not use any IO's. EA is your very best friend with an Ice tank. Six slot Hibernate with three recharges(60 sec cooldown) and either three heals or three Endmods. Three heals is a bit overkill so I would go with the endmods. Either way, EA and Hiber are you're bread and butter.
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I haven't played a ice tank recently, but a friend who has tells me that using Hibernate activates a debuff called [NoPhase] that lasts 120 seconds and prevents using Hibernate or a Phase power during that time. That makes slotting recharge in Hibernate useless as the natural recharge of the power is also 120 seconds.
Get a Steadfast +3% Def IO and make sure that EA has 95% recharge (=permanent and stacking).
Quote:
I thought that that was just in PvP... but if I am reading City of Data correctly, it goes for PvE too.
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Originally Posted by Kanto2
I haven't played a ice tank recently, but a friend who has tells me that using Hibernate activates a debuff called [NoPhase] that lasts 120 seconds and prevents using Hibernate or a Phase power during that time. That makes slotting recharge in Hibernate useless as the natural recharge of the power is also 120 seconds.
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The NoPhase also exists in PvE so it is useless slotting Hibernate for recharge.
On your squishiness; I don't find my ice tank squishy at all even though I skipped fighting altogether to fit in some more destruction in my build. I suggest you have a look at two sets: Eradication (3 to 4 pieces in your AoEs) and Kinetic Combat (4 pieces in your ST attacks). Patient bids will get you these sets for moderate amounts of influence and they'll help you soft cap S/L/E/N without the Fighting Pool.
F/C is hardly something to worry about because you are already at resistance cap for ice and should have something around 30% resistance to fire. Besides these are rare attack types. While it might seem that ice armour is a set with huge amount of holes you shouldn't worry about it. You see flying elephants more often than toxic attacks and if you're soloing you can choose not to fight psionic enemies. Also, Chilling Embrace is basically a power that gives you melee resistance: it being a PBAoE -DMG and -Rech aura on top of it's taunt.
Here's a sample build that shouldn't be horribly expensive if you have the patience to wait a week or two after DXP until prices at WW have dropped a bit.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1,401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Frozen Armor LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(7), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 1: Scorch KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 2: Chilling Embrace EndRdx-I(A), Taunt-I(3)
Level 4: Combustion Erad-Acc/Rchg(A), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(9), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13)
Level 6: Wet Ice EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hoarfrost Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal(43), Dct'dW-Rchg(43)
Level 10: Hurdle Jump-I(A)
Level 12: Combat Jumping Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Health Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(17), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17), RgnTis-Regen+(19), Heal-I(19)
Level 18: Glacial Armor LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(42), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 20: Stamina P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-End%(27)
Level 22: Hasten RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 24: Build Up GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(25), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(25)
Level 26: Energy Absorption LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(34), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(34), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(34), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(37)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle Erad-Acc/Rchg(A), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(29), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31)
Level 30: Icicles Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), Sciroc-Dam%(46), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(50)
Level 32: Hibernate Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(46), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 35: Incinerate KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Char BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(42)
Level 44: Fire Blast Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Fire Ball Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dam%(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Permafrost S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
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Set Bonus Totals:
14,3% Defense(Smashing)
14,3% Defense(Lethal)
3% Defense(Fire)
3% Defense(Cold)
14,3% Defense(Energy)
14,3% Defense(Negative)
3% Defense(Psionic)
8,63% Defense(Melee)
8,63% Defense(Ranged)
3% Defense(AoE)
3,6% Max End
4% Enhancement(Heal)
11,3% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
43% Enhancement(Accuracy)
10% FlySpeed
393,6 HP (21%) HitPoints
10% JumpHeight
10% JumpSpeed
MezResist(Immobilize) 18,2%
MezResist(Sleep) 1,65%
MezResist(Terrorized) 2,2%
8,5% (0,14 End/sec) Recovery
74% (5,79 HP/sec) Regeneration
2,84% Resistance(Fire)
2,84% Resistance(Cold)
3,13% Resistance(Negative)
10% RunSpeed
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Maybe I can shed some light on this subject ....|
Originally Posted by Amberyl
I've got an ice/fire tanker sitting at level 38 at the moment, and he continues to be awfully squishy. This is an SO build, but even against pure smash/lethal, he's something of a wuss.
