Hooray for insightful discussion!
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He's not too much of a drain on my emotions, though I will freely acknowledge that he is a drain on them, but only when I actually let his utterly sadistic side out.
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Oh, definately. It's not like all the time is the issue, it's only when Overdrive mode is active and the Villain you're playing is really going for it... For Hatesman that's supposed to happen all the time, he's supposed to be the "Avatar of Hate".
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But when I ever played an evil character, the instant I logged on I thought like that character completely - right up to the point I switched off the game. I guess for me with a background in dramatics it's not so difficult to do, but it's not a skill everyone has.
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Indeed, such deep character empathisation is the problem. So how do you do it when you have dramatics heritage?
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The big problem with 'take over the world' plots, (again this is just my opinion so take it at face value) is that due to them affecting the entire world, and as such it's the responsibility of any hero trying to stop said plot to warn the world. Once the warning has gone out about a global threat every civic minded hero would leap to help (great so far, mass participation while still leaving people with the option to leave it alone if they choose) So lets see a GM come up with a plot that can hold up against such an insanely vast collection of abilities. Now factor in all those villainous types that would also seek to stop said wold domination plot, if only to later try something similar them selves.
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Great point. It's practically impossible to run this type of plot when it's open to anyone. Even someone like my hero GhostSpy who's a relatively low-powered hero could foil nearly any plot in a bunker by simply walking through its walls... With even a handful of the cities heroes you may well have not only one person who can mess up a plot by being too good, but probably a whole team of them.
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again this is just my opinion so take it at face value
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Always do, there's no need to be apologetic about opinions, that's all we have in good conversation.
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We don't hunt people, we hunt creatures (albeit some are sentient, we have yet to kill any 'good' creatures) and we do it for money, now because we enjoy inflicting pain on others or killing for fun (well, I guess I don't know if some of us does, but that's beside the point), we kill for cash. It's just a job, like any other, and not evil 'per say'. At least not megalomaniac-ish evil.
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The Hyenas debate touches on something that hasn't been mentioned yet, which is quite important. Namely everyone has their own Moral Code, so for one person hunting an Animal is a part of life, for another person, hunting an Animal is the same as hunting a close member of family. In the same way this conflicts of many different Moral Codes can make it very difficult to portray evil in a way that will engage people. -- 'Course that of moral codes is a very deep and windy subject.
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Now, it's said that you can't RP unless you're at least a nice guy(ish).
So, how do those that want to play the evil, nasty bad guy do it?
Thoughts, suggestions, heralding from the good old days?
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It seems like the answer would be "in short bursts"... While this doesn't fit well with Massively Multiplayer Game style, it does fit the existing patterns and seems to be the case.
The question is, how do you play them for an extended period of time? Make them your main character? Is it actually possible to play Chaotic Evil as a main character? Apparently it is. So what's the answer?
It takes Chaos to move the world to Action.
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If we really want proper villain RP (with heroes as well) all we have to do is get together, plan and coordinate and do it! It'd probably takes a lot more effort than normally, but it certainly can't be said that there isn't any room for proper megalomaniacs in this game or "take over the world"-schemes, or just villain RP in general.
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The big problem with 'take over the world' plots, (again this is just my opinion so take it at face value) is that due to them affecting the entire world, and as such it's the responsibility of any hero trying to stop said plot to warn the world. Once the warning has gone out about a global threat every civic minded hero would leap to help (great so far, mass participation while still leaving people with the option to leave it alone if they choose) So lets see a GM come up with a plot that can hold up against such an insanely vast collection of abilities. Now factor in all those villainous types that would also seek to stop said wold domination plot, if only to later try something similar them selves.
Now before people stay pointing out that the plot might have multiple ways to prevent near instant resolution, I'd like to point out that the plot HAS to fail as there's no way to enforce any form of domination at all over the game world and as such will have at least one way for the collective 'do-gooders' to vanquish the evil bad-guy.
