Coh/Cov pvp & "realism".

Then how about if I quote myself from earlier, a response to the same person you're saying has "no redibility or relevance" to the discussion:

PVP is *just not popular in this game.* Not because of its current implementation - it has *never* formed a huge following in this game, even with its constant evolution. The PVP zones have gone from a high of "somewhere on life support" to their usual state of "'e wouldn't 'voom' if you put a million volts into 'im," the most activity tending to be getting a shivan or nuke, farming in RV or, recently, farming for PVP IO recipes. The arenas I've seen "busy" only when there's a PVP event on (like - I think it's Champion that had the level 4 PVP stuff.)

PVP is roughly as popular as a ground glass sandwich with horseradish. And again - that's coming from someone who likes to participate in it on occasion. At least if I go into a zone, I know I'm there with others who are (a) aware of the risks and (b) consented, not someone who just logged in and wants to get a mission done quickly on their lowbie who has trouble with mobs, much less PCs.

See my Guides and Tutorials

They already did. PvP is limited to the Arena and specific zones, which reduces the impact on disinterested parties to potentially zero.

Allowing PvP in PvE zones will never be a "minimal impact" situation.

For example, there is no feasible way to prevent spawn camping in this game short of massive zone design revamps or granting every player free teleportation powers which they can use to travel to different zones immediately. Those aren't the kinds of solutions that the developers are going to implement because they're dramatic changes which do not improve the game for the majority of players.

Another example: PvP players tend to congregate. This can be witnessed in every existing MMORPG with PvP, including this one. They gather in select locations and rarely leave those locations. So permitting worldwide PvP in Co* would do little more than shift the existing gathering points. This would, in turn, lead to extreme lag in the zones where these players are gathered, the same situation which has been a long standing complaint about costume contests, Atlas Park, the markets, etc. So there is no actual benefit to allowing those gathering points to shift, there is no overall improvement for the majority of players and thus it is not something the developers are interested in doing.

Positron has explicitly stated that the development team is focused on providing improvements and content which will benefit the most players and not interested in or intending to bring in new content or features which only a select few will benefit from or experience. World PvP is a feature that only a select few will benefit from, enjoy or experience intentionally. And this will redirect existing resources away from the development of new content and improvements to the existing mechanics and content.

We have the Mission Architect now because the developers didn't spend time, money or manpower working on a feature like world PvP. We have power customization and Going Rogue on the way because the developers did not spend time on a feature like world PvP. We have improvements to the game as a whole, powers being fixed, powersets being rebalanced and new content now and forthcoming because the developers did not spend time on a feature like world PvP.

Most of us are very grateful for that, and if a handful of players aren't... tough cookies. Majority rules in this game, and the majority of players don't want, need or have any use for world PvP. We do want power customization, power proliferation, MA, new S/TFs, new zones, further progression of the underlying stories upon which the game is built, new powersets, improvements to existing powersets and improvements to the existing PvP mechanics and situation.

So save the smack talk about our objections being a result of fear or unfounded opinion. We know what the developers said they want to do with the game, we know what kinds of resources it takes to make the changes which would be required in order to make world PvP "minimally impact" the majority of players, we know that it wouldn't result in actual world PvP (instead being limited to "fight clubs" in PvE zones and random gank squads camping hospitals) and we know that it wouldn't improve or add to the game for the majority of players.

If you want to campaign for something, campaign for PvP missions. That's something that's still technically unfeasible (per Castle, last time i brought up the subject), but would at least offer wider scale PvP without all but guaranteeing delays to content updates and improvements in the entire rest of the game, and which could, if implemented intelligently (read: not this idiotic deathmatch crap we have now), interest more players and result in growth of the PvP segment of the population, up to and including getting "strictly PvE" players involved.

This idea (world PvP) and thread are dead ends, don't waste your time trying to pump life into them.

I much prefer:
"lvl 2 lf lvl 54 boss team"
"can anyone spare some inf"
"fill plz"

filling up the entire chat box in multiple channels.

And then when I check my in-game email
"lewtsRus, buy $1000M inf for 39.99 and get 10% free bonus. Guaranteed deliver in 2 hours"
x 30

Not that I agree with the idea of /duel in this game at this point in time (largely due to the way pvp is working, or rather not working as it were). I just think it is kind of funny that one more layer of spam is what everyone thinks would break the camel's back.

It's not. One more layer of "playing a way that only a miniscule portion of the player base wants to" is the issue. The rest is "griefing". Not spam.

And maybe if you leave Atlas every once in a while, you won't GET "lfae" broadcasts...

