I'm not sure if thats totaly true for all people.
I for one enjoy the challenge of playing a character type that is totaly oposed to everything I value, but then I am an active and experienced lrper/roleplayer too and used to playing everything from "shiney mortal heroes" to "the scum of the earth".
For me part of the problem with playing a villain in this game is that there is limited scope for character progression, my characters can not really become redeemed/fall and few people are going to run story-arcs where characters are liable to be killed or locked away for long periods of time.
Thus removing a good portion of the risk element.
Ability to effect the world is an issue too.
I also think that the lack of world information is crippling for this setting, there is so much that is not said that I personaly think is important.
Examples:
-Super-powers in professional sports? is it allowed or is it deemed unfair?
In fact how are they viewd in life in general? Psychic and telepathic powers would surely be an issue if you were in buisness.
There's also the likely problems caused by the medical teleporters and their impact upon the religious world, and the human psyche.
"the bleed"
immersing yourself in a character will inevitably lead to emotional bleed.Some learn to ignore it, some take it personal.
I personally choose not to play megalomaniacs (not psychopaths. i got plenty of mentally unstable characters) not because i find them emotionally taxing, but because they're almost always 1 sided, bland characters.
I think you've got something there, though maybe not all of it. It is indeed true that the social requirements of our would-be villains will usually quickly overpower the characters own personal evil.
This is, in fact, less a failing of the villain character as it is ourselves. As roleplayers, our entire motivation for creating these character is to interact with those of other players, and to create a character who will be quickly shunned is anathema to this.
Personally, I enjoy playing evil masterminds, megalomaniacs, and psychopaths. It is a challenging task admittedly, but therin lies the fun. But in every circumstance, this will either be in the guise of an NPC, controlling force, or forum villain.
Not because their actions begin to wear on me, but because I want my main characters to be at least partially accepted, so that social interactions can continue.
It could be interesting, of course, to form a society of true 'evil' villains, and force them to interact. But i feel that such an experience would quickly become a chore.
The simple reason is - every evil mastermind wants to rule/destroy the world, with everyone as his subordinates, not discuss the day's villainy over a mug of beer with his peers.
That is where, I believe, the real barrier will always lie when introducing evil characters to roleplay.
Thoughts?
@Shadow Phoenix - Union roleplayer and number-cruncher
Hmmm...
This is a tough one. My main villain (Psychonova) is a complete psychopathic nutjob wrapped in a relatively friendly exterior. I enjoy RPing him (but there are various IC reasons why I don't do so very often), but prefer my hero characters far more. He's not too much of a drain on my emotions, though I will freely acknowledge that he is a drain on them, but only when I actually let his utterly sadistic side out.
So, I'm inclined to say that this theory has a pretty good basis in fact, but the mark of a good roleplayer is to know when to step back from the psychotic nature of the villain, take a time out, and get back in touch with reality.
Having said all this, I think I'll take him for a spin in PD tonight.
[Edited for spelling]
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
I agree that most villains aren't really...villainous, in all senses. Most of mine before aren't. My main on Defiant before I came to Union was a drugged up Troll who enjoyed destroying things (SS/Inv Brute) but I never really got into roleplay there.
Over here on Union...none of my villains I've never stuck with. Because they were all a bit lacklustre :P
I like my villains to be truly villains: murder, theft and more...for the sheer joy of it, rather than a job.
That's why my newest villain, Mr. Maniacal, is gonna be around for a while I think! 
@Crius
Bassai, Canadian Kid, Alruna, Kahi
Mistress Rad, Culpeo, Ms. Demeanor, Celsius
If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. Let's go to work.
The clash of villainous personalities is a big problem, unless you are part of a group who were are themed /created together.
The villain group I am with on onion was starting to get this clash, our own personal objectives were becoming more important to our characters and it was clear that something "big" was going to happen soon.
Saddly thegroup became inactive before we could see 
This lack of "associates" does perhaps shed light on why so many villains "monologue" to the heroes...They need to do this so they get recognition and interaction..kinda sad really.
I can see many villains being traumatised if people just ignored them.
i find part of the issue is , and i think this is why i agree with Hatesmans bit about villians becoming "dark heros" is that heroes are reactive .. they have their everyday lives to lead , THEN once the crime starts they can jump into Hero mode ..with Villians one would expect them to be proactive which mean they are in Villian mode nearly all of the time , people trying for world domination , cant just " go on patrol " in the evenings .So your Psychopathic/ Sociopathic/ Megalomaniacle character need a lot more work RPing as they have to drive the whole event along , and again echoing hatesman they dont work the "normal " way in social situations , creating yet more need for proactive RP . They are , by their nature , outsides with a distinct world view.. again more RPing work to do .............. its not easy being bad you know ...