Like I said, this is just my opinion, I'd love to see a plot like that actually running and working, but I just don't think it's realistically possible to run something on that scale in CoX, maybe in other places with actual mechanics for controlling the world (Kinda like the factions system for town ownership and control from Ultima Online waaaaay back when...) just not in a world where almost everything relies on players consenting to events even occuring, never mind unwelcome outcomes to IC situations.
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For every problem, there is a solution. I mean, the Requiem War was possible, right? So others should be too. I'm not gonna bother with specifics (unless you want me too 
), my point was that if we want such a plot, it IS possible IMHO and it would be something everyone could react to if they wanted to, but it would of course required a lot of thought to avoid problems like those you mentioned.
Now, as far the whole "it has to fail", I do believe I covered that bit before. Yes, the apparent threat would have to be resolved as we obviously can't have anyone taking over/destroying the world. And yes, maybe that would leave the villain a loser (who could plot his return?) but then that's not the only option. The villain could still get away and he could succeed with a bunch of other stuff. Maybe the global domination was only a front used to distract the heroes while he actually worked on something else (we all know that only madmen try to destroy the world, this dude is probably smarter :P), or maybe his real goal was to lure heroes to him, to destroy relations between X and Y (person or organization) and so and and so forth. Just because the grand scheme fails, it doesn't necessarily bode DoooooM(tm) for the villain.
So, I still believe it possible and I can't think of a better way to give EVERYBODY a chance to interact, to partake in a plot. It would also most like let new people meet old people, or old people meet other old people they don't usually hang out with. New friends, new enemies.
Massive effort, but great reward, IMO.
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Hooray for insightful discussion!
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But when I ever played an evil character, the instant I logged on I thought like that character completely - right up to the point I switched off the game. I guess for me with a background in dramatics it's not so difficult to do, but it's not a skill everyone has.
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Indeed, such deep character empathisation is the problem. So how do you do it when you have dramatics heritage?
[/ QUOTE ] No, the point (if I got it right) is that there is no problem. He is able to enter character and exit again without being influenced.
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The big problem with 'take over the world' plots, (again this is just my opinion so take it at face value) is that due to them affecting the entire world, and as such it's the responsibility of any hero trying to stop said plot to warn the world. Once the warning has gone out about a global threat every civic minded hero would leap to help (great so far, mass participation while still leaving people with the option to leave it alone if they choose) So lets see a GM come up with a plot that can hold up against such an insanely vast collection of abilities. Now factor in all those villainous types that would also seek to stop said wold domination plot, if only to later try something similar them selves.
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Great point. It's practically impossible to run this type of plot when it's open to anyone. Even someone like my hero GhostSpy who's a relatively low-powered hero could foil nearly any plot in a bunker by simply walking through its walls... With even a handful of the cities heroes you may well have not only one person who can mess up a plot by being too good, but probably a whole team of them.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, the villain isn't likely to be alone, now is he? If he also amasses a big force of powerful villains (with the right motivation, not impossible) then the heroes wouldn't be able to just swoop in and get him. I realize that there is more to this, but haven't got time right now (sry)
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Now, it's said that you can't RP unless you're at least a nice guy(ish).
So, how do those that want to play the evil, nasty bad guy do it?
Thoughts, suggestions, heralding from the good old days?
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It seems like the answer would be "in short bursts"... While this doesn't fit well with Massively Multiplayer Game style, it does fit the existing patterns and seems to be the case.
The question is, how do you play them for an extended period of time? Make them your main character? Is it actually possible to play Chaotic Evil as a main character? Apparently it is. So what's the answer?
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Well, I, for one (and Netherwitch as well it seems) have no problem playing them for a longer period as there is no influence from playing evil. Maybe it's because I'm not a good roleplayer, I dunno, but I can (usually) easily RP without getting affected, even in the long run. It IS just a game and no worse than pretending real life. Just like Netherwitch said, Anthony Hopkins doesn't take any damage from playing Hannibal even though he did it a lot during the making of the movie, so why should we?
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Anthony Hopkins doesn't take any damage from playing Hannibal even though he did it a lot during the making of the movie, so why should we?
