Groups, Groups and Groups
I14 Mission Architect (MA) only makes a distinction between Standard Villain Groups/mobs and Custom Villain Groups/mobs.
For some purposes (spawning rules) it's probably better to think of them as three types of groups:
* Standard Villain Groups
* 'Pure' Custom Villain Groups
* 'Hybrid' Custom Villain Groups
If the text in this guide refers to 'Custom Villain Groups' or 'Custom Groups' it means it applies to both 'Pure' and 'Hybrid' groups.
Standard Villain Groups
These are the dev-designed groups of mobs we know and love/hate!
There is nothing we can do to edit these and most tend to come in subranges of the full level range (1-54 for mobs).
E.g. The Nemesis Standard Villain Group has a level range of 30-54. You should never find a Nemesis mob that is below level 30 ingame.
Being a standard part of the game:
* the size impact of including standard groups is minimal (descriptive/costume data is already stored as part of your CoX installation);
* We'd expect fewer big bugs/errors with using them (compared to custom mobs), as the standard game will hopefully have caught many possible bugs.
'Pure' Custom Villain Groups
These are the player designed groups which contain nothing but player-designed custom mobs.
I won't try to create a full tutorial to creating custom mobs and groups, as I'm sure that far more competent authors are already working on them!
But do note that:
* You can set the effective rank of custom mobs as one of:
Minion/Lieutenant/Boss/Elite Boss/Archvillain - the combative mob types from weakest to strongest;
Person - this custom mob type has no powers, but can be used as contact/hostage/escort.
* Each custom mob has an effective available range of 1-54, so Pure custom groups also have full coverage across the lvl range of 1-54.
'Hybrid' Custom Villain Groups
These are the player designed groups which contain a mix of player-designed custom mobs and dev-designed standard mobs.
These can be odd as the custom mobs always have a lvl range of 1-54, but the standard mobs have their standard level ranges - this can mean that you can have partial-holes in your level range coverage.
What do I mean by a partial hole?
I mean a hole where there are no standard mobs, particularly in the middle of coverage at higher and lower levels.
Example:
I could create the following 'holey hybrid group' to contain the following mobs:
* 5th Column - Nebel Elite Rifle - minion - lvl 5 - 19
* Carnie - Attendant - minion - lvl 30 - 40
* CUSTOM - Hexenhammer - Archvillain - lvl 1- 54
The level range for this group would be 1 - 54, and there is not a single level without some form of mob, so it is valid.
In hybrid groups it's usual that there will be some gaps in the standard mobs at the higher or lower end of the 1-54 range, and these can be carefully worked around.
But partial holes in the middle, as we have here from 20-29 can be harder to spot and may cause odd effects, especially if there are no custom mobs of any given rank (e.g. minions/lts/bosses).
Consider: What would be the effect if a lvl 25 character tries a mission where this is the only villain group used?
I come back to this later...
But JD - you forgot my Pick'n'Mix!
No I didn't really.
You can create custom groups that don't contain custom mobs, but depending upon the circumstances they act much-like either Standard Villain Groups or, occasionally, like Hybrid Custom Groups.
I call them Pick'n'Mix Groups as you can pick standard mobs from a mix of standard groups, much like the sweets/candy sellers who let you pick various types of sweet and just pay a flat rate for the 'bag'.
I don't really consider them as a major 4th set, because:
* It's probably unnecessary given how they behave;
* I'd guess that exceptions with these will be pretty rare - especially as most players seem to want Pure or Hybrid Groups if they are Customising villains;
* I'd only confuse myself and you, the reader! 
Having said that, please note that a custom group that only contains standard mob types can only be saved if there is at least one mob available for every level between the minimum level and maximum level in the villain group.
Say what?
Between the lowest level (that any standard mob used in your group is available at) and the highest level (the maximum level of any mob in your group) you cannot have a single level that has no mobs available.
You don't need the mob level ranges to overlap, just leave no gaps.
Maybe a couple of examples will help:
Example 1:
I create 'custom group 1' to contain the following standard mobs:
* 5th Column - Nebel Elite Rifle - minion - lvl 5 - 19
* Goldbrickers - Rocketman - minion - lvl 15 - 20
* Wyvern - Wind Talon Agent - minion - lvl 15 - 30
This will save fine as there is no level between 5 and 30 (the minimum and maximum levels) where there is no available mob. Every level in that range has at least 1 mob available.
In fact you probably noticed that 15-19 has 3 mobs available and 20 has 2 mobs available. Having extra is fine, it's just gaps that aren't allowed.
The level range for this Pick'n'Mix Custom Group will be 5-30.
Example 2:
I create 'custom group 2' to contain the following standard mobs:
* 5th Column - Nebel Elite Rifle - minion - lvl 5 - 19
* Arachnos - Arachnobot - minion - lvl 20 - 30
This will save fine as there is no level between 5 and 30 (the minimum and maximum levels) where there is no available mob. Every level in that range has 1 mob available, even though the individual mob ranges do not overlap.
Again, the level range for this Pick'n'Mix Custom Group will be 5-30.
Example 3:
I try creating 'custom group 3' to contain the following standard mobs:
* 5th Column - Nebel Elite Rifle - minion - lvl 5 - 19
* Carnie - Attendant - minion - lvl 30 - 40
This will not save as is.
The attempted level range for the group is currently 5 - 40, but there are no mobs available in the 20 - 29 range. This 10 level hole stops the group from being valid.
Luckily the group editor has a little bar at the bottom that shows you what range your mobs cover. The bar shows covered levels in green and uncovered levels in orange. It's quite easy to spot if you have an orange uncovered patch in the middle of the green covered range.
Why is level range important?
Each group covers a range of levels, and all the groups in any single mission have to have some common level range that they cover.
This applies whether the groups are custom or standard.
The area of common coverage (or intersection of all the groups ranges, if you prefer) is the level range assigned to the mission. This is then used to auto-SK or auto-exemp any player characters playing the arc.
If there is no level range that is common to all groups used in the mission, then the mission will raise an error and it cannot be tested or published.
Example 1:
I create a mission with my 'custom group 1' (from above) in and the standard group 'Infected'. The group ranges are:
* 'custom group 1' - lvl 5 - 30
* Infected - lvl 1 - 10
The 2 groups overlap at levels 5 to 10.
These 2 groups are valid in the same mission and the mission range will be 5 - 10. With characters below level 5 being auto-SK'd and characters over 10 being auto-exemp'd.
Example 2:
I now try to add in the 'Tsoo'. The group ranges are now:
* 'custom group 1' - lvl 5 - 30
* Infected - lvl 1 - 10
* Tsoo - lvl 15 - 20
Because there is no overlap between Tsoo and Infected this would be invalid. The mission would not be playable to test or to publish.