My armors are slotted with three defenses, I have Tough with three resists, I have Weave with three defenses, I have Hoarfrost slotted three recharge three heal so it's maximally effective, I have Combat Jumping. I also have Energy Absorption slotted up fully, and I recognize it also gives a defense boost. Now, I recognize that at 50, with IOs, I'll be able to (rather expensively, unfortunately) softcap at least S/L defense. But at the moment, I'm sitting at about 35% defense and 23% resist, fully slotted, minus Energy Absorption's brief buff. (Versus a stone tank's Granite, which would grant 20% defense and 50% resist unslotted.) What do I do to not suck? I still have twelve levels to go to 50. Since I chose a /fire secondary, I'm lacking the mitigation that I'd get with, say, SS. I do have Hibernate, but turning into a little block of ice makes me feel like a wuss, and the regen rate is nailbiting. I am teaming with people who can heal and buff, but I tend to PUG a lot, which means that actually getting a heal or buff is unreliable at best. (Fortitude, say, can help a lot, since it fills up the defense gap to the softcap and beyond, but the other day I was on a team where between buffs and whatnot I was at 62% defense according to the combat attributes monitor, but still would sometimes take enough hits in a row from an alpha strike that I might as well have been one-shot.) Standard tanking tactics, i.e., gather and cluster up, no herding. |
Ice Tankers for non-AE content hold up fairly well and in some cases outshine most other Tanker primaries. This is due to fighting a mix of tier type of mobs (bosses, LTs and minions) so that your defense only build (for all intents and purposes) isn't pushed over the edge.
However with the inclusion of the difficulty slider some years back and more recently, a popular TF with defense debuffs aplenty (ITF), and the MA system (that features popular farms of +level boss only maps) the content of CoH has really passed Ice Armor by.
The reason for this is that Ice Armor is a defense only based set (meaning you get no resists to the most common damage types (smash/lethal)). Even with hitting the soft cap of 45%, higher level and higher tiered mobs have higher *minimum* chances to hit you (Sarrate or Starsman can post the actual numbers). So if you were doing an L52 boss farm this weekend, and you had all the support in terms of defense (lets say you had 200% defense), you'd have still been faced with packs of 12-18 mobs, all of which had a *minimum* 8-10% chance to hit you (even with 200% defense).
With no resists to smash/lethal (or even the 20% or so provided by Tough) that translates into a *very* squishy Tanker ... for that type of content.
As I said, most content outside of the MA system won't bother you nearly as much ... unfortunately the MA content is predominantly the most popular content currently.
Eat a little purple pez. Boom! Soft cap.
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
Quote:
I don't actually think that at all. My ice tank without the fighting pool is, thank you very much, easily able to be the main tank on an ITF or basically anything without high ToHit bonuses. I have only ever died once against romans on my ice tank and that was before level 50, me being SKed.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
Maybe I can shed some light on this subject ....
Ice Tankers for non-AE content hold up fairly well and in some cases outshine most other Tanker primaries. This is due to fighting a mix of tier type of mobs (bosses, LTs and minions) so that your defense only build (for all intents and purposes) isn't pushed over the edge. However with the inclusion of the difficulty slider some years back and more recently, a popular TF with defense debuffs aplenty (ITF), and the MA system (that features popular farms of +level boss only maps) the content of CoH has really passed Ice Armor by. The reason for this is that Ice Armor is a defense only based set (meaning you get no resists to the most common damage types (smash/lethal)). Even with hitting the soft cap of 45%, higher level and higher tiered mobs have higher *minimum* chances to hit you (Sarrate or Starsman can post the actual numbers). So if you were doing an L52 boss farm this weekend, and you had all the support in terms of defense (lets say you had 200% defense), you'd have still been faced with packs of 12-18 mobs, all of which had a *minimum* 8-10% chance to hit you (even with 200% defense). With no resists to smash/lethal (or even the 20% or so provided by Tough) that translates into a *very* squishy Tanker ... for that type of content. As I said, most content outside of the MA system won't bother you nearly as much ... unfortunately the MA content is predominantly the most popular content currently. |
I have also tanked lvl 54 boss only spawns in MA and survived. A properly built ice tank is tough as nails unless the enemies you're fighting pack huge amounts of +ToHit. And even that can be countered with purple inspirations.
