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Again, argument by analogy is never valid. It falls under inductive, not deductive, logic. Furthermore, he isn't making any kind of logical argument at all. He's making a comparison between my suggestion of incorporating a duel function ingame and asking for ashtrays in a hospital. The problem with this comparison is that it assumes that the /duel function cannot be incorporated in any way other than one that will lead to substantial harrassment of other players (i.e. more substantial than any extant chat function currently does).| And as previously noted, the analogy is not invalidated by a difference in scale |
Nice cherry picking by the way, given that this analogy is part of his ad hominum which doesn't seem to concern you.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Right, that's exactly what the pvp vets said. That's why I led all those pvp educational sessions and organized all the newbie events: to keep winning and to keep casual people from enjoying themselves.| Right: the hardcore people. Had lots more non-hardcore people come in and said "hey that's a really good idea! I won't have to figure this out the hard way any more!" it may have been different. As it was, perhaps the content of the suggestions were more akin to "we want to keep winning and keep others from enjoying themselves" and less "let's get lots more people enjoying this event". |
Lemme reiterate something that has been pointed out repeatedly since i13 came out: it didn't solve the problem. It actually made it worse for casual players. It made fewer builds viable. If I could beat you before, it's even easier now.
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| Right. Because the few hardcore folks who have stayed are still doing the same crap that they did to prevent other people from enjoying it now, only with slightly different tactics. I see nothing wrong with this picture. |
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| Better is a highly subjective term here. Better for SOME small number of people, but honestly there are so many more who just wouldn't even NOTICE if PVP completely vanished from this game entirely. You know this to be true. |
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Let's talk about quality versus quantity, then. In order to appeal to a pvp-oriented PLAYER, a game really does need to be built from the ground up with PVP in mind. |
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| This is not one of those games. It's always been rather a joke in this game, that pvp isn't all that great. I've seen scathing reviews of it, and even the hardcore players who HAVE conquored the methods here, laugh at it at times. If it's such a joke, why defend it so hard when there are other, way more appropriate places to play pvp style? Other games - like Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress and Counterstrike - are ALL about pvp, and leave nothing much to the imagination there. But they have different styles of play too, admittedly in a much more restricted whole game environment. |
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| Anyway - enjoy what you get. Because obviously, the devs DO hate you. And villains. And furries. So clearly you should adopt a furry, pvp villain as the mascot of "improve or die" ... >_> /sarcasm |
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Here's a shocker--the PvP system is ALREADY configured in a way to minimize the impact on other players. Any changes to that system would make PvP more invasive into the PvE game.| I've already discussed how an idea like this would have to be done in a way that minimized the impact on other players. Maybe you need to review what I've actually written. Your "labels" (i.e. personal attacks) aren't something I've earned. They aren't something that should be part of the discussion. Read the forum guidelines on flaming. |
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| "Discontent so vast". In other words loathing. Apparently I'm a bully for wording the same thought a different way. |
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| No. It would have to be done in a way that wouldn't lose that chunk. |
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| Many of the statements in this thread boil down to "if you don't like it, leave. Tough cookies." Above you write "accept it or go elsewhere." Clearly you are comfortable directing these sentiments to people you think don't matter. If you think somebody is trying to express something like that towards you, suddenly you're being bullied. |
If you ask for something that you KNOW would cause misery to a large number of people in order make a very small group of people a little happier, then you have no sense of community. The very point of boards like this is to foster that community and help improve the game by making it more fun for the most people possible. When you, or someone like you, proposes an idea that upsets more people than it pleases, you show blatant disregard for that community. Sometimes, for the health of the game, you have to bite the bullet and accept that your idea would do more harm than good. If you don't, and you keep advocating an idea that has widespread disapproval, then it's clear you care more about yourself than making CoH more fun for everyone. In other words, you're already an outsider to the CoH community by choice. Telling you to take a hike would be redundant.