I totally agree with Hates and what has been said so far. My evil mastermind, Pistol, is not mentally unstable and similarly to her friends the Duchess Giovanna Scaldi and Vanessa DeVore, she does actually live a life of grandiose and killing people is favorably a pastime. Her motivation is to ultimately destroy the world, but one person at a time, why hurry, the slower the pain, the more her gain. So, she can be sociable with her peers, others who share her cause. She sees them as assets, tools to reaching her end game, and assets must be entertained, not abused. When she encounters a hero in social circumstances, she'll enjoy the chat, so long as the hero doesn't ruin her evening by bringing up topics of her evil business or something. So, I effectively play a truly evil villain who is capable of putting on a friendly mask, if it'll benefit her in the long run. The idea is also my remedy for "the bleed" which can be discomforting at times.
For the most part, I think has a fair bit to do with one's audience. This is a progression I've seen with RP over the years. I used to play some wicked baddies, who did the most nastiest deeds, not because they were unbalanced, but just because that's what they did. It could be argued the "good guys" are just as bad - witness the Crusades. People - victims, let's be plain - were a lot more willing to accept roleplay coming their way, even if it wasn't nice. They were more willing to accept their characters were not omnipotent, could be defeated, and that the person playing the utter creep was not ACTUALLY an utter creep.
That however seems to have changed. I see it happening more often that people get defenisve if a villain type attacks them; they're the type of people who have the inpenetrable fortresses which no one can ever destroy. Everything needs to be consented to, and heaven forbids their characters ever be maimed or injured permanently from a battle. Also, villains MUST be obvious. They must "mwahaha" and leer and somehow give away they are evil so the heroes can always make the "right decision" in order to defeat them - because of course heroes and good guys always do.
As a result, a villain becomes a character that is just a counterfoil for people to hate and beat up on. Small wonder people play their villains as anything but, just so they can actually have a few rp sessions of normal dialogue.
I think it's difficult to be evil in these mediums these days...there's too much perceived IC/OOC crossover. If you're playing an incredibly neutral character who gets along in some way with everyone, you're hardpressed to get any rp at all.
So, for my part, I do try and react how I should to a villain. I give opportunity for the baddies to do what they do best, and I harbour no ill will. I'd like to see a lot more going against the baddies on the server, but I'm aware in order to do that, us "good guys" really should let it be known "It's okay to be bad."
I completely agree with this.
I've worked around this problem with one char (Darvek) by giving him a Dr Jekell and Mr Hyde personality, where if he's not at home or in PD, he's a complete and utter monster, a killing machine with no pity, but while at home or in PD he will be a human being with emotions (he doesn't like to show them that often though).
With Spruk though, I have this problem. He's supposed to be sick and twisted, physically and mentally, a true evil villain but I rarely get to RP him as he should be, due to either not given the chance or not actually having the heart to.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
This thread has given me a precious idea for a project.
It all depends on what type of villian.
Sure if you play some sort of psycho whack job like the Joker or Red Skull esc Nazi Supremists then you are going to have a harder time hanging with others or finding a reason why your character would relax in a bar with people he/she hates.
On the other hand if you play the less colourful villian type like Bond villian then you've got a public front with which to play with millionair playboy, media mogul etc, but you also own a volcano lair with a death ray and hundreds of themed flunkies walking round. In which case your maintance of your public persona becomes a job to draw away suspiscion
After all the rich handsome Justin Blanks who was seen guzzling champagne at Pocket D can't possibly be the Hooded Viper who robbed a weapons research lab later that night with the aid of the Snake Squad.
I mean you don't literaly have to be a psycho whack job to be a succesful villian take The Rogues from DCs Flash comics, a bunch of ordinary joes who put on costumes and rob banks just because its easier than getting a real job.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If you're playing an incredibly neutral character who gets along in some way with everyone, you're hardpressed to get any rp at all.
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I don't agree.
My main villain, who has been seen freely chatting happily and freely with 'heroes' and 'villains' over the past year and a half, can do so with amazing ease. It's merely a case of keeping her social and professional lives seperate.