Defense DeBuffs aren't a nemesis of ice armour either. Pop an inspiration if your defense starts to drop and use EA when available. I could understand people saying using insps is wrong on a tank if you had to use them against anything and everything, but when it's only the case against Def DeBuff I don't see why it shouldn't be done. It's like saying you can't use a green insp if your HP goes low.
Ice armour also has two good panic buttons to help keep you alive: Hoarfrost and Hibernate. Like most sets with heals some level of twitch reflexes is needed in order to benefit from them. If you know how to play and slot your ice tank you should be very self sufficient, you have the tools to top up your endurance and HP. I still prefer my ice tank over my shielder even though the shield tank has assorted resistances (50% S/L, 20'ish to N/E/F/C) and that is because of the survival tools ice armour has. If a shield tank is going down it's going down and nothing from the shield powerset can help it. This is very often not the case with ice armour.
EDIT: Note that both of the tankers are softcapped: ice against S/L/E/N and shielder against melee/ranged/aoe.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Yeah, critters get extra acc for being higher level and higher rank (sorry for the ugly tables, the [code] tag seems to have been removed |
Originally Posted by Kruunch
Even with hitting the soft cap of 45%, higher level and higher tiered mobs have higher *minimum* chances to hit you (Sarrate or Starsman can post the actual numbers). So if you were doing an L52 boss farm this weekend, and you had all the support in terms of defense (lets say you had 200% defense), you'd have still been faced with packs of 12-18 mobs, all of which had a *minimum* 8-10% chance to hit you (even with 200% defense).
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):Lvl +Acc
+0 +00%
+1 +10%
+2 +20%
+3 +30%
+4 +40%
+5 +50%
(Past +5 they stay at 50% acc, but get +tohit as well.)
Rank +Acc
Min +00%
Liu +15%
Bo +30%
AV +50%
So a +2 boss would have a 7.8% (5 * 1.2 * 1.3) chance to hit against a softcapped player.
(I am a little curious why everyone keeps bringing up AE boss farms when AE wasn't mentioned at all in the OP. I have a hard time believing that's all any PUG does... but I avoid PUGs, so I don't know.)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Amberyl
(... the other day I was on a team where between buffs and whatnot I was at 62% defense according to the combat attributes monitor, but still would sometimes take enough hits in a row from an alpha strike that I might as well have been one-shot.)
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Quote:
I'll second this. I was the main tank on an Invincible LGTF, and after the group dashed through the last room and all left, I decided to stick around and see how much I could handle. I was able to solo the entire room. Took a long time, but I did it.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
I don't actually think that at all. My ice tank without the fighting pool is, thank you very much, easily able to be the main tank on an ITF or basically anything without high ToHit bonuses. I have only ever died once against romans on my ice tank and that was before level 50, me being SKed.
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It sounds like the OP is not looking to get into IOs, which *is* where I get a lot of extras. But I can suggest a few things.
1: Hoarfrost is your friend, especially if you use it proactively against an alpha strike which would otherwise nuke you. Max out your Heal and Recharge on it.
2: Ice Tanking is more about damage *mitigation* than it is about damage reduction. Energy Absorption is one of the kings here, since you can easily softcap your Def with it. (If you have Stamina, then this power should be loaded up with Defense Buffs and Recharge). BUT, you'll be more effective when you're in the thick of it, where Chilling Embrace can reduce your enemies speed and damage. (Also, if you're Ice/Ice then you've got Ice Patch, which is a great damage mitigation tool). My attack chain usually consists of diving in, hitting Energy Absorption, then dropping Ice patch. I then either start taunting anyone who isn't paying attention to me, or drop Ice Storm.