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because he follows a script, and we put ourselves in the mind of the villain 
sorry, just splitting hairs. carry on.
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because he follows a script, and we put ourselves in the mind of the villain
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Incorrect. That is EXACTLY what an actor must do. Put themselves into the minds of their characters.
If you've not seen a script before, it's very very...uninspiring. It's not a book, there are no explanations on your character's motivations, how they react to something, how they move, what they do and why they do it. It's just dialogue, and it is up to the ACTOR to get into the character, and pull it out. That is what makes a good actor.
Case in point...and by doing this I am aware I will blow my own cover, but I want to demonstrate something this is a SPOILER about Jean-Luc/Loup Garou.
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Once upon a time, I needed to write a piece from the perspective other than my own gender. It was absolutely impossible for me as I couldn't even dream of getting into that other gender's head. Couldn't do it, couldn't do it. So, I turned to this wonderful medium, online roleplay, and I created a character from the ground up, reasoned out everything about that character, really got into their heads. When I logged in, I WAS that gender. I had most people fooled. It worked brilliantly, because I was able to put that mask on and play it.
We've all seen women played by blokes, but I will readily say here I can count the men I have seen who play women WELL on the fingers of one hand. It's difficult to get the mannerisms of a woman down for most men. They never quite manage; either their women are too regal and aloof and cold because the female body language is missing or they "overcute" the character until she's some sort of bubble-gum chewing teen.
Suffice to say, I am not male. However, when I log in as Jean-Luc, I am definitely in what I call my "male headspace". I talk like a bloke, I react to other people like a bloke, I think like a bloke, both ic and ooc. I've had men ask me if I watched the footie last night. I've had them ask me computer questions (because of course women know bog all about computers!). Again, I don't think that's creepy, that's just a skill, and a good one as it earned me a paycheque for being able to finally write a believable male character.
And guys, you'd be surprised how many women are doing the same thing. It's just we don't brag about it. Like it or not, people tend to listen to instructions more readily if they don't know the person behind the screen possesses breasts. There's a fair few women who are "crossdressing" but they'll never admit it.
Again, it's a matter of being able to actually get into the head of a character, and do it fully to the point your own personality has no bearing on what you're doing. That however has its dangers; many a "hollywood marriage" falls apart because the actors on screen thought what they were acting and what they were feeling were the same things. And even a few actors who have played habitual bad guys have frightened themselves sometimes with allowing themselves to sink too deeply into a character's psyche. However, unlike actors we aren't under contract, we do not HAVE to play a character that makes us uncomfortable.
So I suppose in the end, there's two factors here - having the ability to step into a villain's skin, and also having the responsiblity and ability to know when to step OUT.
((And yes, even with cover blown...when I'm on as LG/Jean-Luc, I'm still in "bloke mode". Posting this won't change it for me heh. Hope no one is horribly uncomfortable now!)
It seem clear we have a number of varing factors that we put together when RP a "evil" villian
1. our personal view of what is true evil ..our personal moral mindset .. we all differ
2.how we feel that we role play .. ie wearing the char as a hat /suit or "being" that char mind melding ...
3.how we expect other to veiw our RP persentation ..this may be shaped by point 1 , and our RP skills and passing on emotions and telltale's
4. how far we are willing to bend the game enviroment to fit our RP .. i mean we could RP hero v villians in a simple chat room , no need for avatars at all ..
5. how much we consider the RP enviroment to be a REAL world . if we consider it total fantacy then there is no moral problem whiping out the whole hafling race to gain control of the one ring(TM) ....but if we view the RP world as a reflection of our own .. how do we feel about robbing banks and killing human being .. even NPC ones ?
As to taking over the world .. well i always reflect on te fact that only a madman would want the world and all its problems .. and then go off and play a nice vampire dask/dark brute .. i mean with the classic evening dress and opera cape i get into all the best parties ..
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because he follows a script, and we put ourselves in the mind of the villain
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Incorrect. That is EXACTLY what an actor must do. Put themselves into the minds of their characters.