There is a BIG difference between spam and smacktalk--intent. As annoying as either activity is, I'd much rather have people trying to sell me things/asking me for favors than people trying to PISS ME OFF ENOUGH TO FIGHT THEM. Are you really telling me you think it's the same thing?

I would. I used to think mayhem/safeguard missions were the perfect venue for some of this action. When AE was announced I thought it would be ideal for mixed pve/pvp creative encounters.

i don't think that anymore, but it isn't because of AE or mayhem's, they could have been awesome for people like me. It is because pvp in this game is shot. Any kind of pvp mixed with pve now is auto fail and would severely damage things.

IMO unless they are going to hire an actual pvp dev(s) I'd prefer they dragged pvp out back and shot it because it is sickening seeing it hobble around on mangled and infected limbs.

oh I can play this game. When I leave atlas the lfae broadcasts cease, in fact the only map chat is when I go by npc's and they say their lines cause all the other zones are ghost towns.

Prior to AE only a minuscule portion of the population farmed. They adapted pretty quickly.

When I leave Atlas for more than a few minutes with the intention of teaming I get sad and log off. Maybe playing on the server with the highest population has somehow skewed my perception, but less than 5 people in a zone != MMO.

And even though you are already saddled up on your high horse, I'll just point out I don't want open pvp in this game. I used to. I used to want a lot of things for this game, but I'm content with everyone sitting in one zone confined to a 100x100ft room. It's fun. I know that sounds sarcastic and it should to actual pve'ers, but for me AE is the best thing that has happened to the pve game...possibly ever.

This is all well and good, but doesn't change that open would pvp prior to i13 or post i13 would be a horrible idea.

You should know better. They're out there, in missions.

Who's "they" exactly? Only a miniscule portion of the population STILL farms. You're talking about the new people who've never really been out of AE, not the folks I know - one group is currently running a marathon of the Shadow Shard tf's. So... that's a group of people who won't be shown in your /search right there.

"ur doin it rong." There are several great guides on how to get yourself on teams in this "terrible wasteland of post-AE depression".

if I am, you gave me a boost up. thanks.

I'm guessing that's supposed to BE sarcasm because it doesn't really make any sense anyway.

Wow. So posting in support of a pve zone /duel option makes me a bullying and belittling pvp smacktard who wants to hold sway over other players. You're describing the pvp population as the "griefer population." I get it. You don't like pvp. And apparently this extends to flaming people who advocate any kind of pvp. That qualifies as loathing to me. YMMV obviously.

So ridiculous, lol. There is more farming now than probably any other stage of the game. Not only does AE make it much easier for novice people to run a farm themselves, all the phat loot is outrageously expensive and requires that you farm tickets, inf, etc. in order to make any headway.

/em Darryl Hall "Out of touch, out of time, out of touch, out of time girl!"

Of course its a dead end. They'd never put anything like this in cox. But let's look at it as something like--building an anti-gravity skateboard. It's a ridiculous thing that will never happen for a variety of reasons, but discussing and fleshing out the proposals might lead to other ideas that would be interesting and/or useful.

No, describing anyone in opposition to said idea as fearful or hateful is what makes you bullying and belittling. You refuse to believe that there could be something wrong with the idea--instead, there must be something wrong with the people who disagree with it. Which is odd, since they comprise the majority of the playerbase. So in essence, you're describing most people who play this game as scared or hateful. I stand by my statement. If you think that you can change people's minds by grouping them together and calling them names, you're a bully, and you're attempting to belittle people into seeing your point of view.

Obviously you don't get it. PvP'ers are by and large, decent people. They stick to themselves and don't enjoy abusing other players. There is a smaller subset of PvP'ers who enjoy griefing and making life difficult for other players. Making a worldwide PvP system would affect them the most and empower them the most.

You're overgeneralizing to make your point by assuming I hate all kinds of PvP--not the case. I enjoy occasionally going to PvP zones for PvP when I'm in the mood, and I'm glad it's there when I want it. It's like visiting someone in the hospital, and going to the smoking section to light up--there's nothing wrong with that. What you're advocating, on the other hand, is installing ashtrays next to the hospital beds so you can smoke anywhere you want. That makes you a jerk. It doesn't make all smokers jerks, just people like you. You are so inconsiderate that you can't realize that the slight increase in enjoyability this "feature" would create for you is outweighed by the massive annoyance it would cause for most of the other players of this game. But that doesn't matter to you, because they are obviously all haters and cowards...