3: Per #2...don't let your team string the enemies out by trying to draw them out one at a time. Dive in and pop EA. Your buffs and debuffs are more powerful the MORE enemies are around. (Obviously, use that bit of advice with a grain of salt...sometimes pulling *is* the right choice)
4: When building *any* tank, I've always found that survivability comes from developing your defenses first. When choosing powers, SKIP YOUR ATTACKS until you have free power choices in the 20s. If you solo a lot, then have a separate build for this. Until i16 drops, you're only going to see the occasional boss while soloing, so you can get away with less defenses.
5: Learn what buffs help DEF. Ask for those buffs. Emps and FFers are your friend, although a Dark can help you out too by adding ToHit debuffs to the equation.
If you *do* get into IO sets, you're not going to see a lot of set bonuses which add the DEF bonuses you need. Your positional defenses (AoE, Melee, and Ranged) never really measure up to the damage types you get from specific damage types. Focus on Recharge bonuses so you can keep Hoarfrost up and running as much as possible (it is possible to make it perma) and Regen bonuses, so you can come back from heavy hits faster (it is possible to cap Regen with an Ice Tank...at least according to Mids)
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50s: Doc Sharpe (C:I/K), Malan Bloyth (S:BS/Sh), December Blue (T:I/I), Michael X (Mm:R/T), Ultraboy (C:R/K), Zzyxx (Night Widow), plus 4 retired/rerolled
[b]Heard on Teamspeak:[/b]
"First of all, take off your mother's fishnets"
"Zzzzz."
Did you take Chilling Embrace? I think that's a vital component for any ice tanker's defense. I think it's as important as your primary shields. The slows to incoming attack and critter movement is noticeable even with just a default end redx slotted.
Quote:
I second this. Also the -DMG from Chilling Embrace basically gives you melee resistance as I said earlier. Melee Resistance might not be the best term, but it debuffs the damage of all opponents in melee range, thus effectively granting melee resistance. It also ticks every .5 seconds interrupting any interruptable attacks your enemies have.|
Originally Posted by Fury_Flechette
Did you take Chilling Embrace? I think that's a vital component for any ice tanker's defense. I think it's as important as your primary shields. The slows to incoming attack and critter movement is noticeable even with just a default end redx slotted.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
So a +2 boss would have a 7.8% (5 * 1.2 * 1.3) chance to hit against a softcapped player.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
Nope, the accuracy effects are multiplicative. The formula for critters according to Arcanaville's Guide to Defense:|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't that work out to 7.5%? The equation being (5% * [1 + 0.2 + 0.3]) = 5% * 1.5 = 7.5% with the multipliers both being accuracy and thus adding to rather than multiplying each other. Also sorry if my question didn't make any sense because I'm not really familiar with mathematical terms in English...
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Bounded[ (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (RankBuff) * (LevelBuff) * Bounded[ (BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs + Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ] ]
I colored the relevant part orange. I've verified this to be true many times when calculating enemy tohit. Don't take my word for it, though - I encourage people to test these things for themselves. Soft cap yourself (use purples if you have to) against a single enemy and check he numbers yourself. (Make sure tohit rolls are added to your chat tab.) Try it against several different enemies, too (+1 boss, +2 lieutenant, etc) to make sure it's not a fluke.
Also, it means if the enemy is using an attack with heightened accuracy (like KO Blow or something) that will get multiplied in as well.
Btw, your post made perfect sense, so you have nothing to be self conscious about.
(I envy those who can speak two languages.)
Quote:
I brought up AE missions because I hadn't everh had that hard of a time consistantly outside of them with my Icer and AE boss farms are fairly popular right now (which I *have* had problems with my Icer on).|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
(I am a little curious why everyone keeps bringing up AE boss farms when AE wasn't mentioned at all in the OP. I have a hard time believing that's all any PUG does... but I avoid PUGs, so I don't know.) |
I can't speak for anyone else, but lately (past month or so) basically I've either been doing AE missions or TFs. There's absolutely no bang for the buck in doing normal content unless of course you haven't experienced it yet.
Well you didn't say what you were fighting at the time so people went off on tangents. If you were not in MA, then I would guess you could have been fighting Nemesis, Circle of Thorns, or Devouring Earth. Of these groups, only CoT have direct defense debuff powers in Quicksand. Nems have their version of Vengeance that stacks unlike the player version. So, kill Lieuts last and if the next spawn has glowing red heads -- beware!
