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IMHO the next generation of MMO's will provide as far as possible for infinite progression this seams inevitable, with this in mind is it not a case of keep up or fall by the wayside?
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Hmm this I doubt but for one thing...
Level caps provide a solid and obvious goal, it's the 'carrot on a stick' method of play. People want to hit 50(CoX)/60(Original WoW)/70(Burning Crusades WoW)/80(Wrath of the Lich King WoW)/whatever simply because once they're there, their character is at the height of their power and can begin the more mightier quests of taking on the biggest of the big bads (Statesman/Recluse/Hamidon or the Raid progression in WoW).
Some games like WoW the meat and bones of the game doesn't really begin until you're AT the level cap whereas CoX is more about the journey through the levels with your character.
Even I admit the 40-50 can be a git of a grind, sometimes feeling like the bar barely fills with XP each mission (unless you run ITFs/LGTFs to level your character) but fill it does, this would probably explain why I have only 1 50 and 3 characters at 40+.
Edit: Though saying that one obvious example of a level capless game is Eve, though that's more about spending time aquiring skills so playing for long enough to get those skills to pilot (and the harvesting of resources so you can afford) the bigger ships becomes the goal instead of a level cap.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
A level cap rise would destroy this game. This isn't a grinder's MMO (like Lineage 2) or a raider's MMO (like EQ), it's a casual MMO - we need more content and more powersets, yes, but what we dont need is more levels.
Level-cap raises only keep power-levellers busy for a few weeks (/days
) then theyre crying for another cap raise - it also cheapens/expires existing end-game content and focuses both players and Devs only on the most recent endgame content: The Devs struggle to produce content at the rate the fastest levellers consume it, to provide as much raid/dungeon content at the new cap as there was at the old level cap, while at the same time making the next expansion to raise the cap again - this means that the current highest level areas of the game receive 90% of the Dev teams attention and the low/middle levels get more and more neglected.
Ive played MMOs with regular level-cap raises (like EverQuest) and generally the low-end game becomes dead very quickly, few players have time for more than 1-2 alts (and they dont play those that seriously) in addition to their main character, and the strong focus on raiding/grinding means that casual players get treated like second class citizens if they cant keep up. Eventually the bulk of the playerbase is at the high-end too and the lower levels are dead because nobody has time to spare to play alts anymore - all too busy levelling in the next expansion, and because the cap eventually goes up so high it's not worth making new alts as they take too long to level to where 99% of the playerbase is (at the level cap).
For that reason I think CoH's fixed L50 level cap, and the strong encouragement to play alts when you get there, is largely responsible for the strong friendly community here and the games strong subscriber retention - by pushing players into creating new alts rather than sticking with one character you feed a lot of veterans back into the lower levels, where they meet new players, pass on in-game knowledge, form new friendships and strengthen the community - this doesnt happen much on the raid/grind MMOs that constantly raise level caps annually and most of them have terrible communities.
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For that reason I think CoH's fixed L50 level cap, and the strong encouragement to play alts when you get there, is largely responsible for the strong friendly community here and the games strong subscriber retention - by pushing players into creating new alts rather than sticking with one character you feed a lot of veterans back into the lower levels, where they meet new players, pass on in-game knowledge, form new friendships and strengthen the community - this doesnt happen much on the raid/grind MMOs that constantly raise level caps annually and most of them have terrible communities.
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The most important paragraph you'll read all year - CoX Monthly
I don't really know any other MMO's well but surely the 278 powerset combinations on heroside alone (not including epics) has perhaps more to do with the rampant altitis than a lvl cap has.
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For that reason I think CoH's fixed L50 level cap, and the strong encouragement to play alts when you get there, is largely responsible for the strong friendly community here and the games strong subscriber retention - by pushing players into creating new alts rather than sticking with one character you feed a lot of veterans back into the lower levels, where they meet new players, pass on in-game knowledge, form new friendships and strengthen the community - this doesnt happen much on the raid/grind MMOs that constantly raise level caps annually and most of them have terrible communities.
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The most important paragraph you'll read all year - CoX Monthly
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QFT.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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I don't really know any other MMO's well but surely the 278 powerset combinations on heroside alone (not including epics) has perhaps more to do with the rampant altitis than a lvl cap has.