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| The main reason pvp fails to gain traction with the hardcore pve crowd is that cox pvp is essentially "player killing player." |
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| The pvp community has asked for goal driven pvp content for years, things like capture the flag where victory would not hinge on farming weaker players. Other complaints were lack of a reward system and the concern over wrecking a pve build in order to pvp. |
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Ever do a server population check pre AE? I can guaran-fricken-tee you that that the vast majority of those over 31 players are running AE, can you guess what kind of AE missions?|
Originally Posted by Shatterjack
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It's also pretending that anyone in Atlas Park over level 30 is farming by definition. |
I'd be confident saying that I could easily expand that to include almost everyone over lvl 15 in Atlas, but I figured I'd use a level range that no one would be..... well I'm not here to attack people.
I say no to /duel almost entirely because pvp is just a mess right now. i13 introduced a rule set that is just horrid for integrating pvp into any pve environment. If pvp was decent here I'd personally greatly enjoy at least some open world pvp and would probably welcome a /duel feature similar to the one being implemented in CO. To each their own, but seeing how it will never happen even if CO and DCUO miraculously jumped to 1 million subs due entirely to pvp, it is just a pipe dream.
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| Here's a shocker--the PvP system is ALREADY configured in a way to minimize the impact on other players. Any changes to that system would make PvP more invasive into the PvE game. |
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| Can't be done, and you know it. The current system is the best compromise available. |
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|
Quote: "Discontent so vast". In other words loathing. Apparently I'm a bully for wording the same thought a different way. You fail at comprehension. Let me give you an example. Let's say you're playing in a game where they have worldwide PvP, and someone is trying to goad you into fighting over and over again. As a result, you log off in disgust. Would you say that you HATE that player? I doubt it. If you hated them, you'd probably try to track them down. Instead, you just log off in disgust. |
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| Much like I don't hate you--I find your selfishness and dismissive nature annoying, but I don't HATE you. Or PvP for that matter. |
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| Here's the thing--I'm a big believer in majority rule. |
Likewise you and your perception of what the majority of people playing this want don't define the cox community. The community does not belong to you. It is not defined by you. You are merely a part of it, like anyone else posting here.
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| Telling you to take a hike would be redundant. |
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Non AE reasons that a 40-50 has been in Atlas:|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Ever do a server population check pre AE? I can guaran-fricken-tee you that that the vast majority of those over 31 players are running AE, can you guess what kind of AE missions?
I'd be confident saying that I could easily expand that to include almost everyone over lvl 15 in Atlas, but I figured I'd use a level range that no one would be..... well I'm not here to attack people. |
- Recluse's Victory
- Finally doing the Midnighter introduction arc (Cure the lost sends you to speak to Azuria and the one Rikti.)
- Rikti War Zone (Vanguard base)
- Paying base rent.
- Starting a SG base.
- Missions (just finished up World Wide Red again. Three guesses what zones I ended up in at the end of that.)
- Hosting costume contests.
- SG recruiting
- Giving random awards/buffs/healing to lowbies.
- Using Wentworth's in between all of the above (not to mention crafting and adding IOs to the base bin, it's more convenient than Steel and only slightly less so than Talos.)
If anything, even before AE we've had more and more reasons added for high level characters to be in Atlas - and that's not counting zombie and rikti raids. I know my 50s have found themselves there frequently.
Edit: Drop it to "Over 15" and you can add the cape and aura missions, too.