DE have their +buff pets which they will summon as soon as you are seen by them and are uninterruptible. Kill the quartz crystals as soon as they appear. These give massive +tohit to any DE affected.
I have 2 lvl 50 Ice armor tanks. My standard tactic: jump in the middle of a spawn and hit EA. EA + CE should neuter the spawn's ability to seriously injure you plus with the added benefit of instantly aggro'ing the entire spawn. Then open fire with those aoe attacks from /Fire and taunt any outliers that are going after your team.
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Try doing the ITF without skads of Trollers and Defenders |
Originally Posted by DSorrow
I don't actually think that at all. My ice tank without the fighting pool is, thank you very much, easily able to be the main tank on an ITF or basically anything without high ToHit bonuses. I have only ever died once against romans on my ice tank and that was before level 50, me being SKed.
I have also tanked lvl 54 boss only spawns in MA and survived. A properly built ice tank is tough as nails unless the enemies you're fighting pack huge amounts of +ToHit. And even that can be countered with purple inspirations. Defense DeBuffs aren't a nemesis of ice armour either. Pop an inspiration if your defense starts to drop and use EA when available. I could understand people saying using insps is wrong on a tank if you had to use them against anything and everything, but when it's only the case against Def DeBuff I don't see why it shouldn't be done. It's like saying you can't use a green insp if your HP goes low. Ice armour also has two good panic buttons to help keep you alive: Hoarfrost and Hibernate. Like most sets with heals some level of twitch reflexes is needed in order to benefit from them. If you know how to play and slot your ice tank you should be very self sufficient, you have the tools to top up your endurance and HP. I still prefer my ice tank over my shielder even though the shield tank has assorted resistances (50% S/L, 20'ish to N/E/F/C) and that is because of the survival tools ice armour has. If a shield tank is going down it's going down and nothing from the shield powerset can help it. This is very often not the case with ice armour. EDIT: Note that both of the tankers are softcapped: ice against S/L/E/N and shielder against melee/ranged/aoe. |
And I can say from personal experience that unless you're in a team with a TON of support (so much so that a Tanker is optional) that your Icer (and by proxy your team) will face plant time and again in a full spawn L54 boss farm. It's just law of averages between getting hit and having little to no resists.
Ice's heal is a slow recharge and Hibernate only works so often (and often will get the group killed if not used by a heads up Icer). While better tools then Shield might have for survival (and I do agree that Ice is more survivable then Shield in a vacuum), they can be insufficient in today's popular content.
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Sometimes I'm just not sure about everything I post. I know my English is good, but some areas require a bit more concentrating to be clear. Mostly these are specific areas like maths, architecture etc. of which I haven't got too much experience talking about in English.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Btw, your post made perfect sense, so you have nothing to be self conscious about. (I envy those who can speak two languages.)
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Also I technically speak 5 languages, two of them very good, 1 moderately and two.. well, not brilliant but I can manage. So, things tend to get mixed up
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Been there, done that. As I have stated previously, a properly slotted ice tanker is able to withstand tremendous amounts of punishment if the player is up to the task. All that is needed is a bit of twitch reflexes when you get an unlucky streak of hits. I can keep myself permanently in the 50-60% range for defense with EA up so the -DEF the Cimerorans use isn't a worry.|
Originally Posted by Kruunch
Try doing the ITF without skads of Trollers and Defenders
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I don't exactly understand why you want to give ice armour such a bad reputation. Even though your ice tank might be squishy it doesn't mean everyone else's is. Slotting, expectations of what your tank can take and adapting to different situations differ from person to person. What one person might think very easy to adapt to (situations needing twitch reflexes for example) might be very hard for someone and this could be the very thing harming your experience as an ice tank. I don't have any problems whatsoever to click hibernate/hoarfrost if things go south. I have over 2.5k HP and it's very rare to get so many successive blows that it would all go before I react.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
And I can say from personal experience that unless you're in a team with a TON of support (so much so that a Tanker is optional) that your Icer (and by proxy your team) will face plant time and again in a full spawn L54 boss farm. It's just law of averages between getting hit and having little to no resists.