Where are these Groups?
I'll try not to revisit old ground too much here, as my thread about Size Matters covers this is some detail in part 2.
Standard Villain Groups are stored as part of your standard CoH installation. They'll be somewhere in the .pigg files, but trying to look into these binary files is against the EULA. Besides, we don't need to know where the standard groups/mobs are as we can't edit them.
Mission/Storyarc files and custom group/mob files are a different matter. They are in a human-readable plain text format on your hard drive, and no reverse-engineering, decompiling or other EULA-breaking is needed to find them.
And you'll want to know where they are to backup, move between computers/installations and for some problems you may want to delete them for a fresh start!
The actual files are stored here:
/Missions - contains .storyarc files which are complete storyarcs
/CustomVillainGroup - contains .cvg files - each an individual custom group
/Custom_Critter - contains .critter files - each an individual custom mob
Note that mission files contain a copy of groups used in the mission, and group files contain a copy of any custom mobs used in them.
Some people have reported issues with editing custom mobs and the edits appearing in the missions. At least some of these appear to be because of the multiple copies structure of the files. You may edit the custom mob, but the version in the groups and mission can remain as the copy taken before the edit...
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Challenge Levels
Challenge level is the name that appears to be used in I14 MA for the old reputation/notoriety - i.e. your game difficulty setting.
I've not seen anything saying why the devs have used a new name, although it seems obvious that a faction-neutral name for 'difficulty setting' is better than having 2 names 'reputation' (for heroes) and 'notoriety' (for villains).
I'd guess that plain old 'difficulty' was out as whether any specific challenge level is easy/about right/difficult/hard varies greatly from character to character, team to team and mission to mission. E.g. One character may hate to solo CoT on the hardest level, but on the same settings eats Freaks for breakfast!
The challenge levels alter difficulty by changing the mob levels and altering the spawn sizes - they also control whether AVs (and some other ranks on the easiest level) get downgraded to a lower rank.
Roughly speaking, the levels up until now have been:
Challenge Level 1 (aka Heroic/Villainous)
- mobs usually spawn at +0/1 to your level (so a lvl 12 sees 12s and 13s).
- size of spawns is at a baseline level for the team size.
- If solo, Bosses will be Lieutenants.
- AVs are downgraded to EBs if the team has fewer than 6 players.
Challenge Level 2 (aka Tenacious/Malicious)
- mobs spawn at +0/1 (a lvl 12 sees 12s and 13s).
- size of spawns is increased (as if there was an extra person in the team).
- AVs are downgraded to EBs if the team has fewer than 5 players.
Challenge Level 3 (aka Rugged/Vicious)
- mobs spawn at +1/2 (a lvl 12 sees 13s and 14s).
- size of spawns is as per challenge level 1.
- AVs are downgraded to EBs if the team has fewer than 4 players.
Challenge Level 4 (aka Rugged/Ruthless)
- mobs spawn at +1/2 (a lvl 12 sees 13s and 14s).
- size of spawns is increased, as per challenge level 2.
- AVs are downgraded to EBs if the team has fewer than 3 players.
Challenge Level 5 (aka Invincible/Relentless)
- mobs spawn at +3/4 (a lvl 12 sees 14s and 15s).
- size of spawns is as per challenge level 1.
- AVs are never downgraded, even if solo.
Note that larger spawn sizes tend to have more liuetenants and bosses.
As I said before the list of challenge levels, that was 'the levels up until now'.
Mission Architect has slightly altered rules for solo players. This is because the difficulty/toughness of custom mobs can be much greater than that of standard mobs, so it was deemed too easy to create arcs in MA that would annihilate most players even at heroic. Since being annihilated at even the easiest setting can destroy the sense of fun the decision was made to do additional mission scaling!
As far as I know, these altered scaling rules only apply in MA missions and may only apply to custom groups.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Using Groups in Missions - Single Mobs and Pools
Any group (standard or custom) can be used in a variety of ways but these can be split into 2 main categories of usage:
A - Use the group to pick a single mob from to use as a Boss, Hostage, Escort or Ally;
B - Use the group as a pool and let the server pick a selection of mobs.
Picking a single mob for use as a boss/hostage/escort/ally lets you look at a list of mobs in the group and pick 1. You can rename and set a few other details, but essentially the mission will just pull out that single mob to use as instructed.
E.g. for standard group 'Crey' you might pick 'Crey Power Tank' in which case you get a 'Crey Power Tank' and not a 'Crey Quantum Tank' or any other valid Crey mob.
E.g. for a custom group 'JDs toons' I might pick 'Judgement Dave' and I'd get 'Judgement Dave' and not 'Exengel', the villainous 'Bulk Logan' or any other mob I've put in this custom group.
For range checking purposes, picking a single mob from a group treats the mob as a group of it's own with the range of the individual mob picked.
E.g. In a map with 5th Column (1-54) as the mission group (the pool group) but selecting a single mob to use as a captive to rescue restricts the mission level range to that of the captive mob. So using a Nacht Elite Fire (minion 20-24) as captive will limit the whole mission to the 20-24 range.
This may seem silly for captives, after all the captive won't be fighting (captives are passive NPCs, not like escorts/allies/bosses) but it can actually very useful for locking down a mission to a desired level range.
When a custom mob is selected for single mob use, the rest of the custom group (that the custom mob belongs to) is not added to the storyarc if it isn't there already.
Picking the group to use as a pool is done for tasks where you want a mix of enemies/allies. For things like the general mob spawns in a mission, hostage guards, ambushes etc. These are cases where you want a few of the group to spawn, but don't get the ability to pick which ones individually.
E.g. Picking the standard group 'Crey' for an ambush the server will pick appropriate mobs - you might get an ambush including a 'research scientist', or a 'riot guard' or any other valid Crey mob. You have no direct control over what you get.
When a custom group is selected for pool use, all of the custom group is added to the storyarc if it isn't there already.
How the Server Spawns Mobs from Pools
Disclaimer: This is all loose theory based upon investigation on my part (i.e. guesswork) - funnily enough I haven't been involved in writing/maintaining/reverse-engineering the server code for CoX.
The results of tests were, at times, odd enough or varied enough that I believe it is worth making my test data public so that:
- Any readers can see why I made the conclusions (including 'wth?') from the data available to me;
- Some smarter reader may spot a pattern I missed.
I admit that I may easily have missed something - 3 days of designing test mobs/groups/missions and hour after hour of gathering data can make it far easier to start missing the wood and the trees as test results swirl before my eyes and I dream of endless Judgement Dave mobs!
Standard Groups
The actual mobs chosen in a mission are affected by level, team size and reputation - and whether your kheldian flag is set!