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Sure that plays a part too - even moreso that you can completely customise your power choices and slotting here for even more variety, when class progression in other MMOs follow more linear paths - but EverQuest 2 has 24 classes multiplied by 18 races (15 when I played) - plenty of variety to encourage altitis, yet most players that I knew stuck to one main character (as did I), with maybe a lower level alt for mucking about with occasionally, because there was still plenty of raid/group content you wanted/needed to do when you hit L50 to keep-up with your guild.
Level cap and class/archetype variety play a part, but we also level much much MUCH faster here in CoH than in any other MMO I've ever played - hitting the level cap so quickly and easily encourages altitis too - as does the relative lack of much endgame content. Raiding especially in other MMOs persuades you to stick with a single character as not only would it take ages to level-up another alt to raid-level, but equipping them to acceptable raid-standards would take even longer (while your guild carries on moving forward - and you dont want to fall behind!).
That's why other MMOs are so top-heavy, with most players at the level cap or doing their best to reach it, and not playing alts. I still think CoH's way is better, funnelling the veterans back into the levelling system through alts - and it fosters far less community-dividing elitism than raiding MMOs have.
Having not really played other MMO's I don't really understand the concept of 'Raiding' in the context you are using it could you clarify for me please?
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Having not really played other MMO's I don't really understand the concept of 'Raiding' in the context you are using it could you clarify for me please?
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The simplest version is...
Do the same instance/cave/whatever over and over to beat the final boss for loot/to get a certain item.
Thats about it. We are ofcourse talking about extremly rare loot and usually a very powerful boss.
And usually you need the rare loot to be considered worthy in other players eyes... Creating elitesm.(hi WoW)
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Having not really played other MMO's I don't really understand the concept of 'Raiding' in the context you are using it could you clarify for me please?
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The simplest version is...
Do the same instance/cave/whatever over and over to beat the final boss for loot/to get a certain item.
Thats about it. We are ofcourse talking about extremly rare loot and usually a very powerful boss.
And usually you need the rare loot to be considered worthy in other players eyes... Creating elitesm.(hi WoW)
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Not always the case, normally you raid to acquire items that allow you to progress to a harder level. For instance I raided with my Guild in WoW at Karazhan (spelling?) this was a fairly easy end game instance, the items I could have gained from here would have helped me had we/I moved on to a harder instance. In CoH terms it would have been like doing lots of STFs to get purple IOs making it possible to raid LGTF.. though obviously in CoH itemisation is far lower and even someone purely slotted with SOs can raid either.
Yes there is a certain amount of 'My gear is cooler than yours' in any MMO, I'm sure there are people in CoH who get purple sets for the kudos of having a full set rather than the actual real world benefit that said set actually gives them.
Though from what I have seen on my own PvE realm most of the gear that people got for coolness stakes was stuff you needed to grind for or be in the right place at the right time, invisible tiger mounts, mounts that normally only dropped for the opposite faction. Or items that only dropped once in the servers history. Those were cool and did have a wow factor, but most of the gear you got from end game instances was possible for everyone to get providing they put the time into earning them... or bought the gold to buy them off the AH. 
@OP:
Personally I wouldn't want to see a level cap increase, or a system whereby I could add slots/powers to an existing level 50. I would like to see more end game content that isn't grinding the same missions over and over or PvP, but for me and I suspect a large proportion of the player base CoH is more about the journey and less about the destination. If I want to raid I can play several games that put far more emphasis on raiding, CoH is the best game for the journey though... probably why I keep coming back. 
At the very least I would like the XP counter to turn into an INF counter at lv 50, its quite depressing to see it stuck there doing nothing. At the very worst it might be nice to turn said INF into further Enhancements slots after a killer Task Force (which you are able to solo).
@Boy Wonder
Quantum Flash - Ill/Kin Controller
Leader of the Legion of Heroes
Not really a Task Force if you can solo it, is it?
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Having not really played other MMO's I don't really understand the concept of 'Raiding' in the context you are using it could you clarify for me please?
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The simplest version is...
Do the same instance/cave/whatever over and over to beat the final boss for loot/to get a certain item.
Thats about it. We are ofcourse talking about extremly rare loot and usually a very powerful boss.
And usually you need the rare loot to be considered worthy in other players eyes... Creating elitesm.(hi WoW)
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That's very vague and sounds rather like dungeon-grinding (which admittedly raiding is just a large scale version of). This explanation may get kinda long so Alphane fully appreciates the horror of raiding. I know more about raiding in other MMOs than I want to anymore, but these observations are mainly from EverQuest (I did raid in EQ2, but not seriously, and didnt bother in WoW - they both made raiding much easier/shorter and more interesting than it was in EQ).