The true 'evil' type (like the previously mentioned Red Skull and his ilk) really don't have a place in CoX (in my opinion at least) BECAUSE they are doomed to failure, and who the hell wants to back a loser? Their behaviour pattern is pretty much pre-set with the player really only picking whatever the villain wants to dominate / decimate / devour / whatever, and since the plan to destroy the world is never going to work due to the inability to affect the game world in any real way these all powerful, evil lords are reduced to deeds more fitting with the game setting like the rest of us.
Personally, I prefer my 'villains' to be 'evil' because they have to be in order to survive, that they do the things that make then a criminal as a result of circumstances in their past. This said, I do enjoy meeting other villains who work differently, the kind who worm their way into the hearts and minds of their victims before the horrific truth is revealed.
im not sure that keeping villian and private life seperate deal with the issue , a villian with a secret ID , is a part time villian , or is more the mafia style crimelord .. they are lawbreaker not hard core totally commited evil baddies... i have a villian charchater that simple avoids the good evil question by not being the human / earth background .. his moral code is based on different rules .. he is a villian bercause thats how the CoX world judges him ..But trying to RP he comes up against this social interaction issue , other RPer dont "like" his views / actions and hes very hard to keep in a RP situatuion .. because even the RPed villians are played by people with our RL moral code hardwired in .. we end up feeling uncomfortable ...((hopefully because we are all well adjusted normal people ..and not pyscho's))
This is why we play our big baddies as over the top villians .. we can use the gimmikes and hooks to impart our evilness to others with out having to go into uncofortable details ...
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If you're playing an incredibly neutral character who gets along in some way with everyone, you're hardpressed to get any rp at all.
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Actually was I meant to say was UNLESS you are playing an incredibly neutral character willing to natter and chat with anyone...I'm aware it's incredibly easy to rp as long as you don't create any waves...but then not creating waves defeats the purpose of playing a villain to my mind.
I've read here the problems of playing a villain.
I myself don't play the evil villain because of the OP, it makes me feel icky after a bit.
Now, it's said that you can't RP unless you're at least a nice guy(ish).
So, how do those that want to play the evil, nasty bad guy do it?
Thoughts, suggestions, heralding from the good old days?
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
For me it's easy. It's just an act, that's all. It's not me, I don't do all those loathsome things in real life and I have no problems distancing the evil I am rping from the person I am. I think it's pretty safe to say that Anthony Hopkins is NOT a cannibal, but hey can play one. He puts on a shell, a mask, and then walks around in it. The thing is...that's getting harder to do. I'm not sure why, but people seem to think if you're playing an evil character then you MUST be a "off" person - again, that IC/OOC blur. But when I ever played an evil character, the instant I logged on I thought like that character completely - right up to the point I switched off the game. I guess for me with a background in dramatics it's not so difficult to do, but it's not a skill everyone has. To be honest I find playing "goodies" a LOT more difficult as they seem to be so two-dimensional. They're either supposed to be all cute and light and willing to save the day, because if they EVER have a day where they question what they're doing, someone comes along with the overused "emo" label. But I can't see heroes as having perfect days and perfect smiles all the time...and I absolutely can't play those types.
Different strokes I suppose.
1)I agree with Netherwitch. It's just an act, so I really don't feel it affecting me the slightest.
2)It IS possible to play at least try and affect the universe. Just look at the Requiem War. Okay, so the villain was NPC and I guess it does confirm that villains are destined to fail, but that doesn't mean that plots like this aren't worth it. I believe it could be entirely possible to come up with a threat against society/the world or whatnot, and (if people accept the threat!) get a very nice story with plot and subplots from it. Most heroes would of course react to the threat and try and stop it, but it could also draw in lots of other villains (especially mercs I guess) either hired to protect the madman/evil genius, villains crazy enough to join for fun, villains observing and/or taking advantage of the situation, villains who join the chaos simply to get a shot at some (or a specific hero) or even villains who see the threat as harmful to them as well and try to take out the madman/evil genius (maybe even cooperation with heroes). There are practically endless opportunities for plot-hooks that could involve practically anyone in the grand scheme or one of the countless sub-plots that would probably spawn. In the end, the grand scheme would have to be foiled, yes, but that doesn't have to mean absolute failure! The mad villain could achieve something else, like killing of his nemesis (NPC if no one has a hero they wanna lose), culling the hero population, or perhaps it was all a diversion created to help his REAL plan succeed. Again, COUNTLESS opportunities.
