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I think you're making it bigger than it is. There's already a PvP flag in the code/programming. It gets turned on when you enter certain zones (Recluses Victory, Bloody Bay...) and turned off in others (RWZ, Cimmerora, all 'regular' zones...).|
Originally Posted by Riley_Delacroix
That opens up the can o' worms of split codebases. Adding that option to one special server means that it's going to by definition have different settings/code than the normal servers....
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Would it be difficult to allow this already-existing flag to be turned on in any zone and/or to limit this capability to one server? I'm not a gaming programmer, but I am a programmer nonetheless, and I don't think it would be difficult at all.
Rednames are free to correct me of course, in which case I'll drop the whole case. I'll agree that if it's difficult to do, there are better things to spend Dev time on.
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I doubt it would be difficult to create the /duel code. But trying to maintain multiple codebases across servers just slows everything in the development cycle down.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Would it be difficult to allow this already-existing flag to be turned on in any zone and/or to limit this capability to one server? I'm not a gaming programmer, but I am a programmer nonetheless, and I don't think it would be difficult at all.
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Sure, they could give us /duel on just one server. But would you be willing to have that if it added another month or two to the development of every issue, and weeks to every minor update?
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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No, if it were that difficult and added much time to development of other things, then I would be soundly against any form of '/dueling',... but I don't think it would be a difficult as you all are suggesting to limit it to a single server. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting_Whisper
I doubt it would be difficult to create the /duel code. But trying to maintain multiple codebases across servers just slows everything in the development cycle down.
Sure, they could give us /duel on just one server. But would you be willing to have that if it added another month or two to the development of every issue, and weeks to every minor update? |
As I said, the PvP Flag is already there (turns on when you go Recluse's Victory...), the /Duel command would turn this on in any Zone. Now, to limit PvP to just a few participants while everyone else can just stand around and watch in safety might require a bit more work, but once done essentially the same code would apply to all servers. Then, to limit it to one server I can't see requiring much more than a binary switch. In other words, there isn't a need for more than one code base. All Servers have the same code - all but one have a binary flag turned off.
But hey, I code in ASP.NET. CoX.Code isn't my language so maybe it's not that easy, but I suspect it wouldn't require near the developement time you are suggesting.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
No, if it were that difficult and added much time to development of other things, then I would be soundly against any form of '/dueling',... but I don't think it would be a difficult as you all are suggesting to limit it to a single server.
As I said, the PvP Flag is already there (turns on when you go Recluse's Victory...), the /Duel command would turn this on in any Zone. Now, to limit PvP to just a few participants while everyone else can just stand around and watch in safety might require a bit more work, but once done essentially the same code would apply to all servers. Then, to limit it to one server I can't see requiring much more than a binary switch. In other words, there isn't a need for more than one code base. All Servers have the same code - all but one have a binary flag turned off. But hey, I code in ASP.NET. CoX.Code isn't my language so maybe it's not that easy, but I suspect it wouldn't require near the developement time you are suggesting. |
Excuse me, but asp.net is not how the game's made. Standard code rant applies: you do not know how "easy" it is. We've been TOLD that it'd be impossible to maintain a separate database for a server that's "different" from all the others. It'd basically be a WHOLE different game.
That's why they can never merge the EU and NA servers - because they DO have to maintain an entirely different "game" on the EU servers (the language issues alone have caused most of that, I suspect).
It is neither worth their time, nor a good idea in the first place, to have ANY amount of world-wide pvp available. Plain and simple, NO.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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I am not saying creating a duel command would be that hard on its own, nor that making it only work on a single server would be that difficult.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I suspect it wouldn't require near the developement time you are suggesting.
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What I am saying is that once it's done, further changes to the game will take longer if /duel only exists on a single server. This is because they would then be running two distinct versions of the server code, and on top of developing in both environments, they must test both environments whenever a change is made.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I have an idea. It's a really great idea. Really. We should open up the game to griefing everywhere by allowing open PvP. Think about it. Demeaning and abusive /tell, /b and /l spam, entire groups of tardcicles congregating in a single zone and causing lag that makes costume contests seem downright zippy, hordes of rampaging jerks blocking entrances to missions deliberately in a concerted attempt to prevent players from escaping them...