So much like the normal game, you wouldn't expect a paper mission using Crey to be full of Crey EBs/AVs - the server picks minions/lts/bosses for most spawns, with the actual rank, level and quantity spread being determined pseudo-randomly based upon teamsize/level/rep.
E.g. If I pick Crey as the mission mob type: I may get riot guards, power tanks, research scientists, infiltrators etc I don't know in advance exactly what types of mobs I'll see at any one spawn - but I do know that the server will try to provide suitable enemies for my team size/rep/level.
So if I solo the map on heroic the server will:
- look at the group (Creys) for minions and lieutenants of an appropriate level to use, as minions and lieutenants are the usually spawn types for solo/heroic. The appropriate level bit means that high level characters can see different mob types to low level characters, if the villain group has enough diversity of mobs at different levels.
- Most, probably all, standard groups have a reasonable mix of minions/lts/bosses at all level ranges where the group exists (e.g. 30-54 for Crey in MA).
- Finding suitable minions/lts, the server spawns them in a pseudo-random mix determined by teamsize/rep/level - so for solo heroic it's something like: (3 minions or 1 minion and a lieut) at player level +0/+1
Of course if a standard group is in a mission then auto-SK'ing/exemp'ing will occur if the player character's level is outside the intersection of ranges for groups in the mission. As well as ensuring a reasonable level of challenge for the player, this helps to make sure that sensible results are provided for spawned mobs.
Pure Custom Groups
If I pick a custom group the server will again try to pick a reasonable and appropriate mix of mobs to spawn....
but what if it can't do this because of the limited mobs in the custom group I've designed??
Tough! The server will do it's best using the mobs that you have provided, which means that you may end up with odd looking spawns. If you don't have any minions/lts/bosses then EBs/AVs will be used to fill the gaps. Due to level scaling code currently used in MA, they may be downgraded to lieutenants, but they may not be.
E.g. If I pick the 'JDs toons' custom group to populate a map, and that group contains only AV level mobs (of 'Judgement Dave', 'Exengel' and 'Bulk Logan') then soloing the mission on heroic the server would look to spawn normal groups of mobs and would:
- look at the group for minions and lieutenants to use, as minions and lieutenants are the usually spawn types for solo/heroic (and being custom mobs they have an effective level range from 1-50+)
- Finding no minions/lts the server is forced to use the other available mobs; I'd guess that it would try, in order, bosses then EBS then AVs - but I admit that I haven't tested this.
- Since my example custom group contains only AVs, it uses them, but being on solo/heroic it will only create spawns of 1 mob
- The levels of these single-mob spawns will range slightly (spread over 2 levels, as per usual) and they appear to be lieutenants at solo heroic, with the first of each mob encountered being an EB. The lieuts are probably due to the MA-specific scaling that can reduce AVs below EB level, thoughthis may not entirely be WAI.
So in a single mission I could end up facing spawns that contain individual mobs similar to the following:
* EB 'Judgement Dave'
* EB 'Bulk Logan'
* EB 'Exengel'
* several Lt 'Judgement Dave's
* several Lt 'Bulk Logan's
* several Lt 'Exengel's
Note that because the custom group is used as the villain group for pool-type use, the server doesn't know that 'Judgement Dave' is meant to be some sort of unique entity. It cares not for fancy names - 'Judgement Dave' becomes as unique as 'Lead Shocker' or 'Bone Daddy' - just another mob.
Hybrid Custom Groups
Beware that mixing custom mobs and standard mobs can have some unusual side effects due to all custom mobs having a range of 1-54 but most standard groups only existing in a lesser subrange.
Any custom villain group that includes custom mobs will have an available group level range of 1-54.
But when picking which mobs to use for spawns the server appears to look for level before mob-type, and so if the server decides that it prefers to have a lvl 25 minion it will use an inappropriate rank (rescaled) from the appropriate range rather than change to using another of the correct rank of an inappropriate level range.
E.g. My 'glag slolem 1' custom group has a custom AV mob, 'Cruddy' (lvl 1-54), and all the individual (non - random) standard mobs from the slag golems group (lvl 20-30). Any missions using this as the default mob group will be available at levels 1-54.
If my lvl1 character does this mission, because the group is flagged as 1-54 he is not SK'ed. Solo on heroic, because minions/lts cannot be found at lvl 1-2, spawns will contain lvl 1-2 AVs rescaled to EBs/Lts.
This behaviour changes if the 'random' mobs from standard groups are included in the hybrid group. This is as the 'random' mobs are marked as being level 1-54 even if the actual mobs they will pick occupy a lesser subrange.
E.g. My 'glag slolem 2' custom group has a custom AV mob, 'Cruddy' (lvl 1-54), and all the standard mobs (both the specific mobs and the 'random' mobs) from the slag golems group (lvl 20-30). Any missions using this as the default mob group will be available at levels 1-54.
If my lvl50 blaster Judgement Dave does this mission, because the group is flagged as 1-54 he is not exemped. But, solo on heroic, most spawns will contain lvl30 slag golem minions and lieuts.
It appears that in this example, the server does the following:
- looks at the group for lvl 50/51 minions and lieutenants to use, as minions and lieutenants are the usually spawn types for solo/heroic and JD is lvl 50 on challenge level 1.
- Success! Of a sort... the server finds the 'random' slag golem minions and lts marked as 1-54, so covering the range we want.
- It then goes to actually place the slag golems, converts the 'random' mob to an actual mob, and finds that lvl 50/51 is out of their range so uses the highest reach of their range and places them as level 30s.
I guess that it's something like this - the effects I've witnessed seem to suggest that a process similar to this takes place, although the exact order/routine may be different (e.g. the adjustment from lvl 50 to lvl 30 may happen earlier).
The problem seem to be avoided if 'Random' mobs are avoided in hybrid groups.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Example problems, Tips, Tricks and Oddities
Note that some of these may refer to bugs or things that are still being tweaked - as such it's subject to change.
If you use Only Standard Groups...
Remember that when designing your mission that all groups used in the mission must have at least one level in common. You can't use groups that do not overlap for at least one level, and if you try the MA editor should raise an error and the mission should be untestable/unpublishable.
This also applies to mobs used as bosses/hostages/escorts/allies.
In the main, you should see few errors and scaling oddities with standard groups - the servers have been tested using standard mobs for years now!
Given that Standard groups are also the most space efficient in your arc, it can reduce headaches if you use standard groups when there isn't a good reason not to.
If you use Custom Groups...
If your custom group is going to be used for picking normal pool spawns, try to make sure that you include at least 1 minion, at least 1 lieut and at least 1 boss.
Try to avoid odd gaps such as having just minions and EB/AVs.
If you use Hybrid Custom Groups...
