Merits for Story Arcs
By
CactusBrawler,
Posted on: 2008-11-10 06:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Guys.. Just, stop, please?
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
In an attempt to rerail this thread,
Could we keep the discussion to whether this is a problem?
FFM has a started a sensible thread on Training Room as to solutions.
Going back to the first, and useful, half of this thread I would summise...
1. 5 Merits = 1.25 million inf. The rewards for completing story arcs now far exceed previous levels.
2. It is almost inevitable this will cause "Story Arc Completion" fighting amongst PuGs (or even freinds), and encourage soloing, although the degree is debatable.
3. Removing the completion of story Arc bonuses deprives solo players (or those who play extremely casually) of any oppurtunity to earn merits. This is undesirable.
Any solution should entail:
1. Limiting or aboloshing selective merit awards to story arc completer.
2. Keep some mechanism for solo players (or those who dont TF/SF) to earn merits.
3. Keep some balance within the Merits system; i.e. not make them too easy or too hard to obtain.
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Guys.. Just, stop, please?
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^This
Guys, nothing is being achieved by sniping back and forth. All it takes is one of you to be the bigger man and stop responding. Please, do so.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
"Rude idiot" sounds... quite well actually.
It has some strange quality... as insults go. 
You could use it in your signature, Nightmarer.
Somehow it resonates a bit like "The magnificent *******"
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At the moment the person who owns the story arc gets a reward on completion, an SO and an XP/Inf bonus as well, now the SO has been practically useless for some time now but that's a tangible reward the rest of the team haven't been getting for an age.
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They get a small bonus at the end but ultimately they haven't received anything that the rest of their team hasn't. I do someone else's story arc and I still get xp, SO drops, recipe drops, salvage drops, in fact I get the very same opportunity of rewards that the mission owner gets, he just gets a very small bonus on top. Merits should work in the same way.
If merits are designed to encourage folk to get out into the game and see as much of the content as possible then I don't see the problem with giving a merit to everyone for completing a story arc mission, and then given the arc owner a few extra at the end of the arc for his bonus.
It won't affect me too much to be honest as I almost exclusively team with SG through the levels and we tend to make a large effort even now to each get the same contacts and do them simultaneously, but just because I can't see it affecting me too much doesn't blind me from the fact that the proposed system simply does not distribute the merit rewards fairly which it should do as a pre-requisite, regardless of how small a reward it will be considered to some.
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It won't affect me too much to be honest as I almost exclusively team with SG through the levels and we tend to make a large effort even now to each get the same contacts and do them simultaneously, but just because I can't see it affecting me too much doesn't blind me from the fact that the proposed system simply does not distribute the merit rewards fairly which it should do as a pre-requisite, regardless of how small a reward it will be considered to some.
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This is the main concern afaik, although to some extent the merit system on story arcs seems to be aimed to people actually play the content and not just radio missions, can lead to selfish PuG leaders that only do their story arcs, which for some will be meaningless while for some others won't.
Don't think it affects us that much here in EU servers since not everything here are radio missions, but people not playing the game content is a problem in US servers, I myself levelled a Claws/WP scrapper to lvl 30 in less than 1 week just with sewer run / PuGing radio mishes.
The main problem for many teams preferring radio missions instead of Story Arcs so far, was because of the Paragon marathon when to finish a Story Arc you had to go to several zones, while radio missions allowed you to team on same zone, now not only the zone change problem still exists, but also there's the added issue of merits which by some (many) might be perceived as an additional problem.
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I have a concern here. One of CoX's strengths has always been the laid-backness towards teams. You dont need to plan raids, be a certain AT / sets. You can just log on, join a PuG and have some(normally) freindly fun.
If merits are going to be dishes out for completing story arcs, I can see this coming under severe strain. Either people will choose just to solo, or people will start arguing about whose story arc to do.
I know that technically you could all agree to do simu-runs of story arcs, but in practice even with a regular team this is difficult.
Personally, I would plead for these rewards to be removed. It potentially threatens one of CoX's strengths, for scant benefit.
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I haven't read all the aggro, because we have had this before in another similar thread. But basically, all your concerns are based on a massive overvalution of what a merit is worth.
You have always got extra rewards for completing story arcs, and back when I first started playing, those SO where really worth something: it was rare to have a character fully SOed out before around level 35. However, it didn't have an adverse effect on teaming because the arc reward was small compared to all the xp you gain from defeating mobs.
