Issue 13...upsetting the apple cart?
By
Archy,
Posted on: 2008-11-06 19:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
You can upset the City of Heroes applecart just by looking at it funny. By this point, too many people have cried wolf way too many times for me to have even the slightest care. At least they'll get eaten first.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
^ What he said, personally, i've been on test and tried it out, and so far i like it. And to be honest i'm betting that the majority of users will too, because I know many players who don't use the forums, in some cases don't even read them lol.
But until it's live, it's still a beta...b e t a....meaning it can change anytime, anywhere, and the build we might have now, could be 2, 3, 7, 12 generations old compared to the one that the devlopers have internally. And those can change daily, or even more often, so we (and i mean us and eu users) will never have the to-the-minute version to play with, it would change to fast - Can you imagine trying to play on coh if the server was updating daily or more frequently....thought not.
The difference between the moaning about this and the moaning about ED is that there was'nt an alternative to this game when ED happened.
There is now, and as for people crying wolf, read what i just said again.
Ok so the noob is here
hes got his beer
Just found out AVs are immune to fear!
I cant wait for this issue to go live 
Im a big fan of the flashback system and with the merits i have even more reason to do those long arcs again. To save a thousand worlds - here i come again!.
Also regarding recipes drying up, remember the only ones that have potential to dry up are the lesser used ones from the TF/SF pools, if anything this will raise the cost of buying them from the auction house since there'ld be less for sale which then has a knockon effect of raising the price of them eventually (im already stock piled up on ones i THINK will be big prices after a few weeks of this going live).
QOL issues like a shadow shard temp power and little history teachers in hazard zones are pretty neat little additions which im defo going to use. Pocket D tper and facemaker will please many a roleplayer i imagine.
Multi-builds . . . . . . with the APPs getting an additional power im really struggling to think of which builds to use. Most of my characters will make full use of this (which again makes the market more full of buyers) and another neat feature to get.
New missions. Was hoping for a bit more missions than this but meh it was his first attempt ingame (iirc?) so i'll put my 
face down for now. If they live up to the standards of the ITF then it'll be full of win.
PVP changes - unlike most pvpers im a fan of low lvl pvp and mostly arena at that. With the buffs/debuffs being widespread and having the option to choose your arena maps im going to be one of those people happy with it. I already know of a few people i pvp with who are looking forward to this too (probs because our toons arent getting nerfed but buffed ).
Powersets: Shields from the get go was very MEH to me, however the custom options available to us have forced me to want to make one 
They just look so cool!!!! I dont care about stats/figures/waever, as long as it looks cool . . . . . i'll like it.
Day jobs - I'll have to wait until it goes live to comment.
PVE power buffs - Very good choices! Especially the kheldian fixes, makes my warshade a killing machine again!
Overall? Yes im very happy with this issue, the game needed a major overhaul and it looks like theyr in the process of doing this. Whether it turns out to be for the better or good we wont know for at least a few months.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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ED
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Damnit Londoner...you've done it now...I explicitly avoided refering to THAT thing
To be fair what I'm getting at is that these are major overhauls to the system, overhauls that probably should have come about very soon after their respective Issues (9 for merits, 4 and 6 for PvP I think).
While I do see the value of what's being done, it it's pulled off poorly and comes across as too much of a 'nerf' to which particular aspect it focuses on, people will still be peeved.
The devs need to handle and handle with care with regards the large scale changes.
To many losing the current PvPers doesn't seem like losing a lot of people (and means that the devs can just annex PvP from the game and focus on PvE) but it's still a loss of people who have taken their subscription fee elsewhere.
initial Open Beta does have a habit of being pretty much the final version (minus some minor tweaking or any major bugfixes) which goes live, minor bugs included (the Icon Bug from Issue 12 for example) and it tends to be more a 'stress test' by throwing as many people as they can at something to see if it breaks.
Still raising concerns in a forum (much less the EU forum) doesn't seem to be the way to go, the majority of players don't post in the forums and nobody can really claim to speak for them.
Just my thought that with the situation as it is, it could go either way.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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completely removing the random roll chance
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It is possible to purchase both Taskforce and Trial random roll recipes for different level ranges from the merit people for 25 (TF) and 35 (Trial) merits.
Defiant
H L50s Doctor Mangler (MoSTF),Phobos,Ms Magma,Hai Karate,Blue Marvel (MoSTF),Joanna Sapphire (MoSTF)
V L50s Bella-Donna (MoLRSF),Ms G,Sulfur (MoLRSF),Doc Mangler,Volga, Noctis Viduata
Globals @ Doc M, Doc.M, Doc-M
My take on the things about I13 I have happened to read;
Merits; I am extremely happy with this (with the corrollary that I have yet to actually TRY the system, so perhaps I should say I like the IDEA)
New Powersets; Love new powersets, will definitely be trying them out.