If you've not seen a script before, it's very very...uninspiring. It's not a book, there are no explanations on your character's motivations, how they react to something, how they move, what they do and why they do it.
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true, but the actual actions of the character are already predefined by the plot writer. With RP, its mostly adlibed, so it goes a little bit further than a character-actor would, and taps that little dark side of our psyche that we don't like to go near.
And actor may have to ask himself "why" but we also have to ask "what"
As an actor myself, I find this particular line of debate very interesting. A number of times, on stage, I have been cast as the villain. This is difficult in one respect, in that thinking of yourself as a villain goes against our nature. And then, as a good actor (or writer, or roleplayer) you realise that no villain really thinks of themselves as a villain. They think what they are doing is okay, right, or for the best. Otherwise why would they do it, unless they have a mental condition?
Once for a play, I was cast as a pedophile. You can't imagine... well, you probably can... how hard it is to relate, to get into the head, of a character like that. But as Loup said, the mark of a good actor is the ability to dip in and out of a character, a persona, without bringing the character into themselves, or themselves into the character.
Someone asked how we do this. The answer would naturally be helpful to roleplayers, in that they could use the same techniques for the same effect. I think Loup would agree that it's actually pretty hard to explain. Once you realise that you can do it, it's almost like you forget how to do it. You just can, all of a sudden, and all the steps you take to get there become second nature.
If people want to try acting exercises though, they can range from taking five minutes to go through your characters routine in the morning, to doing a hotseat style exercise by asking the character a lot of questions, and quickly trying to come up with their answer without thinking about it too closely. At the end of the day though, everyone has their own way of doing things. Using my training as an actor helps me get in character for roleplaying, but the methods I use won't work for everyone.
In regards to which villains work best in social situations, I think personally that it's the ones you don't realise are villains. I have one character like that. They manipulate people, use them and abuse them for their own goals. But nobody realises that they're really doing it, and everyone seems to like them. That, in my mind, is evil. The continued abuse of trust, with full knowledge of what you're doing. But at the same time, they don't believe they're doing anything wrong. They think they're working towards a greater good. Do the ends justify the means? They think so.
Just my rambling two cents while I am, admittedly... drunk.
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Maybe it's because I'm not a good roleplayer, I dunno, but I can (usually) easily RP without getting affected, even in the long run. It IS just a game and no worse than pretending real life. Just like Netherwitch said, Anthony Hopkins doesn't take any damage from playing Hannibal even though he did it a lot during the making of the movie, so why should we?
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No that definately makes you a good Role-Player.
Although I'd agree with Big Lunk here, that Tony is following a script, and more importantly, he's probably breaking character every so often. I realise that doesn't t happen in plays, but in movies they're acting single scenes over and over again and then taking a break in between while cameras are re-setup or the location is changed. Anthony Hopkins following a script isn't the same as Role-Playing in an Online Game, BUT it certainly seems akin to it.
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Otherwise why would they do it, unless they have a mental condition?
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That may have been the sentence to hit on my problem with Hatesman. He's actually crazy, and doesn't justify his antics, he knows he's bad and is constantly scorned by his inner dialogue with his "Soul", "Mr. Hyde" or "The Void" as he calls it.
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Just my rambling two cents while I am, admittedly... drunk.
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Then your insight is probably the most scientifically accurate Mister Drunk Actor.
So,
As far as I can tell so far, you need three things to Role-Play a Villain well.
1. The Actors complicated emotional disconnection technique whereby you can become the character but not be affected by the long term effects of their emotions.
2. A character that is endearing(?) to you and as a bonus to the community...
3. l33t skillz
Of these three, I have only one and that's entirely up for debate, can you guess which it is? No don't I'll cry.
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Hope no one is horribly uncomfortable now!
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I'm not uncomfortable. I just can't help picturing you like this at the moment.
<_<
>_>
...What?
It takes Chaos to move the world to Action.