If we really want proper villain RP (with heroes as well) all we have to do is get together, plan and coordinate and do it! It'd probably takes a lot more effort than normally, but it certainly can't be said that there isn't any room for proper megalomaniacs in this game or "take over the world"-schemes, or just villain RP in general.
3)Also, the Hyenas are a good example that a it is NOT true that VILLAIN equals EVIL! Villain just means that you do what it takes. The Hyenas aren't really evil, but no less villains for that reason. Sure, some villains just aren't made for social situations but they can find other purposes and if not, well then roll another villain.
4)As for my biggest issues with villain RP, it would probably that it doesn't come as natural and I have a harder time finding people to RP with villain side.
By the way, I really hadn't given any of this any real thought, it just sorta popped. Comments?
while i do agree being a villian is a act it is hopefully a act further removed from our normal thoughts deeds and life styles , than being good and heroic .. it takes a bigger amount of acting to carry it off . and requires that acting from all in the RP event .
but i disagree with point 3). i think the Hyenas are evil , ok they may look like a group of merc 's carring out hunts for some one .. but what they hunt is not some food animal , its living ,thinking , feeling creature that are being hunted for profit , ... and its not ivory being sort to make art objects , but organs and stuff to be used in "strange " experiments which are clearly not for the greater good of the general population . They work from the classic evil corporation .. by choice .. they could do other things ... they kill people for cash ..
But as they are not seen as foaming at the mouth rabid mass murders they are more acceptable .... most plot lines will be of the hunt down thew winter lord GM's .. not harvest spleens fron 20 longbow female operatives ... we play the hyenas as rouges , mercs et al not serial killers .... one cos its more fun to play that way .. two its way to heavy to play it the other way and three it allows more "understood" more "comfortable" scope for RP ...
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If we really want proper villain RP (with heroes as well) all we have to do is get together, plan and coordinate and do it! It'd probably takes a lot more effort than normally, but it certainly can't be said that there isn't any room for proper megalomaniacs in this game or "take over the world"-schemes, or just villain RP in general.
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The big problem with 'take over the world' plots, (again this is just my opinion so take it at face value) is that due to them affecting the entire world, and as such it's the responsibility of any hero trying to stop said plot to warn the world. Once the warning has gone out about a global threat every civic minded hero would leap to help (great so far, mass participation while still leaving people with the option to leave it alone if they choose) So lets see a GM come up with a plot that can hold up against such an insanely vast collection of abilities. Now factor in all those villainous types that would also seek to stop said wold domination plot, if only to later try something similar them selves.
Now before people stay pointing out that the plot might have multiple ways to prevent near instant resolution, I'd like to point out that the plot HAS to fail as there's no way to enforce any form of domination at all over the game world and as such will have at least one way for the collective 'do-gooders' to vanquish the evil bad-guy.
Like I said, this is just my opinion, I'd love to see a plot like that actually running and working, but I just don't think it's realistically possible to run something on that scale in CoX, maybe in other places with actual mechanics for controlling the world (Kinda like the factions system for town ownership and control from Ultima Online waaaaay back when...) just not in a world where almost everything relies on players consenting to events even occuring, never mind unwelcome outcomes to IC situations.
We don't hunt people, we hunt creatures (albeit some are sentient, we have yet to kill any 'good' creatures) and we do it for money, now because we enjoy inflicting pain on others or killing for fun (well, I guess I don't know if some of us does, but that's beside the point), we kill for cash. It's just a job, like any other, and not evil 'per say'. At least not megalomaniac-ish evil.
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3)Also, the Hyenas are a good example that a it is NOT true that VILLAIN equals EVIL! Villain just means that you do what it takes. The Hyenas aren't really evil, but no less villains for that reason. Sure, some villains just aren't made for social situations but they can find other purposes and if not, well then roll another villain.
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This is the kind of Villain I prefer (and the type I personally play) and there's probably several readers of this who've met Cyder and could tell you she's a very pleasent, if flirty, young lady. What they couldn't tell you is that if you stand in her way over a business deal she'll not think twice about shooting you. This doesn't make her evil, it's a matter of survival.
In the dog eat dog world of the Isles showing signs of weakness can lead to trouble, so for those just trying to scratch out a living away from Arachnos there's really no choice, you have to get them before they get you.