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You know what's really getting old? Your strategy of dismissing arguements without actually addressing them, and then pretending to take offense. If you were really as unable to take criticism as you pretend to be, you would be ill-suited for PvP--I don't buy it. I highly doubt that when I describe you as dismissive and selfish that you are wounded to your core.| This is getting old. Debate the ideas. You're complaining that my stance will lead to griefing, yet you can't even discuss the matter without flaming me. It's hypocritical and not conducive to having a discussion. Enough. |
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| There's one majority that controls this game: the devs. The majority of the players do not rule this game. I'm sure there are things that the majority of players would like to see happen that the devs will not provide: like, say, a double xp weekend every month. |
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| Likewise you and your perception of what the majority of people playing this want don't define the cox community. The community does not belong to you. It is not defined by you. You are merely a part of it, like anyone else posting here. |
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| If you want pvp with MMO trappings, this was a good place to be. The long term pvpers stayed with cox for years to pvp with this system despite the fact that they despised everything else about the game. I've been pvping since I4. |
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| Of course it would be redundant. You've already called me a selfish jerk pvp smacktard. Your extreme bias is blatantly obvious. Also your agenda to stiffle any discussion through personal attacks. |
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Boy would you love me. I give completely different meanings to words on a regular basis, drives my roommate nuts sometimes. Although I think it makes our arguments and debates fun.| you're merely defining the word too narrowly |
Anywho, I gotta side with the "no /dual or open world pvp" crowd. Ive played a number of games where some guy 15 - 20 lvls higher than me starts sending me /dual requests as soon as I hit the lvl they can send them to me, and they do it repeatedly.
The usual little pop-up in the center of my screen is annoying as hell and I already get enough of that with blind invites in this game.
"YOU DID NOT READ THE THREAD. GO READ THE LONG, LONG THREAD.
Then, perhaps your butt cheeks will relinquish their grip on your chin." -The_Zekiran
Hey Solicio & Co
About that "majority rule":
Have you personally spoken to each and every single CoX user?
You (you know who you are) are using people for your own argumentation, like they were basically YOU.
"We are the majority,We wont like anything like this ever, we will leave the game"
This is pretty much the epicentre of your whole argumentation.
Do you have sheets of surveys lying on your desk, backing up all these claims on what everybody wants and doesnt want?
I know that the majority of the userbase isnt in this game to play PvP.
But that doesnt mean all these people share your sentiments on everything that is being said here. Everyone has an individual stance on things.
Let them have their say (if they want), and speak for yourself and your personal experience.
For example, I myself know a bunch of people who dont play pvp in CoX right now, but would be interested in it, if things changed -one of these people being myself.
I´ve played this game for over 3 years now and I just think its time to work on things that are already ingame, but obviously dont work.
This is what these threads are really about.
If you are just here to say "No, there is nothing wrong with PvP.I am against ideas that involve changing anything about PvP" , then say it and thats it.
No point in trying to make people stop discussing ideas nevertheless.
Tre
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It's not necessary to interview every single CoH user. You can get a good representative sample by:|
Originally Posted by TresCool
Hey Solicio & Co About that "majority rule":
Have you personally spoken to each and every single CoX user? You (you know who you are) are using people for your own argumentation, like they were basically YOU. |
1. Reading older PvP threads like this one and counting those in favor and against.
2. Datamining the PvP zones
3. Sending out a survey
I doubt you'd need to do any of those things though-I think you're already aware how unpopular this idea is.
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|
I know that the majority of the userbase isnt in this game to play PvP. But that doesnt mean all these people share your sentiments on everything that is being said here. Everyone has an individual stance on things. Let them have their say (if they want), and speak for yourself and your personal experience. |
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| For example, I myself know a bunch of people who dont play pvp in CoX right now, but would be interested in it, if things changed -one of these people being myself. |
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| I´ve played this game for over 3 years now and I just think its time to work on things that are already ingame, but obviously dont work. |
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| you are just here to say "No, there is nothing wrong with PvP.I am against ideas that involve changing anything about PvP" , then say it and thats it. |
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
Sadly PvP has never been properly implemented in this game. Issue 13 brought about sweeping changes which PvP hasn't recovered from. Everything from travel suppression to heal degradation and the complete removal of all status protection has left most of the PvP areas completely deserted.
Mind you, PvP was no picnic pre-I13 either.