Really, it'd be just bloody freaking great. Totally.
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If you'd stop your knee-jerking for a second, you'd note that I admitted I could be wrong about the ease of it all *and* I've said that were it not so simple as I think it is then I wouldn't want it implemented. There are other things I want *alot* more. Furthermore, although I don't code in the game's language, I've coded in enough languages to know that there are lots of commonalities in programming.|
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
Excuse me, but asp.net is not how the game's made. Standard code rant applies: you do not know how "easy" it is. We've been TOLD that it'd be impossible to maintain a separate database for a server that's "different" from all the others. It'd basically be a WHOLE different game.
That's why they can never merge the EU and NA servers - because they DO have to maintain an entirely different "game" on the EU servers (the language issues alone have caused most of that, I suspect). It is neither worth their time, nor a good idea in the first place, to have ANY amount of world-wide pvp available. Plain and simple, NO. |
Here's one: the binary switch, flag, boolean value, 1/0, On/off, whatever you choose to call it. With a single yes or no, you can controls whole swaths of code. So...Once More...Why is there a need for *separate database* for a single server when basically all servers can operate with the exact same code, but one simply has a Single Binary Flag set to *True* (the global PvP flag). One single byte does not a separate Database make...
While I don't know the specifics of the game's code, I do know the generalities of coding and what looks to be more or less a binary switch, and the PvP flag certainly looks like one
You don't really know how hard it would be anymore than I know how easy it would be. I personally suspect it would be something relatively easy for the Devs to if they so chose, while you think it's earthshatteringly difficult. If they ever decide to implement it on *one* server, then you can quite easily never make a character there
QR
I doubt this would be implemented any time soon. There are specified zones for PvP along with the Arena. Finding anyone of those options takes a moment, if that, and once inside you'll find like-minded people to duel.
You won't get turned down left and right and then become frustrated resulting in a log off. Cause, thats what will happen. PvP fails at this game because most players do not enjoy the mechanics and/or the design of PvP all together.
So while you might think this is a great idea, it's actually an absolute waste of development time/resources since there are already PvP zones, the Arena and the fact PvP population is very small which draws very little attention from resources.
By your own admission you do NOT know the code.
There is no such thing as a single binary on-off switch that could possibly affect a PVP on/off mode. Why?
Because as you should know - behind that switch is a whole slew of changes to the data that must go through and NOT affect anything else. Come on. You should know better if you claim to be a programmer in ANY language.
And again: they CANNOT do something "just on one server". Ever. It's all or nothing. That is, again, why the Korean and Euro servers were and always will be *separate things* from the North American servers. They served a *different game*. Enough is different that it would be an impossibility to maintain.
And also once more: there is no circumstance that an ingame thing like this which could allow tremendous griefing, should ever be one forgotten toggle away. Ever.
We have been given pvp zones and the arena. If folks aren't using those, they aren't going to want world-wide pvp either. And: those that WOULD like it?
Frankly, I don't want to play with those people. Ever.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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I actually don't care that much - I almost never PvP haha|
Originally Posted by Clouded
So while you might think this is a great idea, it's actually an absolute waste of development time/resources since there are already PvP zones, the Arena and the fact PvP population is very small which draws very little attention from resources.
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However, *IF* global PvP/Dueling were relatively easy to implement and *IF* the devs restricted it to a single server, I fail to see why that puts all the naysayers such in such a hissy...
Note my two big *IFs* above - if either is false (which only the Devs really know) then I'm against global PvP as well.
*sigh* let me shoot you down one peg at a time...
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Your attempts to discredit my programming knowledge nonwithstanding, how do you know a whole slew of changes are needed? A PvP flag already exists in the code. It gets turned on/off depending which zone your in. It's already there - no code needed. The additional code is simply adding new scenarios/events that turn the switch on.|
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
By your own admission you do NOT know the code.