I'd have to insist again (this time from a writer's perspective) that there is very little a script tells an actor about the character. A scriptwriter hardly ever gets a chance to meet with an actor and say "this is how I want the character to be". Hence there are a lot of [censored] off scriptwriters in the world as the end product never looks like what they originally planned. That's up to the directors and the actors, who interpret the script and even change it to suit themselves as they see fit. That's why a script is mere dialogue, never actually direction. It's sort of like a religious text in that respect; loads of different interpretations and who knows if anyone actually got it right...
As far as Hatesman goes - this is why I wanted the chance to allow Hatesman to really really go for it in our little spar-off. That was awesomesauce of the first degree. Truly, a villain worth fighting and a character I really want to follow up on. I did have quite a few people chasing that one up to track him down, but I know you need a break from him now and again.
What I really dig about the Terra Liberation Front is, on the surface, what they're doing is something I'd applaud myself personally - the people ruling themselves and protecting the planet. It's just these guys make the Earth Firsters look like a bunch of hippies. These are eco-terrorists from Hades. On any other level, Jean-Luc might even respect them, but it's their METHODS he has issue with. Get two strongheaded people who both believe they're right and...well, end result was the fight. I'd like to play that one up again at some point but I admit I've sort of lost interest in levelling through missions and I tend to come on solely for rp.
Honestly, I feel it's more frustrating for villains when there's no pursuit. It was rather difficult for me to even find anyone interested enough to save Loup the night the fight was to take place. There was even less interest in trying to find and hunt down whomever it was who had nearly killed him. I'm not sure why that is, but it's not too encouraging for villain types to be villainous when people will just shrug their shoulders and go back to trying to pick up chicks in Pocket D...but for my part I am looking forward to more of Hatesman, as utterly twisted and wrong as he is.
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because he follows a script, and we put ourselves in the mind of the villain
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Incorrect. That is EXACTLY what an actor must do. Put themselves into the minds of their characters.
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An actor never ruin the fun of other actors by playing his or her role.
A roleplayer can ruin others' fun when playing his or her role.
Not because there is a technical difference between an actor and a roleplayer (both play a role) but because actors are all led by a plot, in the same direction, when roleplayers are, at best, sharing a common storyline and, at worst, are interpreting their roles independantly one from the other if not acting in opposite directions with conflicting views on how the story must unfold.
So, Hopkins probably never ruined any other actor fun and desire to play a role by interpreting his. Because they all came for the same storyline (and they actually even know what is going to happen).
But roleplayers not only don't know what is going to happen but are not even aware from the start if any other player is going to influence, interfere, enhance or totally ruin their fun.
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Once for a play, I was cast as a pedophile.
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yes, but was all that child porn "Research" REALLY necessary? 
I don't ascribe to the "I need a roleplayer to give me references in triplicate before I roleplay with them to make sure they don't try to harm my character" approach.
People are fine to interact with a villain as long as a villain isn't...well...villainous. It seems that there are some people out there who always want their characters to walk out of a situation totally unscathed, unchanged, and without any sort of repercussions. But for me, the unpredictable and the potentially confrontational is part of rp. Rp becomes stale if it's all just sitting around a club. Dare to be challenged, dare to talk a risk, and dare to interact and be challenged by a villain - and potentially even lose a fight. I can pretty much figure out within five minutes whether someone is an utter tool or whether they're a roleplayer who knows what they're doing. And if they know what they're doing, I run with it as far as I can, even if it is at my own character's disadvantage. In the Superhero world, if they could bring back Aunt May, I doubt anyone will stay down for long unless we really don't our characters to come back.
For me, a story does what it does, and I don't particularly care. We may be getting abit hung up in the metaphors here between acting and rp - I don't use a script when I'm roleplaying, for example, and an audience doesn't know how a movie is going to end (well, unless you're me, all stories sound the same these days and I already seem to know what the end result is). I'm aware I'm the minority in that. But that's why I started up the RP Roundtable for people who just wanted to be thrown into the deep end to either swim...or drown. I welcome that sort of thing. I'm down with it.