Dominators could permanently hold a character until death, leaving them completely detoggled and defensless. Blasters could pretty much one-or-two shot anything that moved. Stalkers could virtually insta-kill anyone without HP bonuses with a quick Assassin's Strike combo.
But you know, despite all of that, I'd still advocate going back to those rules because it made so much more sense than the existing ones and because they were actually more enjoyable. People actually went to PvP areas besides Recluse's Victory!
Ironic that the very changes they made to get more people INTO PvP were the very changes which drove so many people out.
Characters:
The Heroic Mary Grace (50)
The Mystical Thunderspark (50)
The Candy-loving Little Jenny (50)
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We have the developers' data mining showing that PvP is not something the majority of players engage in.|
Originally Posted by TresCool
Hey Solicio & Co
About that "majority rule": Have you personally spoken to each and every single CoX user? |
We have PvP zones and Arenas which are empty or nearly empty all of the time, and even at their peak populations in the past never represented a significant portion of the player base, corroborating the data mining and directly visible to players.
We have developer posts stating that they are aware of the majority's preference not to engage in PvP, and that they do not intend to force players to do so.
We have changes to the game, such as removing PvP "talk to" contacts from PvP zones as a direct response to player outcry over being "forced into PvP".
We don't have to open a dialog with every individual player. The facts speak for themselves.
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| You (you know who you are) are using people for your own argumentation, like they were basically YOU. |
You have exactly what you accuse us of, nothing but your argument and the attitude of speaking for everyone as though they were you.
Ball's back in your court. We have our head count, per the developers' data mines, statements and changes to the game. You're going to have to come up with something better than opinions, theory and demands if you want this discussion to continue productively.
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There's nothing to adress in you posts. Your stance is "I don't want it. The majority doesn't want it. End of discussion." That position has been reiterated in this thread ad nauseum. You've made your point. Beyond that you're just trying to flame me. | You know what's really getting old? Your strategy of dismissing arguements without actually addressing them, and then pretending to take offense. If you were really as unable to take criticism as you pretend to be, you would be ill-suited for PvP--I don't buy it. I highly doubt that when I describe you as dismissive and selfish that you are wounded to your core. |
I can take criticism. But you aren't making any that's relevant to the topic at hand. I'm not wounded to the core over your comments, they're just irrelevant and tedius to wade through. And the forum usage policy proscribes personal attacks.
You took offense at my use of the words fear and loathing. Then you went on to describe things yourself in synonymous terms. Ooops.
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| Yes, I have a pro-CoH bias. It's clear (as illustrated above) that you are completely biased against it to the point of *hatred*. Which bias is stronger? Which one is more potentially detrimental to the game? |
This is a suggestion board. Any account holder should be able to come here and discuss their idea without having someone like you try to smother is with whack character assessments lol.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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I'm still waiting for the new contribution you have to make in this thread, other than "You don't want it, but I DO." If you want this "feature" so badly, then the burden of introducing a way for it work without upseting the playerbase rests on you. Instead, all you've done is take issue with the way our debate was conducted. Either futher your cause by making a suggestion, or admit you have no point.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
There's nothing to adress in you posts. Your stance is "I don't want it. The majority doesn't want it. End of discussion." That position has been reiterated in this thread ad nauseum. You've made your point. Beyond that you're just trying to flame me.
|
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| You make an appeal to the majority in order to make your bias seem more significant. |
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| I like designing builds and pvp. I would like to see pvp improved and expanded upon. That doesn't make me anti-cox because there's a specific area I'd like to see improved. |
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| If you want pvp with MMO trappings, this was a good place to be. The long term pvpers stayed with cox for years to pvp with this system despite the fact that they despised everything else about the game. I've been pvping since I4. |
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| This is a suggestion board. Any account holder should be able to come here and discuss their idea without having someone like you try to smother is with whack character assessments lol. |
1. It would dilute an already thin PvP population over all the zones, emptying the already next to useless PvP zones. Instead of a place to go where PvP was expected, PvP'ers would hear a constant stream of "Leave me alone, I'm not interested." and "I'm not here to PvP."