This remains the case with merits. What is a single merit worth? 4% of a single random rare recipe. Completing any mission (including newspaper) gives you 10% of a random rare recipe (equivelent to 2.5 merits). The merit reward for sory arcs is insignificantly small.
The reason story arcs give merits at all, is it is simply impossible for some players to make the time commitments to do task forces, which reward merits at a far higher rate. It is just so these people are not left out of the system.
I really should do something about this signature.
By my calculations, PRAF, 5 merits is 1.25 millioni inf. And thats with the most conservative estimate (i.e. complete at level 50 and a Miracle+Recovery is 50 million).
A story arc bonus is, admittedly, not HUGE, but its there.
There WILL be strain on PuG's in terms of arguments. Possibly minimal, i would concede.
However, is this a risk worth taking? Bear in mind that new players are likely to be PuG'ing when they start. Surely we want a system that encourages freindly, casual teaming. A strength of CoX.
You are quite right in pointing out that solo'ers need some way of getting merits. I just dont think the system, as it stands, is good.
Id leave out the discussion about how big a problem this will be. Its kind of irrelevant, even if its a tiny speck of a problem, if an elegant solution / alternative can be devised, thats a good thing, surely.
For instance, the previous concerns about STory Arc COmpletion rewards changed the system to 10% chance of drop at end of mission for everyone.
Incindentally, the 10% drop of a recipe at end of story arc is a different pool to the TF drops (AFDAIK) whilst you may get a reasonable recipe you wont get one of the superduper ones.
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It won't affect me too much to be honest as I almost exclusively team with SG through the levels and we tend to make a large effort even now to each get the same contacts and do them simultaneously, but just because I can't see it affecting me too much doesn't blind me from the fact that the proposed system simply does not distribute the merit rewards fairly which it should do as a pre-requisite, regardless of how small a reward it will be considered to some.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the main concern afaik, although to some extent the merit system on story arcs seems to be aimed to people actually play the content and not just radio missions, can lead to selfish PuG leaders that only do their story arcs, which for some will be meaningless while for some others won't.
Don't think it affects us that much here in EU servers since not everything here are radio missions, but people not playing the game content is a problem in US servers, I myself levelled a Claws/WP scrapper to lvl 30 in less than 1 week just with sewer run / PuGing radio mishes.
The main problem for many teams preferring radio missions instead of Story Arcs so far, was because of the Paragon marathon when to finish a Story Arc you had to go to several zones, while radio missions allowed you to team on same zone, now not only the zone change problem still exists, but also there's the added issue of merits which by some (many) might be perceived as an additional problem.
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Another issue I'd like to raise is just how difficult and annoying somne mission arcs can actually be. Arcs with plenty of CoT, or KoA, or DE, or other heavy debuffers which can be a real slog, especially with lots of cave maps, and often a debt fest to even very good teams. Why would others want to battle through them, take the debt, take the hassel, the slow xp rate and slow rate of other rewards just so someone else, often someone they don't even know, can get a reward that they don't?
I like the concept of the merit system, and anything that encourages folk to get out and see as much of the game as possible is a great thing in my opinion, but the reward for that HAS to be distributed evenly and fairly, not just to the fella who clicks his contacts. Under the proposed sytem you could do every single arc on the game without clicking a contact and receive no merits, yet it's the clicking of the contact you are getting rewarded for, NOT exploring the game. That needs addressing imo.
As for the other chap disputing the "value" of merits... your argument falls apart the second you assume that everyone values merits the same. The concept of value is not a constant and shouldn't be treated as one. Different things matter more to different people. It is why some people complete missions and some people farm them, why some love a tank and why some think they just get in the way, why some people turn down team invites because they are badge-hunting, in fact it is why we choose the powersets we do and why we enjoy our favourite toons over all our others. That is why everything on the game should be distributed fairly, including merits.
One thing is for sure.. Ourobouros is going to be BUSY.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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As for the other chap disputing the "value" of merits... your argument falls apart the second you assume that everyone values merits the same.
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And yours just fell apart for exactly the same reason.
Not everyone is going to care about this aspect of merit gaining, most peoples primary reason for teaming is xp, or just being with freinds and this wont change it.
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As for the other chap disputing the "value" of merits... your argument falls apart the second you assume that everyone values merits the same.
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And yours just fell apart for exactly the same reason.
Not everyone is going to care about this aspect of merit gaining, most peoples primary reason for teaming is xp, or just being with freinds and this wont change it.