The key thing with raiding is it takes multiple teams/groups - if proper raiding were even possible in CoH/V then it would involve, say, 16, 24, 32 etc players - i.e. a multiple of the existing 8-player teams. The closest we get to raiding here is Hamidon and the Rikti Mothership, but it's not really a formal raid because the teams are not linked together in-game, just through common consent to follow a leader, and everyone gets rewarded.
Raids are:
<ul type="square">[*]Multiple teams joined together by the game to create a "raid" force. In EQ it went anywhere from 18 people up to 72 (3-12 groups) but you could take as many people as you felt you needed. In EQ2 it was mostly 12-24 people (2-4 groups) while WoW used to be 40 players (8 groups), but has dialed that down to 10-25 players now (2-5 groups).
[*]Doing zone content created purely for raids, whether instanced or not, that single groups cannot do at all (well, not at same level range) - some MMOs lock you out of raid instances completely unless you have multiple groups - youll never see them without raiding
[*]Random dropped loot, and not enough of the best stuff - most people on the raid get nothing for their time - it promotes people raiding the same content over and over and over again until everyone gets what they want/need
[*]Raid content is usually intended for guilds (i.e. supergroups) who can work out ways to divide the limited loot fairly between raid members without trouble, and are likely to stick together to do the raid again and again and again to equip everyone.
[*]Raid calendars - guilds that raid often have to plan in advance as the raid will not be possible without full numbers and certain key classes present - if you don't show up to a raid you were meant to turn up at you could be penalised or even kicked out (depending how serious your guild is)
[*]Raid loot systems - the above leads to meta-currency systems like DKP (dragon kill-points) where you earn "points" with your guild by attending raids, that you can then use to "buy" loot that drops in future raids - but if someone else has more DKP (i.e. better raid attendance) and really wants that same drop then they can outbid you for it, but by spending DKP it makes it less likely youll get something again for a while (unless something dropped that no-one else needed/wanted).
[*]Raid loot far superior - a level 60 in full top tier raid gear is so much stronger and more capable than a level 60 in normal group gear, it's almost like the gap between a L50 granite tanker tanking Honoree/Romulus here and then a L25 fire tanker trying it...
[*]Definite raid progression - raid content is divided up into "tiers" - if your raid force isn't more-or-less completely equipped from the previous tier then you don't have a hope in hell of being able to defeat the content in the next tier - this is what creates the elitism and leads to guilds trying to be "top tier". To imagine raid progression here, it would be like not being able to do the ITF until you'd done the LGTF 20+ times to get everyone the invention drops they needed to do the ITF, then having to do that another 20+ times to get the Inventions everyone needs to have a chance of completing the LRSF/STF, then having to do that another 20+ times to get the Inventions everyone needs to have a chance at defeating Hamidon.
[*]Massive time investment - your guild will expect you to raid with them as much as possible and some raids in other MMOs can take a loooooong time, e.g. 6+ hours all at once (I even had a weekend raid in EQ1 that went on for 18 hours once - and my guild and I once took 12 hour shifts for a whole week just watching for a raid mob to randomly spawn that we desperately needed a piece from, then had to race the other guilds who also needed it to get a raid force assembled). Then theres all the time wasted sat around doing nothing - an hour or two before the raid for transporting everyone there, making up the teams and making sure everyone knows the strategy - an hour or two every time the raid wipes to recover corpses with everyones gear (the now-naked monks/necros/rogues would drag/summon those out to a safe place) so clerics can resurrect everyone to try again (fortunately WoW/EQ2 did away with corpse loss).
[*]Useful classes and abilities - only certain classes in other MMOs are seen as raid-essential - usually the very specialised/focused ones that are best at a certain thing (tanks, nukers and healers/buffers - basically like tankers, blasters and defenders here) - hybrid classes are usually not wanted unless they have a specific skill/power that is useful.
[*]Limited gameplay - the previous point also leads to raid gameplay where you might only be needed for one of your skills/spells/abilities and the raid-leader will want you to ONLY use that single power constantly so you don't waste mana (i.e. endurance) that you need for it.