2. It would upset the majority of the playerbase, which has no desire to see PvP intrude upon PvE play.
Now, if you're done taking offense and are ready to debate the merits of your "idea", you're welcome to start there.
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Done trolling? Excellent.| Now, if you're done taking offense and are ready to debate the merits of your "idea", you're welcome to start there. |
Here's a proposal. The initial idea is for cross faction pvp in open pve zones. For example, a villain in Cap au Diablo accesses a contact or terminal in that zone indicating they want a duel. They are transported to the corresponding hero zone. Upon arrival, they are phased and enemy chat is disabled. They do not challenge a specific person to a duel. They are matched randomly with someone hero side that flags themselves for a duel. The duel ends when someone is defeated, time runs out, or one of the participants clicks to exit the zone. The participants are visible but do not interact with other people or npcs in the zone.
Unlike zones and arena, there is no exemp function to this. You can only duel in an area that is appropriate for your level. So a level 50 villain, for example, would only be able to use it in Grandville.
pros:
1. People can take a break from leveling their characters to pvp, with less concern about requiring a polished build or encountering unfavorable odds.
2. People in zone can safely watch pvp if they choose. Adds flavor to zones aside from street sweeping and occassional costume contests.
3. Novelty of pvping in large pve areas under restricted conditions.
4. Less hassle than setting up an arena duel, less likelihood of predictible outcome.
cons:
1. technical issue relating to flagging, phase mechanics, etc. may make idea untenable.
2. Resources required to implement the idea may exceed interest in having it implemented.
3. Issues of lag, exploiting, etc. endemic to any change in the game system.
Blacklisted
"I'AM SATANS FAVORITE CHILD!!"
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Glad you agree with me because what you just described comes no where near accounting for the numbers and w/e percentage can be attributed to the activities you described taking away from the farming count of 31+ would be eclipsed by adding in all the other non-31+ farming going on... and in other zones too.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Non AE reasons that a 40-50 has been in Atlas:
- Recluse's Victory - Finally doing the Midnighter introduction arc (Cure the lost sends you to speak to Azuria and the one Rikti.) - Rikti War Zone (Vanguard base) - Paying base rent. - Starting a SG base. - Missions (just finished up World Wide Red again. Three guesses what zones I ended up in at the end of that.) - Hosting costume contests. - SG recruiting - Giving random awards/buffs/healing to lowbies. - Using Wentworth's in between all of the above (not to mention crafting and adding IOs to the base bin, it's more convenient than Steel and only slightly less so than Talos.) If anything, even before AE we've had more and more reasons added for high level characters to be in Atlas - and that's not counting zombie and rikti raids. I know my 50s have found themselves there frequently. Edit: Drop it to "Over 15" and you can add the cape and aura missions, too. |
The number I saw the other night led me to state ~22% of the server was trying to participate in farming activities. I have no doubt that was a conservative estimate. (and I've only checked a couple times, so that is hardly a significant sample size)
I don't see it as a bad thing though. I like it now. But it does support what I said earlier that players can adjust to the environment (and possibly even thrive). Anyone saying that a well implemented /duel feature would "kill the game" is being disingenuous, or at best, is promoting their own agenda.
Again though, I don't want that feature in this game either given the current mechanics of pvp. Under the current pvp rules it would be an impossibility to implement well and would just be a gong show.