There is no such thing as a single binary on-off switch that could possibly affect a PVP on/off mode. Why? Because as you should know - behind that switch is a whole slew of changes to the data that must go through and NOT affect anything else. Come on. You should know better if you claim to be a programmer in ANY language. |
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| And again: they CANNOT do something "just on one server". Ever. It's all or nothing. That is, again, why the Korean and Euro servers were and always will be *separate things* from the North American servers. They served a *different game*. Enough is different that it would be an impossibility to maintain. |
How do I control this look? Via a Single 1-byte variable. Despite the different look and behaviour, every single deployment of this application (now running in 26 different states) uses the Exact-Same-Code-and-Exact-Same-Database-Structure.
Oops, but I didn't do it using the game's code, so I don't know what the flip I'm talking about...
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| And also once more: there is no circumstance that an ingame thing like this which could allow tremendous griefing, should ever be one forgotten toggle away. Ever. |
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| We have been given pvp zones and the arena. If folks aren't using those, they aren't going to want world-wide pvp either. And: those that WOULD like it? |
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| Frankly, I don't want to play with those people. Ever. |
Okay, here's a bit of logic for you.
What about the way individual powers behave in PvP?
Perhaps the coding would not be difficult to flag PvP on and off, I wouldn't know, as I have zero programming experience.
The way PvP currently functions you have all kinds of rules that don't exist in the PvE game.
A hold is limited to a 4 second base in PvP, no such limit in PvE. Doesn't SEEM like a big deal....until you think about the situation of an AoE hold that hits both an NPC and a player. Which version of the hold gets applied? It would likely have 2 different to-hit checks it would have to make, because the base to-hit is different. In PvE your base to-hit is 75% for most things. In PvP it is 50%. Does it use the 75% and give an unfair advantage against the player? Or does it use the 50% and be less effective against the NPC?
Telekinesis is the worst offender of this. Does the toggle stay on, leaving the player helpless? Or does it cut out after 4 seconds, making the power a waste of endurance against the NPC?
Even damage tables are different between them. Does a cone attack targeting both a player and an NPC use the PvE or PvP damage table for that attack?
There's a whole slew of problems that no one has even addressed here. Specifically how do you balance between PvP rules and PvE rules when you're in Perigrine Island?
It could be as simple as your rules change depending on whether you are flagged for PvP or not. Travel Suppression, Diminished Returns, hold limitations.
A scrapper who is flagged for PvP would suddenly be a sitting duck against any NPC with a hold power, since his mez protection no longer works.
THAT is why I was so against the idea earlier. It would involve inflicting the PvP rules on players in the PvE game. Which, make no bones about it, WILL drive people away from the game.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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"Simply?" Prove it.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
*sigh* let me shoot you down one peg at a time...
Your attempts to discredit my programming knowledge nonwithstanding, how do you know a whole slew of changes are needed? A PvP flag already exists in the code. It gets turned on/off depending which zone your in. It's already there - no code needed. The additional code is simply adding new scenarios/events that turn the switch on. |
Are the powers or the *zone* flagged as PVP on or off? Given they can strip effects (such as confuses) going between PVP and PVE zones, but not PVE-PVE, I'd say it's a very good guess it's the zone.
And as has been mentioned, how do you handle NPCs? They're JUST as affected by the zone code - my tanks can ignore COT mages, for instance, but Agony mages in BB (for instance) can hold my tank easily. PVP rules everywhere? No thanks. Not even on one server.
Here's an experiment. Take a Dominator and land a hold on a Brute in a PVP zone (it'd have to be Warburg, unless you can get confused.) Now go find a Succubus and land a hold on the same brute. Does it behave the same way on either side? I can tell you the answer right now, but let's see if you can figure it out.
"Simply," huh?
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| Nice. Perhaps if you had ANY experience programming. Lessee, I've created an application that handles Worker's Comp, Dental, and Medical Claims. Depending on how a user enters the application, the GUI interface and the reports can look dramatically different (Work Comp and Health have many diff. govt related rules). Many think it's two different programs. |
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| How do I control this look? Via a Single 1-byte variable. Despite the different look and behaviour, every single deployment of this application (now running in 26 different states) uses the Exact-Same-Code-and-Exact-Same-Database-Structure. |
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| Oops, but I didn't do it using the game's code, so I don't know what the flip I'm talking about... |
"If you think you know how the game works, you're wrong. If you think you know how it's coded from your own programming experience, you're really wrong."