Example: Clerics in EQ in Complete Heal rotations spring to mind - this spell took 10secs to cast but completely healed the tank, so youd have 3 clerics casting it 3.3 secs apart for the entire fight on that tank to make sure he was totally healed after each attack by the raid mob - as Clerics ran low on mana another standby cleric would step into the rotation to take their place, allowing the low-mana cleric to sit out and regain mana (most of my raids ran with 5-10 clerics in total). Some fights were impossible without CH rotations - 10 hour raids could get very boring for clerics 
, yet they were essential to raids so people played them to feel wanted. The Clerics would get to use their buffs too before each fight, but otherwise the other 50+ spells they had would go unused.
Example 2: Shamans in EQ raids were needed mainly for their buffs before the raid, but only for their slowing spell during it - if they couldnt get slow to land on the raid mob (due to a resist/miss) then the whole raid would pretty much wipe (i.e. everyone dies), but it caused so much aggro that even when it did land the raid mob would kill the shaman in one hit first before the warrior (tank) took aggro. Shamans were expected to just suffer this mandatory death for the good of the raid because there was no way the tank could survive that raid mob un-slowed. And that was back when you LOST experience and maybe even your level on death - it might take hours of dungeon grinding in a team to get back the xp from one death.
Example 3: Warriors in EQ were the only class that could tank the top raid mobs, and were judged purely by how many max hitpoints they had - most top raid mobs hit for more damage than 99% of warriors in the game had - this is why raiding tanks needed raid equipment to up their HP - it was quite common for a L60 raid tank to have double the HP of a L60 non-raid tank. If another warrior in your guild overtook you on max HP then youd lose your main raid tank place, regardless of other factors.[/list]And yes, some guilds took/take raiding very seriously, and to reach top-tier you really do have to treat it like a job - some players like that - even I did at first - but it really grates on you after a while and lots of players burn-out, feeling as if they're just being treated as a cog in a machine by their guild.
I never made it past 3rd tier in EQ1 (I was offered a place in a 2nd tier guild, but didnt want to leave my friends in my guild behind), but still we were pretty much raiding every night for 6 hours - the last straw in EQ for me was spending every night for 3 months in Temple of Veeshan to gear up our entire guild of 50+ players for the Luclin expansion raids - I got so bored of that place and then when I got just about the best chestplate in the game for my rogue and felt relief rather than happiness, and everyone else seemed happier for me than I was for myself, I knew it was time to quit.
The warning signs had been there before though - Id burned-out a few times - leading 72-person raids made up of 3 guilds was horribly stressful (glad I only did that once), and like a fool I once led a 54 person raid while also dual-boxing as main tank (warrior) and main puller (monk), while also running DKP for the raid and transporting everyone there and back afterwards with my druid 
WoW and EQ2 really were super-casual compared to original EQ, but they all seem rather hardcore compared to our beloved CoH/V - so now you see why Im here - I wanted a pick-up-and-play casual MMO, rather than a life-eating second job that gives you regular nervous breakdowns if you want to see/experience the best story content
And that explains the kind of game you get/need if youre going to consistently raise the level cap. Anyone still up for doing that?
i don't consider WoW hardcore, but that's beside the point
Presuming that the devs subscribe to the same Philosophy as Valkryst, you can be damn sure that they'll want to avoid that scenario at all costs. Casual MMO being one of the main draws for repeat subscribers
Heck, one just needs to scroll up and re-read his earlier point, I shaln't repeat it, as it hammers the final nail in this thorny coffin
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Presuming that the devs subscribe to the same Philosophy as Valkryst, you can be damn sure that they'll want to avoid that scenario at all costs.
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I do hope so - I realise I might seem somewhat zealous about this, but there really is no other MMO out there AT ALL that is as casual-friendly as CoH/V, but there are tons taking the more hardcore path.
I want CoH to keep its level 50 cap, keep the multi-alt focus, and keep the casual innovative gameplay - and I'm willing to fight to keep it that way! There are very few MMOs I'd want to go to from here... ok, none... if this game became just another WoW/EQ/EQ2 clone.