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You are barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid, just as others before you have.|
Originally Posted by TresCool
Hey Solicio & Co
About that "majority rule": Have you personally spoken to each and every single CoX user? You (you know who you are) are using people for your own argumentation, like they were basically YOU. "We are the majority,We wont like anything like this ever, we will leave the game" This is pretty much the epicentre of your whole argumentation. Do you have sheets of surveys lying on your desk, backing up all these claims on what everybody wants and doesnt want? I know that the majority of the userbase isnt in this game to play PvP. But that doesnt mean all these people share your sentiments on everything that is being said here. Everyone has an individual stance on things. Let them have their say (if they want), and speak for yourself and your personal experience. For example, I myself know a bunch of people who dont play pvp in CoX right now, but would be interested in it, if things changed -one of these people being myself. I´ve played this game for over 3 years now and I just think its time to work on things that are already ingame, but obviously dont work. This is what these threads are really about. If you are just here to say "No, there is nothing wrong with PvP.I am against ideas that involve changing anything about PvP" , then say it and thats it. No point in trying to make people stop discussing ideas nevertheless. Tre |
You are failing to realize that people actually enjoy 30 of the 37 hero accessible zones having less than 5 people in them at most times.
Why they enjoy that in an MMO is beyond me, but they do. You'll hear almost identical arguments when server mergers are discussed. A few small legitimate hurdles are brought up and everyone latches on to them because they like the status quo.
I'd love to play a super power based MMO that had hundreds of thousands of players zooming around and you never felt alone. That game doesn't exist at this point in time. You are discussing things that could expand the target market of the game, but people already playing this game by and large don't want that.
If they are enjoying something then the idea of "rocking the boat" is very hard to entertain. And this isn't just a pve vs pvp player thing either, just look at how most pvp'ers didn't want them to change the pvp rules despite i12 pvp being pretty inaccessible for a larger audience. They enjoyed i12 pvp and saw no reason for significant change even though exactly like the pve game it was often very difficult to find good action without putting in a lot of effort to find it.
tl;dr version: you are asking the wrong people and the answer you are primarily receiving will never change. You could have data that your idea (any idea, not necessarily this one) would triple the game population and you'd still get a resounding "no" because the people you are asking don't want that, not if it means any kind of fundamental change to the system they enjoy.
I really don't see how a /duel feature could be 'well implemented'.
Given that we already have Arenas in most zones, but are barely used, I think it could be safe to assume that most players just aren't interested in PvP. If two players meet and wanna duel, they can go to an arena, the one in Pocket D even functions cross-server. Open-air /duelling would cause nothing but problems.
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This more than anything says alot. I just don't think it would a feature used by that many folks.
|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I really don't see how a /duel feature could be 'well implemented'.
Given that we already have Arenas in most zones, but are barely used, I think it could be safe to assume that most players just aren't interested in PvP. If two players meet and wanna duel, they can go to an arena, the one in Pocket D even functions cross-server. Open-air /duelling would cause nothing but problems. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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True, except that he has no data of such. In fact there is very MUCH data that this game's playerbase as a whole DOESN'T enjoy pre-i13 or post i13 pvp. Data that others above have alluded to, some of which comes directly from the devs.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
You are barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid, just as others before you have.
You are failing to realize that people actually enjoy 30 of the 37 hero accessible zones having less than 5 people in them at most times. Why they enjoy that in an MMO is beyond me, but they do. You'll hear almost identical arguments when server mergers are discussed. A few small legitimate hurdles are brought up and everyone latches on to them because they like the status quo. I'd love to play a super power based MMO that had hundreds of thousands of players zooming around and you never felt alone. That game doesn't exist at this point in time. You are discussing things that could expand the target market of the game, but people already playing this game by and large don't want that. If they are enjoying something then the idea of "rocking the boat" is very hard to entertain. And this isn't just a pve vs pvp player thing either, just look at how most pvp'ers didn't want them to change the pvp rules despite i12 pvp being pretty inaccessible for a larger audience. They enjoyed i12 pvp and saw no reason for significant change even though exactly like the pve game it was often very difficult to find good action without putting in a lot of effort to find it. tl;dr version: you are asking the wrong people and the answer you are primarily receiving will never change. You could have data that your idea (any idea, not necessarily this one) would triple the game population and you'd still get a resounding "no" because the people you are asking don't want that, not if it means any kind of fundamental change to the system they enjoy. |
MUCH of which anyone with two wits can check just by checking how many folks are using the Arena/pvp zones during the day compared to how many are using, say I don't know, the AE, which is probably the most mind numbing repetitive thing folks do repeatedly hour after hour--despite what you think of farming AE is the worst example of grind if we are really honest. If more folks are doing something that grindy that says something about i13 pvp.