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| You mean even if it's only allowed on one clearly marked Server where you know what you're getting when you make a toon there? Oh yeah, you don't even think it's possible... |
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| May or may not be true. I personally believe the PvP mechanics are broken (which is whole 'nuther issue). That's what drove most players away, not that they simply hate the concept of PvP period. |
Well guys, we just don't know do we?f I've already admitted I *could* be wrong (check my previous posts). Can you?
Again, I could be wrong about the relative ease of it - I simply don't think I am and, I gave my reasons and speculations why. I no more know for certain than any of you who claim that it'd be extrememly hard. We are all guessing. I'll admit that I don't know how the game engine is coded exactly, but I feel my hypotheticals are backed by a lot of experience in how programming works, so until one of you with *Game Coding* Experience tells me this would be very difficult to accomplish (or a Dev, of course), I think I'm more likely right.
And Memphis Bill, none of my points had anything to do with whether the Playerbase wants this or not, nor the politics of it all (what server?), nor am I arguing that PvP mechanics themselves don't really work well while coinciding with PvE. Those are all valid but all I was debating was would it be relatively easy code-wise to setup a gbobal PvP flag.
Anyhow, this thing (Global PvP) isn't gonna happen, no matter how easy or hard, now is it?
That's pretty much it. Have a good 'un 
I think it would be cool to have invasion events where a group of villains can TP into Atlas. Or heros could TP into Gradville.
Not really sure how they could pull it off withit it getting exploited or griefed, but I think it would be neat to do if it was done properly.
But PvP is pretty much dead to me. I dislike the fact that my powers function differntly there. Also, without any reward system in place, I have to reason to PvP anyway.
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*starts a new character, skips Outbreak, zones into Atlas Park*|
Originally Posted by JohnX
I think it would be cool to have invasion events where a group of villains can TP into Atlas. Or heros could TP into Gradville.
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Oh, hey, contact waypoint. I'll just meander o-*gank*
Um... okay... *goes to hospital*
Let's try that again. *exits hospital*
Now, let's see... ah, my contact is that wa-*gank*
Ha ha, very funny. You guys! *waves finger and smiles, clicks hospital button*
Now, time to get that mission! *exits hospital*
I'm going to make it this ti-*gank*
...
Come on, guys, I just want to get to my contact so I can pick up a mission. Why don't you go fight that higher level character standing AFK over there? *goes to hospital again*
*exits hospital*
*ultra-ganked before the screen changes*
-_-
Seriously, it's not amusing any more. Let me get to my contact, please.
*insta-gank*
*gank-a-tron*
*lol-gank*
*wedgie-gank*
*gank gank gank gank gank*
/quit
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| Not really sure how they could pull it off withit it getting exploited or griefed, |
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| but I think it would be neat to do if it was done properly. |
Well, yes. You've just described the current PvP system as well. And if they (the developers) can't get conventional PvP tweaked right, a non-convential-live -in-your-face-PvP system is certainly gonig to be full of fail as well.
I was just sayin':
"Not really sure how they could pull it off with it it getting exploited or griefed, but I think it would be neat to do if it was done properly."
I mean seriouslly, we have two seperate MMOs here. With heros and and villains...The fact that the two world exist independant of each other just doesn't seem 'complete' to me. The two worlds should be affecting each other somehow.
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They can and do affect each other. I just don't see why the hero and villain PLAYERS have to affect each other. Villains can fight heroes and other villains, heroes can fight villains and other heroes. There is no restriction as to which side these heroes and villains come from. The two sides of the game already affect each other. The hero and villain PLAYERS just don't affect each other, and I'd rather keep it that way.
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Originally Posted by JohnX
I mean seriouslly, we have two seperate MMOs here. With heros and and villains...The fact that the two world exist independant of each other just doesn't seem 'complete' to me. The two worlds should be affecting each other somehow.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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qft.