* Avoid picking the 'random' mobs from standard groups - these seem to set the range that a random minion/lt/boss (as applicable) can be chosen at to 1-54 even though the actual available mobs may only populate a much smaller subrange. This results in a risk of selected mobs conning purple or grey at ridiculous lvl differences, e.g. a lvl 40 mob for a lvl30 characters, or lvl 30 mobs for a lvl 50 character.
This can also affect Pick'n'Mix groups that contain 'random' mobs.
* Try to avoid gaps in the ranges of available standard mobs - it can create odd spawns of grey or purple conning mobs. See Appendix 2 (post 8) for examples!
Don't overdo custom groups!
Standard groups are more reliable and more space efficient.
Leaving the custom mobs for odd appearances as 'guest stars' can give them more impact and cause fewer errors and space issues.
Locking down level ranges
Custom mobs have an available range of 1-54, which means that any hybrid groups will also have a range of 1-54... so used by themselves in a mission, no exemping or sk'ing will ever be needed.
But you may not always want this.
For example, if you're using mainly slag golems (20 - 30) but wanted to design a single custom minion to be mixed in with the standard mobs you would probably want any characters to be locked to the lvl 20-30 range.
Selecting single enemies as bosses/hostages/allys/escorts treats the specified boss/ally/etc as a group for range purposes, so selecting a single mob with the required range works.
Or use a standard group or Pick'n'Mix groups with the required level range as a pool group for something other than the mission default group - e.g. use it as a patrol, or to guard an object etc
In our slag golems and single custom mob example we could add a named boss slag golem. Or we could add a hostage rogue Arachnobot blaster (lt 20-30). Or we could have a patrol that uses the 'slag golem' standard group rather than the hybrid group based upon the slag golems. Or... Or.. Or...
It'd be better if the devs allowed us to assign lvl subrange restrictions to custom mobs/custom groups/missions or arcs - but until then, making a plot explanation to explain an odd mob as a 'level-lockdown' captive in a mission may be better than:
- having a mission that is broken for some character levels;
or
- losing the custom mob from the normal spawns.
Advanced Creative Lockdown
With creative mob selection you can lockdown level ranges to the union or intersection of the individual mobs/groups.
It may be harder to explain why there's an odd mix of mobs, but using Pick'n'Mix groups for a small pool group should let you mix several standard spawns to lockdown the levels to the superset of the individual mob ranges...
Example 1:
Let's say that you want to lockdown a mission to level 20-31 but can't find a mob/group that has that range.
Creating a Pick'n'Mix custom group that includes the following could be useful:
Arachnos - Nocturne - AV - lvl 20-27
Arachnos - Barracuda - AV - lvl 25-31
This Pick'n'Mix group will now have a level range of 20-31 (i.e. the union of 20-27 and 25-31).
Example 2:
Let's say that you want to lockdown a mission to level 25-27.
Create 2 single mob objectives (boss/hostage/ally/escort) using the same 2 Arachnos characters.
Arachnos - Nocturne - AV - lvl 20-27
Arachnos - Barracuda - AV - lvl 25-31
Nocturne locks down the range so it cannot extend beyond 20-27, Barracuda also locks it so it can't extend past 25-31. The only common ground is 25-27, so the mission will be locked to 25-27. This is the intersection of the 2 level ranges.
OK - so you don't want to try explaining why there are odd mobs in your mission?
You may not have to if you don't mind taking a chance...
A lot of objectives can be triggered to spawn after another objective/trigger is reached. And many of these objectives don't even need to be part of the mission completion criteria....
You can use this to avoid the lockdown mobs being spotted by most players.
Example:
Your main mission is full of 5th column (lvl 1-54) and has the objective of defeating a custom mob - but you really want to limit the mission to 25-27 to fit better with another mission in your arc. So:
- select the map;
- tell it to use 5th column (1-54) as the default group;
- add your defeat boss objective for your custom mob - beter if this is near the middle/back depending on map size;
- the mission is still lvl 1-54, so now comes the clever bit:
--- Add a Rescue the Captive objective for Nocturne (AV 20-27) that is triggered by the bosses defeat and that is not part of the mission completion objectives. Do not supply any dialog and place the objective to the front of the map.
--- Add a Rescue the Captive objective for Barracuda (AV 25-31) that is triggered by rescuing Nocturne and that is not part of the mission completion objectives. Do not supply any dialog and place the objective to the front of the map.
Hey presto - the mission is locked to lvl 25-27 but the 2 lockdown mobs do not spawn until the mission is complete, and then they spawn near the front of th emap when the players have already made it to the end of the map.
Ok - this won't be to everyone's taste - but it does work and shouldn't be noticed by most players, especially if you can explain the presence of the lockdown mobs in the plot.
IIRC some of the non-normal spawning mobs don't even count towars defeat alls - so, if you must do a defeat all, this may still work with them without needing to defeat the captive guards (I didn't test this bit yet).
note: testing this it was so unnoticeable that I thought that it hadn't worked at first - until I found the newly spawned 'Nocturne' - and that was on a small tech map! There were no tell tale objectives in the nav window, no mob dialog, nothing.
Boss Surrounding Enemy Group can be misleading.
I've noticed that selecting a custom group boss and using the the default 'Surrounding Enemy Group' can be misleading.
The default stays on the 'Standard' groups tab, and the group says 'Same As Boss' but because the boss is actually from a custom group, when playing this actually defaults to the mission group (which may be different to the boss group) and not to the custom group the boss is selected from.
Example 1:
Selecting Banished Pantheon as the mission group, and then a boss of the AV Judgement Dave (from my 3 AV pure custom group) and leaving the surrounding enemy group as the default settings. The enemies surrounding the JD Boss are Banished Pantheon.
Example 2:
Selecting my custom 3 minion group as the mission group, and then a boss of the AV Judgement Dave (from my 3 AV pure custom group) and leaving the surrounding enemy group as the default settings. The enemies surrounding the JD Boss are from the 3 minion pure custom group.
There may be similar happening with other triggered/objective spawns - e.g. around destructible objects - but I haven't tested all.
The lowby kheld-hater...
As in the standard dev-written missions, at high levels you sometimes see a low level anti-kheld mob. At the time of writing this was the lvl30 Warrior Quantum Gunner.
This happens when the very sticky kheld-bit decides that you need a special anti-kheldian enemy and none are availaable in the groups/ranges in your mission. The poor server panics and gives you a set anti-kheld... set as in it's not random, but it doesn't seem to be overtly-set by devs either.
What usually seems to be the case is that the program goes through its anti-kheld mobs and, finding none that are perfect match for your mission, throws out the last (or possibly first) that it looked at.
It looks like th etest server is currenly looking at mobs in alphabetic listing, so the Warrior Quantum Gunner gets chucked out as the 'default'.