New costumes; Always happy with new costumes (again, I have to say I haven't actually seen them myself)
Day Jobs; a nice touch, not something I am particularly excited about, but a pleasant addition to the back story of my characters. Anything that makes me think about my characters as more than just a means for gaining xp is welcomed by me.
APP/PPP changes; This is the first feature announced that has ever made me go, 'I don't like that'. ED? No bother; GDN? don't care. Some of these changes however... hmmm.
PvP changes; although I don't personally PvP from what I have read I can't imagine it to be working as intended. Of course this impression is taken from second hand accounts rather than personal experience so perhaps it will, with time, come to be understood more and accepted as a good thing but for the moment it has made me even less likely to join in with PvP.
Bases; The reduction in cost of various items is a fabulous thing however I hear that teleporters will need Hamidon Goo to create which indirectly makes them much more expensive and will likely prevent me from making a larger base, something I would dearly like to do.
Overall a mixed bunch of good and bad impressions although I think the good does outweigh the... less than good. Of course, others may well give these different issues greater or lesser weights.
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Day Jobs; a nice touch, not something I am particularly excited about, but a pleasant addition to the back story of my characters. Anything that makes me think about my characters as more than just a means for gaining xp is welcomed by me.
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I am much more happy with day jobs since I discovered the Wentys transporter for the AH job ))
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966
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Bases; The reduction in cost of various items is a fabulous thing however I hear that teleporters will need Hamidon Goo to create which indirectly makes them much more expensive and will likely prevent me from making a larger base, something I would dearly like to do.
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already cleared up, you actually have three recipes to create them, one of which includes the hami goo, while the other two look to be alot cheaper, i forget where i saw this but quite sure it was mentioned in the test forum or base forum sections.
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I hear that teleporters will need Hamidon Goo
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A tech basic telepad can be made from 1 of the following 3 combinations:-
1) Computer Virus, Polycarbon, Luck Charm and Plasma Capacitor
2) Circuit Board, Steel, Rune and Reactive Gas
3) Temporal Analyzer, Titanium Shard, Fortune and Platinum
And magic basic telepad from: -
1) Clockwork Winder, Temporal Sands, Simple Chemical & Psionic Manifestation
2) Alchemical Silver, Symbol, Inert Gas & Black Blood of the Earth
3) Ruby, Destiny, Silver and Hamidon Goo
Defiant
H L50s Doctor Mangler (MoSTF),Phobos,Ms Magma,Hai Karate,Blue Marvel (MoSTF),Joanna Sapphire (MoSTF)
V L50s Bella-Donna (MoLRSF),Ms G,Sulfur (MoLRSF),Doc Mangler,Volga, Noctis Viduata
Globals @ Doc M, Doc.M, Doc-M
Ooh, thankyou for that.
Reading these replies and the talk about the further changes for APP/PPP (if I understand this new change correctly) I am now much happier!
There is more information in the base section of these forums with links to some informative threads on the U.S. forums.
Defiant
H L50s Doctor Mangler (MoSTF),Phobos,Ms Magma,Hai Karate,Blue Marvel (MoSTF),Joanna Sapphire (MoSTF)
V L50s Bella-Donna (MoLRSF),Ms G,Sulfur (MoLRSF),Doc Mangler,Volga, Noctis Viduata
Globals @ Doc M, Doc.M, Doc-M
I definately think that I13 is going to upset the apple cart, no doubt about that.
I first started playing the game shortly before ED and the forums at the time were awash with players saying that the devs had killed the game and that they were going to leave. A lot of people did (so I hear) but then I went on to have the best 3 years gaming ever!
Recently the game had started to feel a little stale to me, I knew it inside out and there were relatively few suprises (usually provided from other players rather than the game itself). So I took a little break.
I'm planning to start playing again properly once I13 hits, and for good or for bad it will seem to me like a whole new game. Lot's of changes and tweaks that I'll need to learn and new content I can enjoy.
So while I can sympathise with people who feel that their game is going to be broken, I can look at it completely selfishly and start playing it fresh, in its new form.
So I guess I cant really comment yet on whether the changes will be good or bad for the game in the long run, I can say that it is something radically new, and for me that's a good thing.
Changes always upset the apple cart (whatever that means 
) off some people, I myself was (am) still hurt over the Claws buff at the price of Focus.
In the particular case of I13, if I were upset about anything, it would be the lack of changes for me personally, let's see:
-PvP changes: Whatever, I don't PvP tbh.-
-PPP changes: Seems they're pedalling back now but anyway, even if they didn't, in my particular case only 1 char was slightly affected, however I feel this movement could had been very good if handled under another approach.-
-New Powersets: Whatever, Empathy was never my cup of tea (deleted my fire/empath at lvl 36) so Pain Domination does not really affect me. Similar thing happens to Shields, we all know Shields were the most voted because accross the Atlantic everyone secretly dreamed of their Cap America version, but never liked the concept except for the comedy value of rolling maybe a Captain Afghanistan or a Captain Iraq, Captain Cuba or even a Captain Confederation.