The same can be said of pre-i13 as WAAAAAY more folks did newspapers and radios than arena or pvp zones. This includes our "favorite" server, Freedom.
The idea that there is some hidden MASSIVELY LARGE elventy1111!!! audience in game that is gung ho on open pvp or dueling is a fallacy.
EDIT: TL
R: Whether folks want to face it or admit it or not, this playerbase is mostly CAREBEAR. Nothing at all wrong with that btw. This just wasn't an mmo of players all that big on pvp. Nor was this ever meant as a major pvp game. yeah, yeah, statesman wanted pvp in and "planned" (roftl at planned--more like put together with wax and duck tape) it from the begining. Irrelevant to whether the audience they "planned" it for would play it or even wanted it in large numbers.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Straw man. Nobody's claiming that implementation of any pvp feature is going to suddenly transform the playerbase as a whole into rabid pvpers.| The idea that there is some hidden MASSIVELY LARGE elventy1111!!! audience in game that is gung ho on open pvp or dueling is a fallacy. |
Over and over again you get people chiming in "this is a pve game, the playerbase doesn't want pvp." One problem with that is that it assumes that all non-pvpers are the same, which is not the case. There are many categories of "non-pvper":
1. I don't want pvp in the game under any circumstance.
2. I tried it, but I didn't like it for x,y, and z reasons.
3. I tried it, and it was fun at times but I was harrassed by other players which made it unenjoyable.
4. I did it and enjoyed it, but it was too demanding in terms of paying for a pvp build, having a competitive character, having a team, etc.
5. (most recently) My powers don't function in pvp the way they do in pve and I don't want to relearn the game.
And so on.
Game design can address all of these points except #1.
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Not really it can't. They've had how many tries now? I don't think game design can overcome any of those, as some of them are just fundamentally things you can't control via game design.|
Originally Posted by FrozenDeath
Straw man. Nobody's claiming that implementation of any pvp feature is going to suddenly transform the playerbase as a whole into rabid pvpers.
Over and over again you get people chiming in "this is a pve game, the playerbase doesn't want pvp." One problem with that is that it assumes that all non-pvpers are the same, which is not the case. There are many categories of "non-pvper": 1. I don't want pvp in the game under any circumstance. 2. I tried it, but I didn't like it for x,y, and z reasons. 3. I tried it, and it was fun at times but I was harrassed by other players which made it unenjoyable. 4. I did it and enjoyed it, but it was too demanding in terms of paying for a pvp build, having a competitive character, having a team, etc. 5. (most recently) My powers don't function in pvp the way they do in pve and I don't want to relearn the game. And so on. Game design can address all of these points except #1. |
Harassment by other players for instance is something that ALREADY has options to not happen in the zones. Other side chat is OFF by default. IF you are seeing it it's because YOU turned on the chat.
Repeatedly killing someone in a pvp zone is NOT harassment either. So I'm not sure what harassment you are talking about.
Again THAT can't be controlled by game design mechanics.
Many folks said they didn't like pvp cause of all the bunny hopping. Suppression in i13 supposedly put that down a bit. This didn't cause folks to suddenly love pvp.
Number 4 and 5 isn't going to change since the devs seem hell bent on keeping pvp and pve effects and powers SEPARATE. Also with pvp ios, purples, yeah game design --especially the direction of THIS GAME--I'm not arguing semantics about pvp game design, I'm talking specifically in THIS game, with this DEV team's game history and the proposed and continued direction with pvp; isn't doing jack for that.