I'll admit to not checking, but I believe that this can be avoided by adding an anti-kheld mob to custom groups... but who remembers to do that all the time?
BTW the kheld-bit is set if you are or have teamed with a peacebringer or warshade. Special anti-kheld enemies can be spawned whenever your kheld bit is set, and once set only relogging will clear it.
So if you're a defender wondering why you've got Quants in your mission, it's probably because you've teamed with a kheldian in this game session.
Why did custom mob X appear in this mission?
Be careful with your selection of custom groups to use for pool selection (mission default, guards etc). As soon as you pick a custom group for these duties the whole custom group is included in the story file.
This can have odd effects.
Example:
You have a custom group with a custom minion, custom lt and 2 custom AVs (copies of your main hero and main villain).
You Include this group as the map default and include the villain AV as the defeat boss objective. You've also got a hard ambush set to attack when the boss is at 3/4 health.
Testing it solo on heroic it looks fine with your minions and lts as normal mobs. Your end of mission boss is your villain-copy AV (downgraded to an EB) and all is well until... When the boss is at 3/4 health around the corner runs your heroic-copy AV mob (downgraded to EB)!
The problem here is that the heroic AV is included in the group and that there is a big gap in ranks (with no boss/EB) present in the custom group. Going through the bulk of the mission map was fine, as only minions and lts were required, and the server found these in the custom group. But when the ambush was spawned the server probably decided that something more than a minion/lt was required, and the server had to use an AV. It was either another version of the boss AV (which may have appeared as a lieut) or the first version to appear in this mission of the hero AV (so downgraded to an EB).
Admittedly I'm guessing that there was a hard ambush involved, but, in the first days of open beta, a poster on the EU forums had a problem similar to the above, and whilst I haven't seen full details the above scenario seems possible...
It's usually a good idea to look at your custom groups and only include in each group what you need for the mission/group. It's also usually a good idea to split out any defeat the boss objectives or EB/AVs.
Including 6 custom mobs in 3 groups takes up almost exactly the same space as putting them all in 2 or even 1 group, so use groups sensibly - don't stick all your characters together in 1 group unless they need to spawn together as groups. And bear in mind that you can assign the group appearing with a 'boss' objective, so you don't need them to be in the same custom group.
Note: including a single custom mob in multiple groups should include it multiple times in the story file.
Scaling on Solo Challenge Level 1 (and Odd Effects on challenge level 2)
The following is for MA arcs with custom mobs, not sure about if there's any non-MA changes or if it applies to standard groups/mobs in MA arcs.
It looks like at heroic the following degradation of high ranks is meant to happen:
* AVs -> EBs
* EBs -> Lts
* Bosses -> Lts
These have been seen by using single-rank groups of varying custom mobs (as detailed in the appendices). This scaling may not always happen, and may hav ebeen influenced by the lack of minion/lts.
But it also looks suspiciously like there may be an error in current (still Open Beta) spawning rules, as custom AVs appear 1st as an EB and then (for the 2nd and subsequent copies of any single AV mob) as Lieutenants.
It looks as if when the AV is 1st selected it is being downgraded to an EB as (IIRC) it should. But when the same mob is selected a 2nd or 3rd time the server already treats it as an EB, and so downgrades it to a lieutenant.
This can be seen clearly in the test results shown in Appendix 1 (post 7).
What can also be seen is that at challenge level 2 using just an AV-only group seems broken, with only a single specific AV (downgraded to an EB) appearing in the mission - the same AV in all test cases.
Challenge Level 1 seems broken in a similar way vs an all EB group, where each test contained a single type of EB (downgraded to a Lt) in th enormal (non 'boss' objective) spawns.
Now it is possible that these were just quirks of the pseudorandom number generator - after all I can flip a coin 10 times and get 10 heads. But it looks suspicious and warranting more tests... anyone volunteering?
Aside from quirks, solo at challenge level 2 the AVs become EBs, but EBs are EBs, bosses are bosses and men are men.
SORTED PROBLEMS
These are problems I've either experienced or seen reported that now appear to be resolved.
I mention them briefly in case they re-appear - knowing they once existed may help tracjk them down if they work their way back into a future build!
* Level range conflicts - why?
So you've checked your groups used and they all seem to overlap fine, but you're still getting an error about level ranges being invaild. Why?
Some mobs selectable as hostages have 'unusual' level ranges. For example, Flower Knight (in the Pets standard group) is lvl 1-1. Anecdotally, the editor was allowing captives to be selected whose range did not overlap with the rest of the mobs in the mission.
This appears to be corrected now, and it looks like you can't select hostages/groups that don't overlap with already in-mission entities on some part of the level range.
* Mobs how low?
On some settings (certainly soloing on heroic) it was common to see mobs conning green or blue. I think that this seemed to be overzealous mob-downgrading by the server, and I've not seen it for a few days so I think it's been addressed by devs.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
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Final thoughts?
Well I wonder if I've wasted my time testing the spawning as it's not practical for one person to test to test anywhere near every possible combination of custom mob mixes, hybrid group mob mixes etc at various challenge levels/character combat levels etc
Heck - All the testing that I did do was solo - spawns may vary greatly with teams...
Partly for that reason there's 2 appendices that include details of many of the tests that I ran for pure and hybrid custom groups.
If lists of numbers and the odd poorly written comment doesn't float your boat, then you may want to skip the appendices... but then you probably didn't make it this far anyway!
I guess that when creating arcs/custom groups the main things to remember are:
* Don't overdo custom groups - standard groups are more reliable and more space efficient (leave the custom mobs for odd appearances as 'guest stars');
* Watch the level ranges when using hybrid groups or 'random' standard minions;
* Be aware that only having 1 or 2 ranks in your pure custom groups can cause odd effects (see the appendices);
* Test your arc thoroughly & repeatedly, including at various difficulty, team sizes and combat levels if possible;
* Many odd spawns are avoidable.
There don't seem to be many true bugs in the spawning of mobs, but not knowing the exact implemented spawning rules it's hard to tell for sure.
I think that the only 'true' bugs may be:
- the 'Warrior Quantum Gunner' that appears if no group/range specific anti-kheld exists.
- a possible double downgrading on some mobs on solo challenge level 1.
It's even possible that these may not be bugs - maybe the devs see a lvl 30 Quant in a lvl 50 map as better than no kheld-hating enemy. Maybe the apparent double downgrading is perfectly WAI.
I'd appreciate any feedback - I'm pretty sure that I may have overgeneralised or included the odd mistake or twenty...
Assuming that some of this info is of use, I may try investigating a bit further and doing a revised version when I14 hits live. By that time I'd imagine that some of the spawn rules may have been tweaked and that this may need an update.