It's nothing like an anti-grav skateboard. That idea would actually have a following--lots of people would want to use it, and it would be revolutionary. Worldwide PvP, on the other hand, has been tried on other games and found to be a disappointment. It's less like a floating skateboard and more like an 8-track tape player--old, worn out, and totally useless given improvements in design.

The real "Anti-Gravity Skateboard" is designated PvP zones. It's new and rare for MMOs, and the idea has a strong following here.

I didn't group anyone together and call them names. I made some generalizations about the negative responses I was seeing in this discussion. Now you're following some tortured logic to make it out that I'm insulting the player base at large. You can quibble over the connotations of my earlier choice of words all you want.

On the other hand, so far you've labelled me a bully, pvp smacktard, and now a jerk. The comments are in no way comparable. Now there may very well be SOMETHING wrong with the idea of worldwide pvp in this game (I specifically mentioned a duel function). There is NOTHING wrong with trying to flesh something out here on the forums. But your personal attacks and general hostility shouldn't be a part of it.

Because suggesting a /duel function on the suggestion boards of a MMO is equivalent to walking into a hospital and lighting up next to a patient's bed. Wow.

Ok, please don't be so tedious as to nitpick the choice of metaphor I'm using to make a point.

There's no distinction. That's like saying, "I didn't hit the guy, I just pushed my fist toward his face until it made contact." You assumed everyone who didn't agree with your position was a hater or a coward. Face up to it and don't hide it behind clinical language. You aren't fooling anyone.

Considering the widespread lack of support for your "idea", I'd say you're doing more than insulting the playerbase at large. You're advocating that they be forced to deal with a PvP system that many of them would rather quit the game than accept. That's not just insulting, that shows complete disregard for them altogether. You'd rather assume they're deficient in some way than simply accept majority opinion. In your mind, the only reason the majority of people dislike this PvP suggestion is because there is something wrong with the majority. And you expect us to take you seriously.

Your blatent disregard for the wishes of other players in favor of your own narrow viewpoint, and your "generalizations" have earned you those labels. If the shoe fits, wear it. You have no interest in what other players think. You only care about your "impromptu PvE duels". I have little patience for people who would continue to ask for a feature after others expressed discontent so vast that they would leave the game over it. Could you really enjoy a feature (especially a small one) if it came at the cost of a large chunk of the playerbase? Would you really just laugh it off and say "Well, people leave games all the time." ? I can't think of any way to describe someone who holds viewpoints like that other than "a bully, PvP smacktard, or a jerk". Maybe I'm being to hard on you, but if you had your way, you'd be happy, but there would be a lot of upset people.

You aren't trying to "flesh anything out". You want your PvP, and you want everyone else to jump through hoops so you can get it. PvP in CoH has already been "fleshed out". It's made to accomodate the majority of the playerbase in an acceptable way already. Taking PvP out of the PvP zones in any way will only lower the overall quality of life for a large segment of the game population (the non PvP'ers). It's even debatable that it would lower the overall quality of life for PvP'ers as well, since they'll be spread out even further than they are now.

Again, you choose to belittle your detractors rather than address the issues raised. If you had a shred of empathy in you, you'd recognize that many people came to this game to get away from the very system you're advocating. Smoking in a hospital is rude and potentially hazardous to the patient's health, but it wouldn't kill everyone right away. Adding worldwide PvP on the other hand, would cause the game to wither and die in short order.

You poke fun at my metaphors without addressing them. I on the other hand, addressed yours. Worldwide PvP is a worn out idea. Designated PvP zones is the new and improved PvP system. Accept it, or go elsewhere. To use your "floating skateboard" metaphor, We're enjoying our skateboards, but if you would rather walk, you're welcome to do so. Just don't pretend walking is the way of the future.

Analogies are not invalidated by differences in scale.

It's been a while since I took logic in college but an analogy is a comparison to help visualize or understand a concept. They can be good or bad, but they can't be valid in a formal argumentative sense. Generally speaking arguing by analogy is a bad idea.

His analogy that I quoted is clearly bad. He compares me coming to the suggestion forums and advocating an idea, which is the purpose of this forum, with someone endangering a patient's life in a hospital. It's ludicrous on the face of it.

Solicio--

I've already discussed how an idea like this would have to be done in a way that minimized the impact on other players. Maybe you need to review what I've actually written. Your "labels" (i.e. personal attacks) aren't something I've earned. They aren't something that should be part of the discussion. Read the forum guidelines on flaming.

"Discontent so vast". In other words loathing. Apparently I'm a bully for wording the same thought a different way.