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Originally Posted by samuel_tow
they can and do affect each other. I just don't see why the hero and villain players have to affect each other. Villains can fight heroes and other villains, heroes can fight villains and other heroes. There is no restriction as to which side these heroes and villains come from. The two sides of the game already affect each other. The hero and villain players just don't affect each other, and i'd rather keep it that way.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Not in the slightest. A level 1 coming in for the first time to the game is extremely different from the level-averaged character who shows up in a PVP zone. It's at least a little more fair at the outset, plus *you know you're in a pvp zone*. |
Originally Posted by JohnX
Well, yes. You've just described the current PvP system as well.
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They're kept separate because most people *do not play pvp in this game*. Spread it into the pve zones and you WILL lose most of the player base in one fell swoop. Hell I think if they made an April Fool's gag of it that looked convincing enough, they would have people leaving then too.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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lol. thats ridiculous.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
*
If you mean "result in enough subscription cancellations to make the economic recession look like a happy Christmas memory by comparison" when you say "neat", I agree. |
You guys cant wave the "subscription cancellations"-flag at EVERY idea.it makes u lose credibility.like massively
Also it would help if people who want to express they dont like an idea, would at least READ what the idea is about.
Guy talks about raid-like adventures into zones of the opposing side -> nay-sayer talks about STARTING in Atlas after outbreak!
I mean at least TRY. Is that asking too much?
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I'm not interested in other people having raid-like adventures on my side and killing me in the process. How's that?
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Originally Posted by TresCool
Guy talks about raid-like adventures into zones of the opposing side
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The same way not being able to spell "you" does?|
Originally Posted by TresCool
lol. thats ridiculous.
You guys cant wave the "subscription cancellations"-flag at EVERY idea.it makes u lose credibility.like massively |
No, probably not.
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Also it would help if people who want to express they dont like an idea, would at least READ what the idea is about. Guy talks about raid-like adventures into zones of the opposing side -> nay-sayer talks about STARTING in Atlas after outbreak! I mean at least TRY. Is that asking too much? |
Try using that gray stuff between your ears as more than a windbreak. Is that too much to ask?
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If this is implemented you will be ganked. Over and over and over. That's not a threat, that's something every player who is not insanely-prepared, new or just unlucky will have to go through, and they will then all quit because they don't want to pay $15 a month to get ganked all the time.
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Originally Posted by TresCool
lol. thats ridiculous.
You guys cant wave the "subscription cancellations"-flag at EVERY idea.it makes u lose credibility.like massively Also it would help if people who want to express they dont like an idea, would at least READ what the idea is about. Guy talks about raid-like adventures into zones of the opposing side -> nay-sayer talks about STARTING in Atlas after outbreak! I mean at least TRY. Is that asking too much? |
To me, the solution is simple. Implement a global PvP/dueling feature, but it only works for a single server. If it turns about to be really popular and griefless, maybe add another server.
Even though players don't like PvP, I'd bet that server would become rather popular.
I can't see how anyone would have any issues with this...
That opens up the can o' worms of split codebases. Adding that option to one special server means that it's going to by definition have different settings/code than the normal servers. That means whenever the devs add a new patch/Issue they'll at least double their debug/QA cycle time since they'll have to test all the new codes' interaction with both the default server code and the "pvp server" code. It'll make isolating bugs harder and more time consuming, make issues take longer to get resolved (and Issues longer to get released) and it'd serve at most ten or perhaps fifteen percent of the playerbase. That's a lot of time and money that'd be in effect pissed away, and it would become an ongoing expense since it's not like the designers and the coders sit on their butts for 2.5 months and then bang an Issue out in two caffeine-fueled crunch weeks (I hope
Ultimately it's not really a sound investment of resources since the effected portion of the population is so small, the costs in time, money, and manpower are so high, and as you can see just from this thread the playerbase is in general quite vehemently opposed to such a change that the PR backlash presents a not-inconsiderable threat to the game and studio's continuing survival.
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