OTOH If it's generally seen as useless, incorrect hogswill than come I14 going live I'll be trying to forget about ever writing this!
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Appendix 1 - Test details and data listings for Pure Custom Groups
I created custom mobs based upon 3 of my characters:
* Judgement Dave - aka JD
* Exengel - aka Ex
* Bulk Logan - aka Bulk
I actually created versions of them at each combative rank (minion/lt/boss/EB/AV) and named them accordingly, e.g. Judgement Dave, JD EB, JD boss, JD lieut, JD minion.
I then created various custom groups of my 3 characters at the same rank, e.g. all minions, and a mixed 'all ranks' group which contained each rank of each of the 3 mobs.
The mission used was a specified small tech map with a kill all (using the group to test) and a boss JD mob from the group to test. The boss mob was named Judgment Dave - boss, JD EB - boss, JD boss - boss etc to enable me to identify them amongst other normal-spawn JDs.
The following data shows, line by line, the mobs encountered in individual tests. I've used shorthand, with brackets surrounding groups/spawns of mobs as, in the case of AVs, the 1 or 2 spawns nearest the player entry point are different to the other spawns in the map.
The notation truerank_scaledrank is used to show mobs that shifted rank (due to solo heroic difficulty). So AV_EB is an AV that appears scaled down to an EB.
All test runs for this were performed on 19/20/21st March 2009 - I don't think the client got an update in that time, although the server may have had various small patches and we wouldn't neccesarily know or be told!
vs Just AVs (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 1 -
*(All 3 AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others Ex @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD/Ex AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others Ex @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD/Ex AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(Bulk AV EB in next spawn)(all others Ex @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(Ex AV EB in next spawn)(all others Ex @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(All 3 AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others JD @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD/Bulk AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others JD @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD/Ex AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others JD @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD/Ex AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others JD @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(All AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others Ex @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(Ex AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(JD AV EB in next spawn)(all others JD @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(All AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others Ex @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
*(JD/Bulk AV_EB in spawn nearest door)(all others Bulk @ 1 or 3 +0/1 AV_Lts)
In all cases the 'boss' JD was appearing as a lieutenant (AV_Lt).
note: I think I missed 1 or 2 of my earliest tests off this list - when I realised that there was an odd effect (and that, at the time, Exengel was being picked for all lts) I started recording all test results.
You'll notice that in 12 runs (prob 14, as I say I missed a couple of early runs that I didn't write down straight away) Bulk was chosen as the repeated AV_Lt mob only once. And if there were only 2 mobs used for th emission, it was usually Bulk that was left out.
This may not be enough runs to be statistically significant, but it's starting to look like the pseudorandom mob picker may need tweaking for custom groups.
I wonder if standard groups hit similar oddities, but we don't notice due to the rang of mobs available (so the server doesn't need to do as much picking of next-best-choice)?
vs Just AVs (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 2 -
* (All spawns JD @ 2-4 +0/1 AV_EB)
* (All spawns JD @ 2-4 +0/1 AV_EB)
* (All spawns JD @ 2-5 +0/1 AV_EB)
* (All spawns JD @ 2-5 +0/1 AV_EB)
* (All spawns JD @ 2-5 +0/1 AV_EB)
* (All spawns JD @ 2-5 +0/1 AV_EB)
vs Just EBs (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 1 -
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 EB_Lts)
*(Just JD @ 1-3 +0/1 EB_Lts)
*(Just JD @ 1-3 +0/1 EB_Lts)
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 EB_Lts)
*(Just Bulk @ 1-3 +0/1 EB_Lts)
In all cases the 'boss' JD was a lieutenant.
Note: As in 5 tests I'm getting consistent single mob-usage and all 3 mobs have been used I'm happy that seems OK.
vs Just EBs (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 2 -
* (All spawns mixed mobs @ 2-4 +0/1 EBs)
All 3 EBs appeared
vs Just Bosses (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 1 -
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Bulk @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Bulk @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Bulk @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Bulk @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just Ex @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
*(Just JD @ 1-3 +0/1 boss_lts)
In all cases the 'boss' JD was a lieutenant.
Took a while to get a JD as only mob, but it happened so I know it can happen - stopped testing then.
vs Just Bosses (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 2 -
* (All spawns mixed mobs @ 2-4 +0/1 Bosses)
All 3 Bosses appeared
vs Just Lieutenants (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 1 -
*(Every normal spawn contained all 3 lts at +0/1 lvls)
*(Every normal spawn contained 1-2 different lts at +0/1 lvls)
*(Every normal spawn contained 2-3 different lts at +0/1 lvls)
*(Every normal spawn contained 2-3 different lts at +0/1 lvls)
In each case, all 3 mobs were present in each mission. Duplicate mobs within a single spawn were not observed, although the sample is quite small so this may just be the luck of the draw.
'boss' JD was a lt and was accompanied by a random mob Lt.
vs Just Minions (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 1 -
*(Every normal spawn contained 1-3 minions at +0/1 lvls)
*(Every normal spawn contained 1-3 minions at +0/1 lvls)
*(Every normal spawn contained 1-3 minions at +0/1 lvls)
In each case, all 3 mobs were present in each mission. ANd it also appeared that 1 spawn could contain duplicate mobs.
'boss' JD was a minion.
vs Just All ranks (JD, Ex, Bulk)
challenge level 1 -
(3 mixed mob minions at +0/1)(1 Lt at +0/1)(1 Lt & 1 minion at +0/1)
(3 mixed mob minions at +0/1)(1 Lt at +0/1)(1 Lt & 1 minion at +0/1)
For this mission the 'boss' was the AV version of JD, but in the mission he always appeared as an EB (i.e. AV_EB scaling). This is the usual solo heroic scaling of AVs becoming EBs, even though in the AV-only version he was scaled to a Lt.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
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Appendix 2 - Test details and data listings for Hybrid Custom Groups
Hybrid Test 1
I created a custom group using:
* my JD, Ex and Bulk AVs (all range 1-54)
* 5th Column - Nebel Elite Rifle - minion - lvl 5-19
* Crazed - Crazed Chopper - minion - lvl 40-44
You'll notice that the standard minions have spaces between 20 and 39, below 5 and over 44.
The mission used was the same as for Pure Custom Group testing: a specified small tech map with a kill all (using the group to test) and a boss JD mob from the group to test. The boss mob was named Judgment Dave - boss, JD EB - boss, JD boss - boss etc to enable me to identify them amongst other normal-spawn JDs.
Because of the group range, no auto-SK'ing/exemp'ing occurs.
The following data shows, line by line, the mobs encountered in individual tests. I've used shorthand, with brackets surrounding groups/spawns of mobs as, in the case of AVs, the 1 or 2 spawns nearest the player entry point are different to the other spawns in the map.
