Blue Steel - future opponent?
By
Blue Rabbit,
Posted on: 2008-09-02 18:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Frostfire, a civilian, tries to help and gets given a jail term when things go wrong.
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PCC idea: you are Frostfire's parole officer. Help him to become the hero he always wanted to be.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Here's the thing a lot of you guys forget: the Clockwork King had killed and brutalised a number of people with his creations prior to that incident.
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And who's to say that:
1) The guy BS beat up was actually the right guy at all? There's a reason courts and things exist, rather than the police officers on the ground dispensing instant justice whenever they suspect they've found the perp.
2) He wasn't being mind controlled/Confused/etc... by some puppetmaster type, and was effectively a victim himself.
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Furthermore, anyone who uses a weapon set, a variation on fire, etc, has no right to complain about the guy with the shield.
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Oh, I think they have. 
That's all well and good, but doesn't change the fact people who use excessive force are whinging about excessive force when it isn't them using it. Rare does the complaint focus on anything to do with due process.
It's "BLUE SHIELD, BAD".
Reminds me of all the fuss over Longbow being a "private army", with a "set uniform". Let's just overlook Supergroups for a moment...
I dunno, Blue Steel just always seemed a bit seedy to me after the Clockwork King business.
Now, the problem with repurcussions for all is that the game has no concept of dark heroes. The idea was kind of added in over a couple of years in background and the comics. The original idea from a game mechanics standpoint is that everyone is a legally registered hero and it's only roleplaying that allows you to be a straight vigilante. The game still assumes that you are on the straight and narrow at all times. So, despite the fact that my finishing move on that guy I'm arresting was Golden Dragonfly (aka Headsplitter) and he should be in two pieces, miraculously I did not chop him in two and he's now on his way to the Zig (the only prison in the world with swing doors on the cells).
Perhaps if they ever get that Going Rogue system working and you can stray from light to dark, there will be a midpoint where you can be fighting evil, but doing it in a way people wouldn't like. Contacts would need to change (though I can't see Indigo or Crimson minding if your methods are a little rough) and maybe you get some dodgy reactions from some people you would expect to be on your side. Maybe boss mobs could offer to surrender before reaching zero hit points, and you slide toward the bad side if you then go ahead and finish them off.
Anyway, I'd like for there to be repurcussions for PCs too, but Blue Steel's tale is a background thing and could have them. Both BAB and Manticore got 'punished' for their bad behaviour. Blue Steel created a major criminal matermind by acting in on revenge and got away with it because no one officially knows what he did. Police cover-up...
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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That's all well and good, but doesn't change the fact people who use excessive force are whinging about excessive force when it isn't them using it. Rare does the complaint focus on anything to do with due process.
It's "BLUE SHIELD, BAD".
Reminds me of all the fuss over Longbow being a "private army", with a "set uniform". Let's just overlook Supergroups for a moment...
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All the fuss over Longbow is over their ridiculous spandex outfits.
Who thought "I know. I'll form a private army. And I'll dress them in the sort of outfits you usually see at gymnastics competitions"?
Worrying-private-army-with-pseudo-fascist-overtones or not at least Vanguard dress decently
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Reminds me of all the fuss over Longbow being a "private army", with a "set uniform". Let's just overlook Supergroups for a moment...
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I doubt even the largest SG can match Longbow for size and combined power. And the city did not call upon the SGs to police the streets, they got Longbow in, a private organisation, rather than what should have happened in that situation which is that the National Guard should be patrolling the streets.
I don't really care that they have a uniform. I kind of care that they are there to handle a threat (Arachnos, not the Rikti) which has never materialised and they have never been stood down.
Was there ever a convincing in-game reason for planting Longbow all over the place? Or a OOC game reason for that matter?
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Oh, I don't know, there was just the small matter of Arachnos getting into the city via Siren's Call. I found the complaints hilarious really.
"Oh noes, these NPCs are doing something we've been doing for years already! 
"
But, eh. YMMV and all that.