They have had many opportunites through game design to get people to pvp they didn't. First it was arenas, then it was lower level pvp zones, then it was RV, then it was various tweaks (getting rid of caging for instance) to make it less annoying for folks. Then finally i13.
Tell me at which time in any of those design decisions that the pvp pop was suddenly rolling and large and you could find folks in the zones consistently in the servers, matching the levels of pl teams in PI?
EDIT: Also every time an open pvp system or dueling system is suggested on these forums it's been shot down with so many holes it's not even funny. The idea that if we just do it right folks will love it is a pipe dream. For it to be a reality you'd have to get a team of devs in who don't aim to go on the current path of i13 pvp. Since the likelihood of that happening is null and void . . . yeah.
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When the arena went live, it took me a couple days to even try it due to the lag from people joining matches. First couple issues after I4 arena activity was steady and you had people going to test for things like cross server battles, regularly scheduled arena nights, and eventually the pvp sg ladder. |
They have had many opportunites through game design to get people to pvp they didn't. First it was arenas, then it was lower level pvp zones, then it was RV, then it was various tweaks (getting rid of caging for instance) to make it less annoying for folks. Then finally i13. Tell me at which time in any of those design decisions that the pvp pop was suddenly rolling and large and you could find folks in the zones consistently in the servers, matching the levels of pl teams in PI? |
When zones were introduced there was pretty steady action up until i13. A regular night in Siren's or RV on Freedom might have had 50-60 people fighting in one zone. Now Freedom is more like Protector in its heyday. Generally, new pvp features resulted in a spike of interest followed by a slow decline resulting from nerfs or slow pace of development.
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| EDIT: Also every time an open pvp system or dueling system is suggested on these forums it's been shot down with so many holes it's not even funny. The idea that if we just do it right folks will love it is a pipe dream. For it to be a reality you'd have to get a team of devs in who don't aim to go on the current path of i13 pvp. Since the likelihood of that happening is null and void . . . yeah. |
It's more constructive to imagine a way that the idea would be good under ideal circumstances, then try to adapt it towards the actual circumstances of this game. Maybe the idea would fail at that point. Maybe it would spur another idea that would work. There's no harm in speculation.
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I still think something can be done about PvP (and´as many know, I no fan). The problem seems to be the fact that this game has been geared toward team play to the point where PvP is pointless without one. If you are going to have PvP in that environment, then it should be team-only. Open PvP zones should be team-only, dueling should have it's own mechanics were powers are geared toward one-on-one and should only happen in designated places. I have yet to see anyone go into a PvP zone with the intent of single-handedly taking on an 8-man (Purple IOed) team.
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You claim he compared the act of making a suggestion to the act of endangering someone's life in a hospital by smoking. This is false, and stems from a conflation of the act of making the suggestion with the act of implementing the suggestion (or more accurately, the consequences of its implementation). The act being compared to smoking in a hospital is the ganking/harrassment of other players, not your support of a /duel function. That support, in turn, is compared to asking for the ashtrays. Enabling suggestion maps to enabling suggestion, consequential act maps to consequential act.
And as previously noted, the analogy is not invalidated by a difference in scale; the fact that ganking lowbies or spamming duel requests isn't nearly as morally reprehensible as smoking in a hospital (and nobody claimed it is, not even implicitly) does nothing to detract from the fact that both are inconsiderate acts which would be enabled by their respective suggestions. Which, of course, is the entire point.
Therefore, the analogy stands, as you have failed to demonstrate a substantial flaw in it.
Additionally:
Atlas 282 (196 of which were lvl 31+)
Other 593 (spread across 36 other zones ) Talos and steel were the next best with 40 and 32 respectively.
Atlas is the only zone that actually feels like an MMO, the rest could easily be mistaken for a decent LAN party
If ~22.4% of the server farming is minuscule I'll be sure to ask for a minuscule raise asap.
*And that is just pretending that the lvl 31+ people in Atlas are the only ones farming in the entire game.