No. It would have to be done in a way that wouldn't lose that chunk.

Many of the statements in this thread boil down to "if you don't like it, leave. Tough cookies." Above you write "accept it or go elsewhere." Clearly you are comfortable directing these sentiments to people you think don't matter. If you think somebody is trying to express something like that towards you, suddenly you're being bullied.

No. The main reason pvp fails to gain traction with the hardcore pve crowd is that cox pvp is essentially "player killing player." Gladiator matches and base raids are the exceptions to this and base raiding withered from bugs, much like the arena did for a long time. The pvp community has asked for goal driven pvp content for years, things like capture the flag where victory would not hinge on farming weaker players. Other complaints were lack of a reward system and the concern over wrecking a pve build in order to pvp. The devs are slowly making progress in some fronts, but they have also been doing a lot of damage as well. You're reading far too much into my comments in an overly personal way.

It already is. The way that the game is right now, is the ideal for the playerbase which exists. To disturb that would be disasterous. What you have suggested is exactly that: a disasterous disturbance in the game.

The number of players who actively pvp in this game IS miniscule compared to those who do not, or who only occasionally jump in. If this were not plain and simple truth, the PVP zones should be more or less hoppin, right? They aren't. THEY are the wasteland zones that people doooom about - there's hardly ever anyone in ANY pvp zones, and unless something is organized well in advance, Arena matches are pretty much never done at random.

The idea is not to force anyone to do anything here. The OPTIONS to do so are there, meeting that ideal. Any other method is entirely counter to the whole concept.

"Make PVP more appealing by x, y and z" might be a far better solution to draw people who do not regularly pvp, into the areas designated for it. That has already happened - and the hard-core pvp crowd flipped their collective wig over it. So... why bother trying to bring more people who would require way more 'attention to detail' when those same people are more than content to use the zones as-is, pve dominating pvp, instead of alienating anyone?

Maybe, I dunno, I usually lead teams and I've found the new standard size is 5-6 members cause I won't make everyone wait for an extra 5-10 min while those last spots fill up. Can usually make an 8 man team in atlas in about 15 seconds though.
I'm not sure of your definition of miniscule, but I consider it less than 2%. If I do a server search and upwards of 70% of the people are in Atlas. Well maybe that isn't a typical result, but it is what I saw the other night.

I'm glad you know of a single group running shard TF's, clearly that makes it all better.

This just gets better and better. I am the only one that thinks that if there is a demand/need for guides for how to find a non-ae team that something might be a little off?

What part of Massively Multiplayer should I redefine so that it makes sense that finding a team should be anything other than the norm and very easy?

No I'm serious, I think it is great that I no longer have to put in any real effort to level toons and slot them out in a very short period of time. One of the main pve aspects I like in this game is trying out as many variable builds as possible. But I fail to see how pretty much any self proclaimed pve'er could be happy with MA. It is immersion breaking, sucks the life out of the "world", and has resulted in a pretty big shift in the community.

So... what you're saying is "there is not a teaming problem". No one "needs" an 8 man team, unless you're trying to start a particular tf/sf. Anything from a duo on up is "a good team" if everyone plays and has fun.


Since there were plenty of guides about how to get teams and lead them *before AE came along* I would say yes, you're the only one. Plenty of people complained that they couldn't find anyone therefore the servers are dying therefore they need a server merge .... blah blah blah. That's all long before AE. And those of us who aren't afraid to figure out how to "do it right" also figure that it's good to pass that knowledge along to those who appear to need it.

This game is incredibly solo friendly. What part of the statement you said at the top of this post, about finding an 8 person team in 15 minutes in Atlas, is difficult? You are contradicting yourself.

So really, I'm not sure WHAT you're trying to get at. And, also... what does this have to do with the subject of the thread?

The hardcore arena crowd provided extensive input, testing, and feedback to the devs on how to improve pvp. With i13, Castle basically flipped off that entire segment of the population and incorporated changes that were the exact opposite of what the pvp vets said were the best thing about cox pvp. The result was a further decline in the population.

Your basic line of thought is: hardly anyone pvps. Therefore hardly anyone wants to pvp. Therefore everything is fine as is and the devs shouldn't make additional changes to try to lure people into pvp. You look at the end of a long evolution and draw erroneous conclusions based on your own disinterest.

Pvp has always been plagued by developer neglect. When the arena was hopping, it broke and they neglected to fix it. Naturally people stopped doing it. Base raids happened regularly. Then it broke. So people stopped doing it. Zones were dominated by highly skilled teams of hardcore players, so casual players stayed out. So they nerfed buffing and movement powers. Many of the skilled players left and the pve-minded still stay out. If the devs handled the pve game the same way they've handle pvp, the entire MMO would've failed long ago.