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That's all well and good, but doesn't change the fact people who use excessive force are whinging about excessive force when it isn't them using it. Rare does the complaint focus on anything to do with due process.
It's "BLUE SHIELD, BAD".
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Hey, we use the tools we're given - if the devs (= the Gods of the game world) choose to make things like axes and firebursts available, and not mace sprays and billyclubs, what can we do?
And at least we use them with restraint - subdue the targets until they're teleported off to the Zig's medibay for an asprin and cup of cocoa. Unlike a particular Blue PPD rep, who did far more damage with a far less extreme weapon.
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Oh, I don't know, there was just the small matter of Arachnos getting into the city via Siren's Call.
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Then they should be parked all over Siren's Call and Steel Canyon. What are they doing in Atlas Park and Galaxy City where you don't see a whole lot of Arachnos there. Interestingly, the only Longbow officer in Steel Canyon is the one that was put there for the intro mission to the PvP Zone.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Then they should be parked all over Siren's Call and Steel Canyon. What are they doing in Atlas Park and Galaxy City where you don't see a whole lot of Arachnos there.
[/ QUOTE ]Not to mention Longbow's military activity and occupation of territory in a sovereign state (namely the Rogue Isles).
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Then they should be parked all over Siren's Call and Steel Canyon. What are they doing in Atlas Park and Galaxy City where you don't see a whole lot of Arachnos there.
[/ QUOTE ]Not to mention Longbow's military activity and occupation of territory in a sovereign state (namely the Rogue Isles).
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Meh, they can do what they like over there. Place is a military state anyway.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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I can understand folk who want there to be repercussions for all, but singling him out when almost anyone on these forums routinely cripples and brutalises is a tad hypocritical in my view!
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True, but an MMO where your powersets address the underlying causes of crime and villainy just isn't going to catch on. An "Improve Education/Champion Racial Tollerance" scrapper is going to level really slowly... not to mention he/she will suck at PvP
Your 'Introduce free school lunches for low income families' hits Skull Bone Daddy, causing feeling of social responsibility in future years
My objection to Blue Steel is perhaps simpler than many of the valid points made above. The senence that does it for me is: "Blue Steel beat the man nearly to death and left him for dead. This man's body was never recovered, and was beaten beyond repair."
(Now, there is a bit of a dichotomy in that sentence but, that's not heroic. In fact if any law enforcement officer in the real world was caught having done that they'd be facing jail time themselves. Rodney King anyone?
Yes, in a violent society such as Paragon City, there will be serious collateral damage and lives will be lost (notice however that heroes NEVER kill anyone outside of RP.) The use of deadly force would obviously be sanctioned against people who are controlling giant monsters that roam the city, such as the Clockwork etc but, once that person had been brought to book, where they alive, then the judicial process should take over. Should the suspect be killed during the course of such an event, then an inquiry would need to take place to determine if the arresting forces acted within their jurisdiction.
I cannot see anything in BS's story that shows that he acted within his authority nor can I see any sign of repercussion or remorse in his actions.
Personally I think that either he needs to be moved to CoV as some kind of Vigilante NPC/Trainer or at the very least needs to be rebooted by the powers that be.
(edited to add that I fully agree with Standoff that Frostfire got a really tough deal and I think he needs to be rehabilitated.)
Thelonious Monk
Wah wah
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My objection to Blue Steel is perhaps simpler than many of the valid points made above. The senence that does it for me is: "Blue Steel beat the man nearly to death and left him for dead. This man's body was never recovered, and was beaten beyond repair."
(Now, there is a bit of a dichotomy in that sentence but, that's not heroic. In fact if any law enforcement officer in the real world was caught having done that they'd be facing jail time themselves. Rodney King anyone?
Yes, in a violent society such as Paragon City, there will be serious collateral damage and lives will be lost (notice however that heroes NEVER kill anyone outside of RP.) The use of deadly force would obviously be sanctioned against people who are controlling giant monsters that roam the city, such as the Clockwork etc but, once that person had been brought to book, where they alive, then the judicial process should take over. Should the suspect be killed during the course of such an event, then an inquiry would need to take place to determine if the arresting forces acted within their jurisdiction.