-Day Jobs: Whatever, if they want to give me something for doing nothing, up to them, not going to reject a prefent free of charge even if lame.-
-New Story Arcs: Always good, a new and challenging TF would have been also very welcome.
-PvE powers tweak: Good, not that I felt the ones that interest me mostly (Dark Melee and Invuln) needed tweaking, but can't complain about the results tbh, could even try an Elec/Energy Brute or maybe DM/Energy.-
-Merit System: I don't like the looks of it, but yet to try it. Tbh what upsets me most of this system is the change from Posi's initial announce where it was supposed to be an option to existing rewards.
I like doing TF's and some of them are mandatory (*sigh, Positron) for accolade so I'll keep doing them anyway, before I had the chance of a good/useless recipe, now I get supermarket vouchers and I need to do quite a few TF's for same chance of same recipe or grind quite an awful lot of TF's for the desired recipe... I guess I can live with that since, as I said, I like TFing and I like some accolades. Another concern of mine is that it might affect PuG's, well, yet to see, can't see myself doing Dr. Quarterfield farms, at least until a bright minded genius finds out how to break it and do it in 90 minutes tops (anyone wants to bet that it will happen before a couple months?).
Anyway, as Dr. Mechano said, time will tell about these changes, for me the game remains pretty much the same before and after I13 and that would me my complain if I had to make one...
Well, that and Castle posting details and info about PPP changes only in US servers, reminded him of his "forgetfulness" on first one and even posted there a link to the EU thread discussing them since I am sure he's very interested in our opinion too, but he forgot to post here a second time (thanks Maelwys) and cba to remind him twice since I don't like him anyway. We try to convince ourselves that we are not second class users, but dammit, thay make it hard.-
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-Merit System: I don't like the looks of it, but yet to try it. Tbh what upsets me most of this system is the change from Posi's initial announce where it was supposed to be an option to existing rewards.
I like doing TF's and some of them are mandatory (*sigh, Positron) for accolade so I'll keep doing them anyway, before I had the chance of a good/useless recipe, now I get supermarket vouchers and I need to do quite a few TF's for same chance of same recipe or grind quite an awful lot of TF's for the desired recipe... I guess I can live with that since, as I said, I like TFing and I like some accolades.
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Well you can roll for a random TF recipe for 25 merits...which is basically the same. And all TF's seem to give at least 25 merits meanwhile others give more so you could get 2 the chance for 2 rubbish recipes :P Or you could save up and make sure you get a good one (Well, more than a good one, the exact one you want...if you want any...)
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Well you can roll for a random TF recipe for 25 merits
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Yeah, I know that much
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...which is basically the same
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Erm, no?
After I13 you won't get recipes for running Katie or Hess once, you'll have to run at least 4 Katies for same chance you have now. If such short TF's deserved a rare recipe or not is another story, but nope, it's not the same.
I personally think running a Katie Hannon TF or a Hess does not deserve a, let's say LoTG 7.5% recharge, but with the quantity of useless recipes available in the pool, they certainly deserved a chance per run instead of same chance every 4 runs.
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And all TF's seem to give at least 25 merits
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Erm, no?
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meanwhile others give more so
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Yep, I also know that much since I posted the value table in another thread, still, not gonna farm Positron or Quarterfield, no matter how many credits they grant.
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you could get 2 the chance for 2 rubbish recipes :P Or you could save up and make sure you get a good one (Well, more than a good one, the exact one you want...if you want any...)
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Still not going to farm Posi or Quarterfield, and for the amount of credits needed for some recipes such as LoTG or Miracle, if you take into consideration the time you have to spend TFing (either through 3 x Quarterfield or 36 x Katie Hannon, considering 6 hours for each Quarterfield and 30 min for each Katie, around 18 hours TFing ) you have far more chances to get the desired recipe pkus a few other useful ones as the system stands now by investing that time doing random TF's and if you are THAT unlucky that you don't get anything decent after 18 hrs TFing, you surely will have generated enough inf to purchase the desired recipe anyway.
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...and if you are THAT unlucky that you don't get anything decent after 18 hrs TFing, you surely will have generated enough inf to purchase the desired recipe anyway.
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Yea, I was this unlucky and no I did not have the right amount of inf to buy what I wanted and the recipes I gained from the TF's were rubbish. This is why I welcome the merits. I'd rather know I can definately earn them while playing gaining inf and not lose an incredibly large amount of inf once I have enough (Or in my case recently save up so much only to discover I still dont have enough as the people selling were asking far more than what had previously been sold).