Why bother to work on pvp? To make it a better game as a whole. To make it appeal to a wider variety of people. What's hard to grasp about that?

Right: the hardcore people. Had lots more non-hardcore people come in and said "hey that's a really good idea! I won't have to figure this out the hard way any more!" it may have been different. As it was, perhaps the content of the suggestions were more akin to "we want to keep winning and keep others from enjoying themselves" and less "let's get lots more people enjoying this event".

At what point is "hardly anyone pvps and wants to" erroneous? I'm taking from *actual example populations* - those who've been here and said so, as well as those who have stated very plainly if it were not here they wouldn't care. You're trying to say I'm making a false course of logic here but frankly your opinion on the matter doesn't make it true: hardly anyone does/wants/requires pvp in this game. Maybe those same people REALLY enjoy playing Team Fortress for their pvp jollies, maybe they - like me and half the other folks here in this very thread - just *don't like pvp*.

In a game which wasn't started with PVP in mind, that's hardly a newsworthy item.

This I agree with. They really did drop the ball on the only kind of PVP that I got into and enjoyed almost every time I participated in. It's frequently been said that the Arena is the best way to keep pvp in the game, and I agree. It has its place. They HAVE spiffed up the arena, though yes - too little too late perhaps.

I'll have to take your word for this, as I participated in a total of two raids, one of which was only for jokes and giggles.

.... These two things are the same. If it's broken, you can't use the feature.

Exactly. Why. I. Don't. Zone. PVP.

They "changed".

Right. Because the few hardcore folks who have stayed are still doing the same crap that they did to prevent other people from enjoying it now, only with slightly different tactics. I see nothing wrong with this picture.

There have been FAR more nerfs and changes in the PVE game than the PVP one. Don't exaggerate please, the game *is about PVE* for the most part, and obviously that's where the devs enjoy putting effort. Yes. They hate pvp. lol.

Better is a highly subjective term here. Better for SOME small number of people, but honestly there are so many more who just wouldn't even NOTICE if PVP completely vanished from this game entirely. You know this to be true.

Let's talk about quality versus quantity, then.

In order to appeal to a pvp-oriented PLAYER, a game really does need to be built from the ground up with PVP in mind. This is not one of those games. It's always been rather a joke in this game, that pvp isn't all that great. I've seen scathing reviews of it, and even the hardcore players who HAVE conquored the methods here, laugh at it at times. If it's such a joke, why defend it so hard when there are other, way more appropriate places to play pvp style? Other games - like Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress and Counterstrike - are ALL about pvp, and leave nothing much to the imagination there. But they have different styles of play too, admittedly in a much more restricted whole game environment.

But they were *designed for player versus player interaction*.

This game *was not*.

I agree that it should be "done right" if at all - but frankly, done at all is really the question. The arena is fun, the zones are... less fun but still functional and could very well be repurposed for coop instead of pvp.

None of the things involving improving pvp, however, would EVER include "letting pvp enter pve zones". (oh ho, SUBJECT LINE HERE, thought you caught me...)

Anyway - enjoy what you get. Because obviously, the devs DO hate you. And villains. And furries. So clearly you should adopt a furry, pvp villain as the mascot of "improve or die" ... >_> /sarcasm

It's ok if you are being purposefully obtuse as long as you are aware of it. If you can't understand that I already said Atlas is the only place that it is easy to find a full team and everything else is a ghost town then I'm not sure why you even bothered to respond as you clearly didn't read what you replied to. But lets be honest there has already been copious amounts of that occurring in this very thread, so par for the course.

It has nothing to do with the subject of the thread other than that you clearly don't like pvp and your bias has spilled all over any points you are trying to make.

My personal hope is that CO turns out at least somewhat decent as it sounds like they are in agreement with the OP and are going to give pvp a fair shake. Until that time I'll just level up a few more 50's in a week or so while playing City of Farmers.

Freedom @ 5:30 pm PST
Atlas 282 (196 of which were lvl 31+)
Other 593 (spread across 36 other zones ) Talos and steel were the next best with 40 and 32 respectively.

Atlas is the only zone that actually feels like an MMO, the rest could easily be mistaken for a decent LAN party

If ~22.4% of the server farming is minuscule I'll be sure to ask for a minuscule raise asap.
*And that is just pretending that the lvl 31+ people in Atlas are the only ones farming in the entire game.