Now this isn't where people take offence and say "I'm not like that!" - we've all seen this sort of thing and I think for the most part, we can agree there are people out there who don't like their worlds to be interfered with. At which point playing a villain around them is rather pointless. They take it as a personal affront that ANYONE they don't know is trying to rp with them though, and it may not be villain-biased. So if I were a villain character and someone told me to sod off rather nastily in tells, I would just chalk it up to someone who doesn't want their glass menagerie broken down, not that there's something wrong with me as a player, and thus I don't feel badly about it. However, when it happens a LOT, yes, I also grow weary of playing the odd one out, and I find myself shelving characters instead.
However...at the same time, as a roleplayer, I try not to write off a name I don't know as a Tool-Until-Proven-Otherwise...and I think we're all guilty of that one. Maybe we need to loosen up a bit and not assume one is guilty till proven innocent of toolness.
So like, you're... a girl?
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People are fine to interact with a villain as long as a villain isn't...well...villainous. It seems that there are some people out there who always want their characters to walk out of a situation totally unscathed, unchanged, and without any sort of repercussions. But for me, the unpredictable and the potentially confrontational is part of rp. Rp becomes stale if it's all just sitting around a club. Dare to be challenged, dare to talk a risk, and dare to interact and be challenged by a villain - and potentially even lose a fight.
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That pretty much sums it up for me.
RP is so much more than to just hang around bars to pick up lovers and whine about your problems (or boast about your lack there off).
For me it's all about character developement, good or bad, and to tell an enjoyable story.
And I don't mean enjoyable as in happy-happy-joy-joy-everybody-wins either. One of my own most memorable experiences during my many years as a roleplayer, involved the death of my longtime character. As long as it's not just a random death caused by a bad dice roll (yes, P&P RP) but rather an essential part of the story, it might be the hight of satisfaction really.
I mean what would Jesus be if he fought the Romans in Gethsemane, knocked them all down, dusted himself off and walked away?
Action flick with Steven Seagal as Jesus.
All my characters are eligible for "true" death, meaning deletion (except GoodGuy because you just can't kill Superman 
) IF the story requires it and no god-modding is involved.
Now back on track.
My favourite villain is the James Bond type villain as described in a previous post. The one you just don't suspect. It's like the quote (I can't remember who said it though) "The Devils greatest trick was to convince mankind that he didn't exist."
That kind of villain is probably the easiest one to play since s/he is portrayed as a nice and lovable person.
But the superhero genre wouldn't survive without the megalomaniac "Fools! I'll destroy them all! Muahahahaha!" kind of villain.
A MMORPG is sadly enough not very forgiving in playing that kind of character. If we had a place where one could act out those conversations without risk of griefing, it would be great. Bit since Pocket D is inhabited by both tools and passers by that will just jump on the poor sod trying to act it out, not many will risk it. It would just spoil the fun.
Personaly I'd LOVE to play that kind of villain, but it would require creating a character that had to stay level 1.
There's no way in HELL a megalomaniac would run errands for a mercenary like Burk or to be just another minion in Lord Recluse's army!
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I mean what would Jesus be if he fought the Romans in Gethsemane, knocked them all down, dusted himself off and walked away?
Action flick with Steven Seagal as Jesus.
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Hey, that would rock!
Although Jesus would have to be a retired legionary, and Buddhist.
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Now this isn't where people take offence and say "I'm not like that!" - we've all seen this sort of thing and I think for the most part, we can agree there are people out there who don't like their worlds to be interfered with. At which point playing a villain around them is rather pointless. They take it as a personal affront that ANYONE they don't know is trying to rp with them though, and it may not be villain-biased. So if I were a villain character and someone told me to sod off rather nastily in tells, I would just chalk it up to someone who doesn't want their glass menagerie broken down.
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Well, that's the problem of not choosing your gaming partners in MMOGs.
And sometimes, the result (avoiding players you don't know) can come not from a pedantic behaviour but from bad previous experiences.
So, after a time, you're fed up and decide to completely avoid people you don't know, simply because you ceased to trust unknown players.
I, for example, stopped going to Pocket D because I was tired of the almost constant string of villains provocations.