And in total I think my bad luck spanned quite a bit more than 18 hours....
Well Merits has disgouraged me from TFs at the moment, grinding for assured income I can already do. The random element I liked.
Strangely the TF I will still always go for (cause its just the most fun) wont actually give me a random chance now, but as it was the only one I played for the fun rather than the reward hess is still good to go, the others I wont have to worry about arranging teams for any more. I guess forgetting about them makes it easier to game casually
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Once in a while, apple carts need dropping off a cliff.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Well Merits has disgouraged me from TFs at the moment, grinding for assured income I can already do. The random element I liked.
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Remember, there is a "pay smallish number of merits, get a random recipe" option in the new system. For if you really miss all those Pacing of the Turtles.
My impression of I13 has been much the same as that of other issues, with just a twinge of disappointment that there arent any changes to the base editor (the flame of hope is still being nurtured for I14 to bring me happiness). That is to say, there seem like some interesting changes and additions in there and Ill have a look at them when I can, but the game, as a bit of fun and a social medium, goes on unchanged.
I therefore read this thread and thought, oh, what have I missed. Maybe I should have paid attention to the thread about APPs and PPPs. So I went and read the start of that thread again, and got bored.
As a casual player of the game, with friends who play both casually and with spurts of intensity, Id like to think that Im reasonably in touch with the average user who, lets face it, doesnt even look at the forums. (Certainly out of the eleven people I know, who I suspect are average players, Im the only one who even knows where to find them.)
From our point of view the things that sound interesting are the new missions, and the new power sets, with some of the QoL changes looking good as well. We have varying degrees of technical knowledge about the game, but I can bet the life of my cat on the fact that none of us know what an APP or a PPP is. The changes to these, as with the changes ED brought about, will just mix in with our general game play and probably never be noticed. PvP some of us have tried and while fun it was just a lot of bouncing around and pressing as many buttons as possible, not like the tactile, thought provoking, situations the missions give.
Merits, much like the introduction of the AH/BM, will be something that I suspect none of us will notice for quite a while. The Day Jobs will be something to have a bit of fun with when we can be bothered (sometimes due to RL its a matter of get the mission done and log-off wherever you are as there isnt time for anything else).
What Im getting around to saying in my normal, verbose, way is that a lot of whats mentioned both here and in the other threads sounds like maths professors discussing the 35th digit of Pi. For us Pi is 3.14 something and anything beyond that has so little to do with our lives that it doesnt really matter. Not that Im saying it might not have an influence on the game we play, but Im happy to bet another one of my cats lives on the fact that I wont hear cries of, Oh, that change of 0.21 seconds on the animation time of one of my attacks has ruined my game, Im off to play WoW.
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I therefore read this thread and thought, oh, what have I missed. Maybe I should have paid attention to the thread about APPs and PPPs. So I went and read the start of that thread again, and got bored.
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No need for that now mate, basically APP's/PPP's remain as they are and you will have another one added to choose from at lvl 44.
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What Im getting around to saying in my normal, verbose, way is that a lot of whats mentioned both here and in the other threads sounds like maths professors discussing the 35th digit of Pi.
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Now, I am no maths professor but... the 35th decimal place is 8... what more is there to discuss?
>_>
<_<
what?
Reading various posts on both the EU and US forums with regards the many changes brought in with Issue 13 there seems a whole lot more of the doomsaying or general dissatisfaction than with any other previous Issue I've been here to experience (well maybe Issue 9 may have come close).
Perhaps it is to be expected, the game is going through massive changes with the Merit reward system and the new way PvP 'works' it looks like a major overhaul.
I can now see why Issue 13 was going to be considered huge with all its content originally intact (Mission Designer, VEATs, PvP changes, Respeccable Patrons and changes, APP changes, new missions in Cimerorea and elsewhere) however obviously a lot of the bigger hitters have been removed reducing the hefty payload.
I think the problem is that there is the potential to really hurt the game with the changes in their specific area if utilized in a poor manner.
PvP Changes) If they don't encourage more people to PvP, more people than the leaving 'hardcore' PvP crowd leaving (as it would seem the majority of them are willing to cancel subs if the PvP system the way it is goes live) then the whole major overhaul may as well have been for nothing.
Merits) The potential to kill the market with completely removing the random roll chance and only merits could remove a lot of the 'lesser used' recipes from the market, causing supply to dry up on things like Fear, Confuse, Snipes and Slows.
Hmm I've never before seen such a major overhaul to the way the game works and heard such outcry from more than a few people. I wasn't here for 'that' particular round of major nerfs (it's like Macbeth, you don't mention the thing to do with enhancements lest you bring about more doom to a thread) but judging from what I've been told it doesn't quite match upto that in terms of the spread of Doom and gloom, it's just a hell of a lot higher than I originally thought it would be.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!