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My argument (apologies if I didn't make it clear) was that not everyone values merits the same, therefor they should be ditributed fairly, the same as ALL other rewards in the game. Not everyone likes making their own team or is capable of imposing themselves on a team enough to get their own arc done, or has the time to do TFs, which makes me wonder just what the merit system is rewarding as far as story arcs go, because at the moment it appears to me that you are being rewarded for clicking a contact and no more.
Obviously those who sit down for hours and get stuck into a TF deserve more rewards than those who don't. I have no issue with that at all. I also accept that those who value merits particularly highly will farm TFs and I have no issue with that either. But let's at least be clear about what it is the merit system is actually being designed to reward. Is it exploring content or is it clicking on contacts? All I ask is that ALL rewards in the game are distributed fairly, no matter how small they seem to some.
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My argument (apologies if I didn't make it clear) was that not everyone values merits the same, therefor they should be ditributed fairly, the same as ALL other rewards in the game. Not everyone likes making their own team or is capable of imposing themselves on a team enough to get their own arc done, or has the time to do TFs, which makes me wonder just what the merit system is rewarding as far as story arcs go, because at the moment it appears to me that you are being rewarded for clicking a contact and no more.
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I can see your point but 2 things spring to mind there, the person who owns the arc is doing a bit more than click the contact, he's doing the missions, and possibly leading the team.
Also i just dont think it is going to matter to that many people that not everyone in the team is getting those couple of merits, certainly not to the degree that it discourages people teaming anyway.
The last bit is just my opinion of course.
I'd say that you're being rewarded for sticking with that contact's missions and seeing the task through to the end, and to that I'd say a merit is a viable reward. You dont HAVE to do it, and I dont think you should just be handing Merits out wi11y nilly as that'll make a mockery of the whole system.
At first, when folks are half way through an arc, or (like me) the final click's being saved to get a sneaky merit for completion, it'll seem like you're being rewarded for clicking a contact. Once those loose threads are tied up you'll be onto the whole "sticking the arc through to the end" thing and you'll feel like you earned that reward.
Plus you dont need to team to do your story arcs. Even my empath can solo at the moment, and with multi builds I'll be slicing her personalities up into two distinct builds. She'll be fine facing anything that comes to get her story arc wise 
Tis true that everyone will have a different opinion of the merit system, just as everyone has a different opinion on every part of the game.
I'd like to see the whole team get merits, especially if they could implement a system like FFM suggests, but that's the whole point of discourse: to get ideas out about improvements etc.
I don't wanna save my soul now,
I just wanna lose control,
And even if it takes a lifetime, to learn:
I'll learn!
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I'd say that you're being rewarded for sticking with that contact's missions and seeing the task through to the end, and to that I'd say a merit is a viable reward. You dont HAVE to do it, and I dont think you should just be handing Merits out wi11y nilly as that'll make a mockery of the whole system.
At first, when folks are half way through an arc, or (like me) the final click's being saved to get a sneaky merit for completion, it'll seem like you're being rewarded for clicking a contact. Once those loose threads are tied up you'll be onto the whole "sticking the arc through to the end" thing and you'll feel like you earned that reward.
Plus you dont need to team to do your story arcs. Even my empath can solo at the moment, and with multi builds I'll be slicing her personalities up into two distinct builds. She'll be fine facing anything that comes to get her story arc wise
Tis true that everyone will have a different opinion of the merit system, just as everyone has a different opinion on every part of the game.
I'd like to see the whole team get merits, especially if they could implement a system like FFM suggests, but that's the whole point of discourse: to get ideas out about improvements etc.
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I can see some logic to that. For me the perfect system would be to award merits to all and a bonus to the arc owner for sticking to the task, but ultimately I guess we won't know how the system is working until it has been live for a good while and we can see how it is affecting the markets etc and it would appear sensible to err on the side of caution for now for that reason.
Oh, and Londoner - fair play mate Good points.
The thing for me is that I don't know what the devs are exactly trying to achieve by the merit system overall. Positron's initial announcement mentioned something along the lines of avoiding to grind a huge number of TF's to get a recipe. The way this is going to be implemented, that statement has gone the opposite extreme, you need to do quite a few more TF's to get the desired recipe (or fewer TF's but same amount of hours, time is what I count here since I don't mind doing as many TF's as possible, but I don't have all the time I'd like to have to do so).