The villain that kills to survive is no more evil than the hero that fought and killed during the Rikti war just to stay alive. (don't you just love moral grey areas)
I've made several attempts at your standard mainstream "evil" villain and ended up deleting them because I simply can't get a feel for them. I can't RP a character of mine if I can't, from an OOC perspective, relate to said character and feel empathy for them. Most of my characters embody certain elements of my own personality, and that makes it easier for me to RP them. This is why I play your standard mercenary, Iron Alligator.
Aside from being a 7' 650lbs bipedal grey lizard (don't ask :P), he's a fairly normal guy who likes his friends, his drink, and on a lesser note, his explosives, who is generally a nice bloke to be around. As a mercenary, unless his contract blatantly specifies he needs to kill a particular person, he tends to hold his punches (seeing as the average punch from him could cave in your skull) and generally avoids killing when it isn't completely nessecary.
Of course, in the Rogue Isles, there's those times where you just can't show any mercy if you want to survive. 'Gator survives. Nuff said.
Although, I have tried your average nutcase villain a few times and I really enjoyed it for a brief period, but when the RP started to reach complicated points regarding his personality, I ended up just dropping him for a bit and going to level OOCly.
I think it's completely true to say that you can't play a truly evil villain for too long without it taking its RL toll, although the longest time I played my proper villain was about 1-2 hours in PD, so I wouldn't quite know.
i think you just made my point we play the hyenas as people doing a job , not as evil killers , and the way we play them they are much nicer people than many of the hero's the stalker the streets killing the bad guys . THe hyensa kill to earn a living , not to promote evil ....However from a moral point of view what they do is evil .. taking a life for profit , harming others for selfbenifit ...if we anaylse what they are doing they are immoral if not truely evil ...but easy to RL .. heck the hyenas is a hunting club .....
I have a theory about Roleplaying Villains and I'd like to share it for discussion...
I think I've finally figured out what it is that makes good Villains so hard to play for extended periods of time. Forgive me if I'm slow in figuring this out, or if this has already been discussed.
Okay, so, in order to Roleplay well, you essentially have to do some Method Acting, infact that's what MMORP is, it's online Method Acting. Now it's known in the acting business that 'you cannot make three gestures of a given emotion without beginning to feel it yourself'. -- This is something that had never dawned on me before.
Therefore it's only common sense to say that a whole constantly evolving and unscripted scene of pure malevolence is going to make a good person begin to feel bad in themselves. Suddenly we've got a situation where we're using entertainment to make ourselves feel worse than when we started.
On a side note I think this could be the reason why Villain game content is so similar to Hero content (even if it was a subconcious decision.) Players still need to feel good about what they're doing, for any extended period of time, like when playing an MMO, they -- unless they're robots -- should generally be getting a good kick out of what they're doing. Thus, the villain has become a Dark Hero Protagonist in our game, they still tend to do good things even if they are for selfish ends. For example, you can't hurt citizens in Mayhem Missions, you are encouraged to help Arachnos control the Rogue Isles and the Power Transfer System is rescued in the first Strike Force.
So this may be why the most popular villain Archetype in RP are Assassins and Merecenaries as opposed to Megalomaniacs and Psychopaths. There's a level of assertion made on the players part -- be it conciously or subconciously -- to choose a character that makes them feel good to play. Playing a Psychopathic/Sociopathic/Megalomaniacle character (in my opinion the best type of villain) is too taxing and the psyche can't take much RP in this style before it begins to affect the player.
What is probably even worse is that truly evil Villains are recieved and interact negatively in social situations. This is the worst part for the human ego, as it means that while method acting a villain for the entertainment of another player, the scorn fired at their character may decend upon the player, creating an uncomfortable-in-large-doses situation where the player will begin to feel as socially unnacceptible as their character.
It's why, when I play as the Hatesman, I can never do it for too long, and he always seems to come off as a lesser version of his written form. The last time I really Role-Played the man who is pure Hate, I -- or rather 'we' -- ended up on a plateau of neutrality and indecision. With this sociopath just 'Meh-ing' through scenes as I was trying to avoid acted confrontation, that the Hatesman would have openly embraced. I think this personal revelation explains a lot about my own Role-Play habits and that of the community at large.
What do you think? Do you Agree, Disagree or have your own theory?
Thanks for reading my idea-dump.
P.S.
If anyone's too lazy to read the above, here's a recap;
Role Play = Method Acting = Character Empathy = Villains Make Us Teh Sad?
It takes Chaos to move the world to Action.