Yes, Pious, it's true! I imagine I derailled a few brains. But the first to go up to Jean-Luc and say "a/s/l" will definitely get a bust in the chops.
i do think Netherwitch has touched on part of the problem .. we are all , to a greater or lesser extent protective of our creations .. we made our shinny heros / shady villians , and we have a image of them fixed in our minds ..
thus when a RP situation tries to forces us beyond that innitial image we react against it ,
One, because we dont want that image shattered after all the effort we put into making it ,
Two , that good old human fear of the unknown ,
and Three the feeling of lose of ownership as someone else's plot take over your creation .
this is all normal human behaviour ..
The issue , when playing the "evil" villian , is that the change to our image will take us down the path to the darker aspects of the villians nature ... the one we dont feel happy about .. we move from the comic book villian , to the reality of what a villian would really do , just how nasty will the ego manic sociopathic mutant hating super powered madman go to further his aims ?
And of course the counter side .. will the golden haired paragon of goodness save the world by killing 20 people if there is no other way to do it ?
Plots forcing us to change our image of our characters will always be difficult .. but they are the most fun .. as long as we can realise its not a attack on our character its evolution in the RP world.
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And of course the counter side .. will the golden haired paragon of goodness save the world by killing 20 people if there is no other way to do it ?
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That's a good question but I believe it happens far less often hero-side than when playing a villain. Also, the ultimate purpose is still to help/brighter/more valuating, despite the dire choice.
But there also comes the gaming style. Being a hero or a villain doesn't suppose the same thing depending which of the "eras" you have in mind.
And this, alone, adds another layer of possible conflict between players (not necessarily heroes vs villains, each side can have its own conflicts about gaming styles)
Right...thus do I say: bring it. Hatesman and Loup are probably going to go head to head at some point again. The Villain Rehab project will attract attention, both wanted, and unwanted. The S.O.A.R group also could do with having some baddies facing off. I'm sure there are other players in the RP Roundtable willing to mix it with baddies.
If you want to stretch that "evil muscle" now and again (quiet in the back) then you're more than welcome to find anyone in the RP Roundtable list to do so, or myself, and I'll find someone to point you toward.
It's all good, as they say.
hmm...
First off...hello all, been a while I know but hi!
A good villain knows how to play on what is expected of him and do a complete u-turn on those expectations, a ranting, raving mad scientist is considered more harmless than a drugs dealer primarily because one's goals will never get off the ground while the drug dealer is already there, inserted into the social fabric.
That's what I liked about pulling the sudden U-turn with Edward back when he was Dr Mechano. Every hero suspected him to be this harmless old man who was insane and ranting but suddenly he was shipping drugs to their city and his threat level just jumped tenfold in the eyes of most heroes.
I assume this was because he wasn't trying to take over the world but providing a new addictive 'high' and a supposed cure for aging rolled into one. This drugs market would appeal to both the disenfranchised youngsters always looking for the next big fix and also the middled aged or elderly who wanted to recapture their youth. It wasn't just a drug for the young, this drug would hit every single demographic young, middle aged and old, rich and poor, thus making it a major threat if it got a foothold in the city.
What was said earlier about 'being prepared to lose' is very apt, I had actually planned on losing during this plotline for the outset. I had always played Mechano as someone who was there to be on the recieving end of the heroes witt and thus being forced to lose against heroes was no big deal.
Mechano, as a villain, was insane. Now I don't mean the kind that sees butchering people as fun, I mean straight, downright, completely insane. More akin to that homeless person standing on the street yelling at traffic, you know, the kind everybody think is harmless but really doesn't want to take that risk in forcing to move along because the guy might just pull an uzi out of his worn overcoat and start firing because suddenly everybody is one of 'them'. He was and oddity since he was ranting and raving one minute, then fine the next.