All test runs for this were performed on 21st March 2009 at Challenge level 1.
With a level 50 character - i.e. >44
Same results as testing Pure Custom Group of AVs - the AVs appear as Lts with initial appearance as EBs. No standard mobs were seen.
With a level 1 character - i.e. <5
Same results as a lvl 50 would have, only 49 levels lower. So all 3 AVs downgraded initially as AV_EBs and then AV_Lts.
Level 1 EBs may only be level 1 but they still aren't fun when your character is lvl1!
With a level 13 character - i.e. in 5-19 (Nebel Elite Rifle) range
All spawns were 1-2 Nebel Elite Rifle minions at lvl 13 +0/1. The 'boss' was a JD AV_EB.
With a level 30 character - i.e. in the hole between 19 and 40
All 3 AV_EBs, then all JD AV_Lts - except for the lvl 30 Warrior Quantum Gunner!
Didn't check with a character in 40-44 range, as I don't have one.
Testing at challenge level 2, with a lvl 50 - i.e. >44
Get all 3 AV_EBs appearing in spawns (of 2-5 at +0/1) at random - which is not the same as testing with the pure AV group at challenge level 2, but a mix of EBs is superficially the same as the pure EB group at challenge level 2.
Hybrid Test 2
I added a random crazed minion to a copy of my Hybrid group, so it uses:
* my JD, Ex and Bulk AVs (all range 1-54)
* 5th Column - Nebel Elite Rifle - minion - lvl 5-19
* Crazed - Crazed Chopper - minion - lvl 40-44
* Crazed - Random Minion - minion - lvl ??? - ???
Random picks don't display a level range and appear to be valid from lvl 1-54, even though they may be picking a random minion which has a lesser subrange from a group that also has a range of less than 1-54.
In this example Crazed has a declared range of 40-44, and the individual minions have a range of 40-44, but the random minion
Because of the group range, no auto-SK'ing/exemp'ing occurs.
With a level 50 character - i.e. >44
Very different result - the map is using lvl44/45 minions (picked at random) from the Crazed standard group.
The 'boss' at the end is now downgraded to an EB (i.e. AV_EB) probably as it's the first time the boss mob appears in the mission.
With a level 1 character - i.e. <5
Yikes! As I guessed it would be, the random Crazed minion is used at it's lowest levels - i.e. 40 (+0/1).
I didn't look past the 1st mob as at lvl 1 I had no invisibility/stealth and lvl 1 vs lvl 40 would be as close to 1-shotting as I like..
With a level 13 character - i.e. in 5-19 (Nebel Elite Rifle) range
Looked good at first, with the 1st floor being in-range minions only, but then...
Yikes! Second floor spawns were a mix of the Nebel Elite Rifle and the random Crazed minion at lvl 40.
This surprised me as I thought at this point that it would use only the in-range minion.
With a level 30 character - i.e. in the hole between 19 and 40
All normal spawns were lvl 40 random Crazed minions - except for the lvl 30 Warrior Quantum Gunner.
It was almost a breath of fresh air when I came to the 'boss' and he was a lvl 30 AV_EB!
Didn't check with a character in 40-44 range, as I don't have one.
Testing at challenge level 2, with a lvl 50 - i.e. >44
Pretty much the same as on challenge level 1: the map is uses lvl44/45 minions (picked at random) from the Crazed standard group and the 'boss' at the end is downgraded to an EB (i.e. AV_EB).
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
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Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Another thread/guide from JD - this one is 8 posts - WTH??
Three days ago I started taking a closer look at the mobs that were spawning from custom groups. Now, after little sleep and lots of caffeine, I present my thread/guide to groups and spawns.
This really is a big subject, and AFAIK we don't actually know what the intended behavious is, so looking for errors is more like looking for oddities and documenting it is like working out what a black box is doing... but I think that most of the info works for a practical use.
Having said that - there will be errors galore - please feel free to point them out - I'll be glad to learn what is actually going on.
BTW - as I say elsewhere, you can probably skip the 2 appendices unless you want to see what I saw whilst testing.
I'd sign off with 'enjoy' - but somehow that seems the wrong word.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
tl;dr
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
There is a huge amount of work in there, well done!
[ QUOTE ]
tl;dr
[/ QUOTE ]
Too abbreviated; didn't bother to worry about the opinion of someone who needs to express themselves in 4 letters and a semicolon.
Not serious - but couldn't resist.
There is a lot there and it's not an easy read along the lines of the 'beano', but hopefully there's some useful info there for people who do want to read it.
I'm guessing that some (most?) people will just curse or delete problem objectives/groups if they hit a problem in MA. Others will want to know what's happening and why - so they can identify true bugs, sort out problems and avoid hitting the same problems next time.
The thread/guide is probably more useful to the latter group. And the appendices are only of use/interest to anyone wanting to check what I did or investigate similar/different test spawns.
Corr - even my reply to tl;dr is probably worthy of a tl;dr response...
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Dave, you need an official forum title for your posts on this beta.
�How do I like my MMOs? I like them the way Paragon Studios used to make them.� - a fitting tribute from kiasa.org
EU, Union mostly.
Amen to that, Doc 
Nice work, I was pondering about doing my own guides, but I think I'll hang up the shirt and tie already
The one problem I've noticed with Fully custom mobs is that Bosses, even on invincible, and from 1-3 people in the team, never seem to spawn in normal mobs. So, they will spawn very rarely guarding a mission objective, if set to hard, and in the case I saw that there was only one boss guarding one of the glowies.
The bosses will fail to spawn in normal, non-objective mobs. Don't know if that's jsut something bugged up for me, or...?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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[ QUOTE ]
Don't know if that's jsut something bugged up for me, or...?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is normal for the game. Some enemy groups are slightly different weighting, but you typically need a team of about 6+ for bosses to commonly spawn.
Don't set your mission to "flat", and play on difficulty 2 or 4 to give you slightly higher odds on getting bosses with a small team. (5, invincible, increases the level of the mobs by 2, but has no effect on number or boss probability).
If you want to force bosses to spawn for small teams, you can have no minions or lts in your group.
As it's done on a "point buy" system, if a spawn includes a boss it will have fewer critters of other rank.
I really should do something about this signature.
Figures I guess, but I swear with normal mobs on invincible there tend to be Bosses in and around, even in smaller teams.
IIRC. I may not, of course XD Need to test with a bigger team.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Some normal mobs spawn more bosses for smaller teams, eg Banished Pantheon, Lost. Difficulty level 3 and 5 have equal chances of bosses spawning though. 2 and 4 increase the point value of each spawn by about 1 minions worth, and thus increase the chance of getting a boss.