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Originally Posted by Kruunch
Ice's heal is a slow recharge and Hibernate only works so often (and often will get the group killed if not used by a heads up Icer). While better tools then Shield might have for survival (and I do agree that Ice is more survivable then Shield in a vacuum), they can be insufficient in today's popular content.
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On top of Hibernate you have Hoarfrost, too. I just can't see where ice armour is missing recovery tools. You could basically cycle those two and have a recovery tool available every one minute. If you absolutely need them more often you should do something to your tactics. Maybe herd only one group of AVs instead of two?
Also your argument about aggro dropping while using Hibernate is pretty much pointless. Take Taunt, throw in 1-3 Taunt Enhancers and the taunt duration is way over 20 seconds. Slot a Heal IO or two in Hibernate and you won't need to keep it on longer than 10-15 seconds anyway. This is how I do it if I have to and it has worked every time I've tried it since i11.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I wasn't dying every spawn -- just the occasional patch of apparently really bad luck. I also had some particular bad moments when my health was getting whittled down bit by bit (or in huge chunks if a stray boss shot came my way), I'd blown Hoarfrost and Hibernate, as well as the greens, oranges, and purples in my tray, and despite the abundance of teammates who could heal and buff, the only healing coming was usually a weak aura heal at the end of the spawn, and buffs were pretty rare. (Yeah, I was in PUG hell much of the time. So goes 2XP weekend.)
I do plan to use set IOs, but not until I reach 50; I don't have the spare Influence to do anything other than use SOs and the occasional cheap basic IO snagged from leaving up multi-day bids on Wentworth's, so I can save up enough to get properly IO'd at 50 (and even then I expect to resort to trading Inf from one of my other toons).
I have all the Ice Armor powers minus Permafrost (but the enemies I'm fighting aren't doing Cold or Fire, anyway), slotted out logically, plus Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping so I'm about at as much defense and resistance as I can get without IO bonuses, and I have Chilling Embrace and Icicles running. I felt squishy pre-Fighting pool, but figured it would get better once I had Tough and Weave and gotten them slotted out; now that I have, I only feel moderately less squishy. It's a great aggro-holding tank, aside from the random squishiness.
I think what bothers me is that defense has really variable performance. Sometimes you don't get hit and it's all fine and dandy, and sometimes the RNG just has it out for you and you get owned. Since practically any toon can softcap S/L these days, it feels insufficient to be dependent upon defense alone, particularly when dying tends to lead to a team wipe. I like my performance to be at least partially independent of whether or not my team sucks or not, and with sucking being more common than not sucking these days, I'm thinking that perhaps ice is not going to be my style unless I'm playing exclusively with my SG.
I've got an ice/fire tanker sitting at level 38 at the moment, and he continues to be awfully squishy. This is an SO build, but even against pure smash/lethal, he's something of a wuss.
My armors are slotted with three defenses, I have Tough with three resists, I have Weave with three defenses, I have Hoarfrost slotted three recharge three heal so it's maximally effective, I have Combat Jumping. I also have Energy Absorption slotted up fully, and I recognize it also gives a defense boost.
Now, I recognize that at 50, with IOs, I'll be able to (rather expensively, unfortunately) softcap at least S/L defense. But at the moment, I'm sitting at about 35% defense and 23% resist, fully slotted, minus Energy Absorption's brief buff. (Versus a stone tank's Granite, which would grant 20% defense and 50% resist unslotted.)
What do I do to not suck? I still have twelve levels to go to 50.
Since I chose a /fire secondary, I'm lacking the mitigation that I'd get with, say, SS. I do have Hibernate, but turning into a little block of ice makes me feel like a wuss, and the regen rate is nailbiting. I am teaming with people who can heal and buff, but I tend to PUG a lot, which means that actually getting a heal or buff is unreliable at best. (Fortitude, say, can help a lot, since it fills up the defense gap to the softcap and beyond, but the other day I was on a team where between buffs and whatnot I was at 62% defense according to the combat attributes monitor, but still would sometimes take enough hits in a row from an alpha strike that I might as well have been one-shot.)
Standard tanking tactics, i.e., gather and cluster up, no herding.