I cannot see anything in BS's story that shows that he acted within his authority nor can I see any sign of repercussion or remorse in his actions.
Personally I think that either he needs to be moved to CoV as some kind of Vigilante NPC/Trainer or at the very least needs to be rebooted by the powers that be.
(edited to add that I fully agree with Standoff that Frostfire got a really tough deal and I think he needs to be rehabilitated.)
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I agree with you, but fundamentally (and I know you get this, but I wanted to say it anyway), no matter what powersets you choose and what you bring to your characters actions by RPing, we live in a MMO world set up in such a way that violence is always the answer.
Because of this I don't think this game is really set up to provide a moral message on the rehabilitation/judicial consequences of a vigilanty.
Just my 2 inf.
Can't anyone spot the answer?
ITS ALL A NEMESIS PLOT!
Actually being serious here, who's word have we got that it was actually Blue Steel who beat up the Clockwork King?
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Because of this I don't think this game is really set up to provide a moral message on the rehabilitation/judicial consequences of a vigilanty.
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And imo it never should, because it is just that. A game.
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
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Perhaps there's a sinister reason why Blue Steel got away with it that we can expand upon in the Mission Creator
Much like
BAB (the character) being responsible for the Superadine trade, whilst publicly taking it down
Longbow being (really!) well hidden 5th Columnists
Statesman and Lord Recluse actually having swapped personalities years ago
And other such gems which despite being well written, will never get dev approval
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
WHAT A TWIST.
But, meh. I could already tell where the Blue Shield debate was going. One low set of standards for us, an absurdly higher one for them apparently.
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Your 'Introduce free school lunches for low income families' hits Skull Bone Daddy, causing feeling of social responsibility in future years
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Very much LOL 
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BAB (the character) being responsible for the Superadine trade, whilst publicly taking it down
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He isn't. Well... according to Paragonwiki. 
Contact Information!
Twitter: @TonyParkeze
Facebook: www.facebook.com/anthonyjp91
Email: anthonyjp91@gmail.com
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BAB (the character) being responsible for the Superadine trade, whilst publicly taking it down
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He isn't. Well... according to Paragonwiki.
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Erm... you do know that the whole point of doing something secret kind of compels you not to publish your nefarious activities on a wiki, right?
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
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BAB (the character) being responsible for the Superadine trade, whilst publicly taking it down
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He isn't. Well... according to Paragonwiki.
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Erm... you do know that the whole point of doing something secret kind of compels you not to publish your nefarious activities on a wiki, right?
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Maybe you're getting him confused with his Praetorian counterpart? 
Contact Information!
Twitter: @TonyParkeze
Facebook: www.facebook.com/anthonyjp91
Email: anthonyjp91@gmail.com
I don't understand the objections to Blue Steel. The situation is unrealistic in that he didn't immediately kill the Clockwork King at the earliest opportunity anyway.
The man had already murdered a police officer with his little toys, and engaged the raid team with the intention to kill. And they did, three more police died. If he had been caught up to by any member of the police force, he would have been shot dead on sight. No if, no but, dead. Blue Steel should have rammed the edge of his shield into that mans neck at his earliest possible chance, and gone to lunch with a conscience like a baby. The Clockwork King is a cold blooded murderer and used lethal force to evade justice, he's lucky the SWAT team didn't give him a decidedly more fatal 5.56mm enema.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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I iz Kat Scrapper. I don't have an issue with excessive force, but it is, technically, 'unheroic' to beat some snot-nosed kid to a pulp because he killed a cop. Blue Steel should have known better, but he lost it and there were no repercussions.
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Well, there haven't been any repercussions for the player Heroes either...
>.>
That's my issue with complaints about the guy, really. I can understand folk who want there to be repercussions for all, but singling him out when almost anyone on these forums routinely cripples and brutalises is a tad hypocritical in my view!