I really should do something about this signature.
Righto, guess that bigger teams might start to spawn the Bosses then.
I thought setting an objective guard mob to Hard might give a boss, though? Or not, it seems.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well changed the diff to invic two days ago and me and another began testing his arc.
On heroic setting the "lieut" was upgraded to a boss wee. But even with Invic and two members no EB.
But Judgement Dave..
I wholeheartily /sign Dr toerags suggestion.
Special forumtitle to you!
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
My Excel Badge tool
Another great guide. Thanks Dave for all the hard work. It is well appreciated!
But you know you are absolutely bonkers to do so in the first place right? 
[ QUOTE ]
Another great guide. Thanks Dave for all the hard work. It is well appreciated!
But you know you are absolutely bonkers to do so in the first place right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I love such bonkyness. Cause he wants to help and share. Gogo Dave!!
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
My Excel Badge tool
OK, I give up!!
I can get my team of 5 EB's to spawbn, if the setting is right for the mish or the team is big enough.
Now, how on earth do I get it to spawn an ambush of just one AV?? No matter what I set it to, I get a team of them between 3 or 5 of the same character!!
We built this city on Rock and Roll!
[ QUOTE ]
Now, how on earth do I get it to spawn an ambush of just one AV??
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't, at least not at the moment, but we are promised some improvements to ambushes.
You can spawn your AV as a Boss Fight, but it will be in a static location.
I really should do something about this signature.
Well, boo and hiss, that completely messes up my plans then.
Curse you devs!! Foiled again!! *waves fist*
We built this city on Rock and Roll!
Simple answer: just now you can't AFAIK.
Ambushes don't usually spawn AVs/EBs - what they do usually spawn is a smallish number of minion/lts maybe bosses. I'd guess that the spawn generator is being called for an ambush spawn, and so looks at it's wandering monster charts...
These say it'll be an ambush of 1d6+2 mobs - so the server rolls a die, gets a 3 and says right that's 5 mobs of minion/lt rank at lvl x. Looking for minions/lts of lvl x/x+1, it looks at the mobs available in the group chosen for the ambush and finds one lonely AV. Not a minion/lt but it's the closest (and only) thing it has to use...
So it fills the 5 minion/lt spots in the ambush with 5 (possibly downgraded) AVs.
Doesn't help you achieve the (currently impossible AFAIK) single AV ambush, but that's the type of thing that's happening.
Still - I guess you may have wanted an AV ambush to be a hard challenging surprise... and what's a better, harder surprise than the Recluse quintuplets turning up itching for a fight!
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
I don't know if this has been said before, but I noticed a difference between a custom elite boss and a standard elite boss. The custom elite boss appears as lieutenant on heroic, but a standard elite boss (i used blade prince) still appears as elite boss on heroic. I also don't understand why the devs don't lower an elite boss to a boss, since it would follow the logic AV-EB, Boss-Lt (one category lower).
All you ever wanted to know about Groups and Spawns...
...Ok - maybe not quite 'All'!
We've been used to groups/factions of enemy mobs for years, but I14 allows us, as player/designers, to create our own groups.
No longer will we have to fight the well known standard villain groups such as 'Arachnos', 'Longbow', 'Trolls' and other dev-designed groups. Now we'll all have the opportunity to create new groups to fight with and fight against. These new groups can even contain our own custom mobs!
There's been (and still is) some confusion about about how mob groups work, custom mobs and spawns work.
I've noticed people wondering about:
* Why custom AVs are appearing as EBs or lieutenants?
* Why did custom mob X appear in this mission when I only wanted custom mob Y?
* Why does that lvl 29 warrior kheld-hater appear in my lvl 50 spawns?
I've decided to try answering these and other questions in my guide to groups and spawns!
I had, what I felt was, a decent working understanding of what happens when mobs are spawned and how custom groups seemed to fit into the scheme of things. Researching this has still given me a better idea of how some bits of groups/spawns fit together - so hopefully there's something new or of interest to everyone.
Oh - even if you know most of this, you may like to have a look at Advanced Creative Lockdown in the tips and tricks. It gives an interesting example of how objective chaining can be used to limit a mission range without the player necesarily noticing...
btw - Comments welcome (even negative ones). I'm bound to make mistakes and this is anything but exhaustive!
WARNING this is long and tries to be detailed. It's also quite a dry read. There is no tl;dr two word synopsis.
Note that I14 Mission Architect usually refers to 'villain groups' regardless of whether the group is villainous or heroic, an ally or an enemy. For this reason I'll use 'villain groups' and just 'groups' interchangeably when discussing them.
Contents
Post 1
1.1 - Introduction
1.2 - Contents
1.3 - Why have I Written This?
Post 2
2.1 - Groups, Groups and Groups
2.2 - Why is level range important?
2.3 - Where are these Groups?
Post 3
3.1 - Challenge Levels - aka rep/notoriety
Post 4
4.1 - Using Groups in Missions - Single Mobs and Pools
4.2 - How the Server Spawns Mobs from Pools
Post 5
5.1 - Example problems, Tips, Tricks and Oddities
Post 6
6.1 - Final thoughts?
Post 7 - Appendix 1
7.1 - Test details and data listings for Pure Custom Groups
Post 8 - Appendix 2
8.1 - Test details and data listings for Hybrid Custom Groups
Why Have I Written This?
I'd recently tried investigative-heroics, with my guide/thread on arc size limits, and I'd looked closely at lots of custom groups whilst trying to test the MA editor.
I saw that a lot of people are asking questions about groups/mobs/levels that, in many cases, I could help answer but that required a more than 20-word answer. Another guide/thread seemed the answer...
I wish it hadn't been the answer that struck me - groups and mob spawning is an odd old process. I honestly don't know if c.30hrs researching this guide has improved my knowledge or just shown me how little I do understand about what happens.
As such, I'm not guaranteeing any of this. I think it's what happens, and there's some interseting/useful observations, tips & tricks that seem fairly solid. But in other places you can probably point and laugh at my errors whilst driving a juggernaut through the gaps in my knowledge/testing!
If you find anything of use/interest here, then you'll possibly want to check out my other works:
Size Matters - Making the most of 100k
A look at arc sizes and what takes up the space. Some tips on cutting out the fat and an arcsize guesstimator that can help judge an arcs viability before you get anywhere near the MA editor.
MA Arcs showcasing my poor sense of humour:
Ei-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh!
Some dude called Marcus approaches you to help close down a RMT/PLing/farming operation. Contains custom EBs who could be real players in every bad PuG you're ever been in!
The foul-mouthed Handyman!
Innuendo and double-entendre as you battle the evil cowboy builders to get a shortsighted merchant banker his magazine back.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)