Anyone who wants raiding, level-cap raises, constant paid expansions, and (dare I say it) more involving/widespread PvP (yes I dare!) has dozens of other MMOs that can serve them better without trying to change CoH/V to fit. Most of us like CoH/V just the way it is.
erm thought when i read the title....NO
thought when reading the posts.......NO
thoughts about this now?.............NO
do i want this to happen ever?.......NO....at least till they have covered every issue and only when lvl 60 will be good for the game. for now. so many will be pee'd off with this, i dont see this happening. sorry
but a nice thought though
also. i dont fancy saving up for new lvl 60 IO's
Given such a good solid foundation it would be a shame to not expand in anyway possible and change to the demands of it's market, not to do so for fear of becoming like another game is in the long run potentially fatal commercially IMO.
To be honest your previous experiences sound like a nightmare mate. But there is too many other things involved to clearly analyze the impact of raising levels
( Gear>skills, unfair distribution of rewards, constant repetition to progrees (kinda think all MMO's will be guilty of this for a good while yet), Rigid and probably 'Rigidly enforced there guildy' (Dread to imagine the arguements involved in that one) team dynamics, significant real world commitment, there's probably more.).
As an aside here Valkryst I read your post on Airports and It reminded me in one aspect at least of an idea I was mulling over a while ago concerning expansion that involved Sg's earning vehicles that essentially unlock new map areas (Van-small town, facories, country parks/estates,
Jeep-Woodland,Coast,Lake,
Helicopter-Islands, Ships at sea, Mountains
Jet- World interest maps, both geographic and man made,
Shuttle- Orbiting stations, A Moon or Mars base, Battle ships)
Unfortunatly this now sounds distresingly like a 'Raid map' idea.
You see to my point of view I'm not sure a game capped at lvl 50 would thrive for another 4 glorious years or twice as long again hopefully. Can I really see myself in 2016 still playing CoX my only aim in life to increase the % number of powerset combos available that I have lvled to 50 ???? but then maybe I just got a short attention span.
And Hardrider through your toys out the pram FTW mate! only telling you cos I love you though don't shoot the messenger.
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playing CoX
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This tickled me in a very Beavis and Butthead way.
'HUHUHUHUHU dude, that guy just said he was {Quote}, HUHUHUUHUHUHU'
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And Hardrider through your toys out the pram FTW mate! only telling you cos I love you though don't shoot the messenger.
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How is it throwing his toys out of the pram just to say he's still against the idea? He didn't make any whiny comments at all.
I'm also against this as extending level caps to me is always a cheap cop-out. And note I am not jettisoning my recreational plastic goods from the perambulator at high velocity.
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And Hardrider through your toys out the pram FTW mate! only telling you cos I love you though don't shoot the messenger.
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Eh? What on earth are you talking about? Hardrider made a perfectly reasonable "don't like it, so no" post.
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I personally have never lvled anything over 40 as the epic system IMO sucks eggs
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Do you mean the epic powers? Because if so, you don't have to take them. And you missing a LOT of content and good contacts/arcs from level 40+. And how can you agree to a level cap rise if you haven't reached 50 yet yourself?
It doesn't need rising and never will.
Less talk about levels more talk about content we like more content
Heroes: Phobos-, Protector-Bot, Shadow of Ra, Bionic Eye, Entropic Chaos, Strike-Freedom.
Villains: Necron Phobos, Khorne-Berzerker, Full Metal Panic, Smasher Devourer, Degrees Kelvin.
Co-Leader of The Echelon
Visit us at http://www.theechelon.eu
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also. i dont fancy saving up for new lvl 60 IO's
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this is part of what will make sure it will never happen, the L50 ones already are getting you the the caps of how much they can enhance you, the L60 ones would be no different. the entire game is calibrated for L50 as the cap, to raise the level cap everything would have to be rescaled.
dude ur a player after my own heart i want to hit lvl 60 so i can get a few new powers and slots plannign to make my main to be more team fightin built though wouldn't mind being able to get 2 epic power sets if they do increase the lvl cap to 60
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IMHO the next generation of MMO's will provide as far as possible for infinite progression this seams inevitable, with this in mind is it not a case of keep up or fall by the wayside?
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and which of those would they be than? I'm abosulty fasinated to hear you pontifcate on it.
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Err that was the next generation not THIS generation but glad someone other than myself finds my pontification fasinating.
*pontifcate
Ok sorry maybe I'm being fasicious but I see a problem developing in the world of MMO's what was originally based on single player games of limited duration have become 5-10 year projects given that wouldn't it be advisable to think about the next 5-10 yrs now instead of being trumped by the biggest best new thing and all our work (devs hard work and our play time) go to waste.
*/pontifcate