If they wanted to encourage players to do other things than radio missions, Story Arc Merits just for Story Arc owner are not the best solution. If they wanted some kind of help to casual players who can't dedicate two hours for a TF (not that I'd pay monthly for a game if I can't sit at it two hours at least once or twice a week), they have failed miserably since such players who have, let's say 1 hour tops, they could get a rare recipe via Katie Hannon / Hess / Moonfire and now they won't be able to. I also suspect a casual player who can't dedicate time enough to do a TF won't probably be much fussed about the invention system overall.
If they intended some kind of "soft control" on AH prices for some recipes, there are better solutions, like limiting the time a bid can remain if nobody purchases, or even keeping the system exactly as it is now but grant and additional number of merits per TF, one or two per shorter TF's and up to, let's say ten for longer TF's, so you have your chance at a random recipe and accumulate merits towards your LoTG or Miracle Unique.
Anyway, the way I see it, implementing merits per Story Arc completion doesn't benefit anyone, specially now that XP will be increased again, while it can annoy lots of people who just don't feel like facing The Envoy of Shadows 3 times for the sake of making an anonymous PuG leader earn merits while they could be gaining XP/Inf on radio missions where you can choose who to fight and where (admittedly, these will be mainly stupid childish people who will get both sides, either the "my team only does my missions" position and the "I don't join your team because we are only doing your missions" on the other end of the stick, but they exist in this game as I witnessed recently, and a single one of them can ruin the fun of many in a team).
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PRAF, 5 merits is 1.25 millioni inf. And thats with the most conservative estimate (i.e. complete at level 50 and a Miracle+Recovery is 50 million).
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That's because your calculations are based on current (hyper inflated) prices.
After issue 13, thier price will come down.
way way way down.
Remember what happened to the price of costume recipes with only a small increase in thier availability?
I really should do something about this signature.
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PRAF, 5 merits is 1.25 millioni inf. And thats with the most conservative estimate (i.e. complete at level 50 and a Miracle+Recovery is 50 million).
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That's because your calculations are based on current (hyper inflated) prices.
After issue 13, thier price will come down.
way way way down.
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Will just recipe prices go down or the recipe prices AND the recipe supply?
Can you see many people grinding merits for a, let's say LotG 7.5% for selling it afterwards at a low price?
Ideally, if all recipe prices dropped in AH, get 25 merits and gamble on a random one wouldn't be a bad idea for SG members / friends who afterwards can trade them among themselves though.
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Can you see many people grinding merits for a, let's say LotG 7.5% for selling it afterwards at a low price?
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No, people will tend to buy what just want they want for themselves with merits, killing demand for the rare recipes.
At which point, if you want something to sell, you are better off taking a 25 merit gamble, since the resale value of other pool C/D recipes, like trap of the hunter, will have gone up.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Can you see many people grinding merits for a, let's say LotG 7.5% for selling it afterwards at a low price?
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No, people will tend to buy what just want they want for themselves with merits, killing demand for the rare recipes.
At which point, if you want something to sell, you are better off taking a 25 merit gamble, since the resale value of other pool C/D recipes, like trap of the hunter, will have gone up.
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So basically we're swapping the recipes with inflated prices in AH?
Then I hate the system because I'd REALLY love to see after a TF "Yay! A Trap of the Hunter" by someone who really means it.
My intention will be to try and play like the merit system isn't there. I dont think it will make as big a difference as the drop rate does now (if I want inf at the moment teaming is the last thing I'd think of doing, merits will enforce this rather than change it).
I'm not fussed if someone gets 2 merits from a story arc, if I had fun doing it. If I was after earning something I'd be soloing, thats how this game goes. Team for fun, but know that you're encouraged to solo if you want gain
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
It should level the prices out. At least that's the theory. Whatver is expensive in the AH, people will choose with merits, and demand will dry up.
The price of Purples will rise astronomiclly though, since you can't get them with merits.
I really should do something about this signature.
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It should level the prices out. At least that's the theory. Whatver is expensive in the AH, people will choose with merits, and demand will dry up.
The price of Purples will rise astronomiclly though, since you can't get them with merits.
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Which is why I bought the confuse purple set now, knowing that at the cheapest set its probably the last I'll ever be able to afford
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
As far as I am concerned I was wrong and apologised. You still obviously felt and still feel, the need to spout, so I responded.
Yes I feel you are rude, arrogant and frankly do not represent your country very well, however, I was not getting at Spaniards in general. Only the rude idiot, that is Nightmarer.
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