He had thoughts above his station in life, often calling himself a super-villain (of key use in his phrase "super-villains have class and manners, super-thugs do not and I, my dear, am a super-villain")
A villain doesn't have to be a murdering thug or a psychopath, a villain can still call themselves a super-villain merely as a title they think that they have earned. To mechano not everyone was a super-villain unless they displayed the key qualities of:
1) Manners to women: you may be evil but that doesn't mean you should be abusive to the fairer sex, that's just shows you haven't got any taste or even a modicum of class.
2) Witty comebacks: There are times when you will face a heroes witt, if possible throw a witty oneliner back at them or use the simple technique of confusion to completely derail their train of thought and thus remove the smug look on their face (the line Mechano used "well you sir, are a small lawn mower" led to the confusion of many a hero).
3) Plans: All good villains have plans, these may be from making a note the night before and leaving 'I need to buy milk this morning' stuck on your fridge to 'I want to take over the world' all good villains need to plan atleast once a day in order to keep the mind sharp. These plans don't have to work but they good exercise for the mind.
4) Henchmen: No good super-villain has no henchmen, even if you don't, introduce a loyal friend as, for example, "this is Rob, he sets things on fire and he's one of my henchmen" thus making it seem like you've got a few stashed away. Though make sure to confer with your friend first otherwise the arguement that follows will surely undo all the work you've done to look respectable and villainous all at once.
Though these four key points are what I set out for Mechanos beliefs and thus not conversley my own in what makes a good villain.
To be honest playing a good villain is incredibly hard. Though for me Mechano was substantially easier than playing his hero version, sword of redemption, because Sword is a Christian, a belief system which I do not have in real life but also one which is at odds with the CoH universe.
Having faced the goddess of Mu (though in a weak state) while helping someone out for their patron arc (can't remember which one) Edward cannot catagorically say that there is no other gods, he's seen one, he's fought one! So he says rather than belief in his god is the only one, he says that to worship his God and no other is enough. He follows the teachings as best he can but a move from the isles to Paragon has left him with Crossing guard duty due to the change in the basic rules.
Though his crossing guard duty has now finished.
The reason I found Mechano easy to play was because I suffer from insomnia and thusfore am often sleep deprived in the extreme (72 hours awake does hell for your head), I know that mental state, how it scatters thoughts completely, how you often say what your thinking rather than keeping it inside your head, how even the simplist of questions can somehow seem to require a long and complicated answer. I've done it so often that I can simply slip into that state and that's how I played him. So in truth he wasn't evil, just pretty damn unhinged and sleep deprived (as those that use to be in EVIL will know, or more likely his housemate, Big game, he never seemed to sleep at all).
Playing him as a straight hero and a christian I find immerseably harder because those are two things I'm not, I can be quite insane when sleep deprived, my thoughts go meandering down unexpected paths, I say odd things to people at random intervals (like yelling Kittencake while at work, though thankfully no customers were in the shop and the girl I was working with just burst out laughing since she knows what I'm like when in that state).
So strangely, perhaps I'm odd, I find playing a hero harder than a villain.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
We're really getting to something important here... Excellent points.
Mechano, what you said about your Insomnia and how that lets you empathise with your characters unhinged nature... It's easier for you to play him, because he is an extension of yourself and what you go through. Okay... it looks like I'm calling you crazy, but you know what I'm saying.
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For me it's all about character developement, good or bad, and to tell an enjoyable story.
And I don't mean enjoyable as in happy-happy-joy-joy-everybody-wins either. One of my own most memorable experiences during my many years as a roleplayer, involved the death of my longtime character. As long as it's not just a random death caused by a bad dice roll (yes, P&P RP) but rather an essential part of the story, it might be the hight of satisfaction really.
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Maybe good role-play will need to include this element that characters should be eligible for change. Your Straight-Talking Vigilante might have to cool his tone because s/he is talking to someone who can kill her or him... Your megalomaniac, if caught will be sent to jail.
(That'd certainly help put difficult characters on the back-burner for a while.)
In the primordial soup of Role-Play... in Dungeons and Dragons for example, good characters lived because they wanted to live, they were more alive because they knew they could die...
Hmm. Maybe the MMO Respawn system is somewhat to blame also? Characters have an invulnerability aspect that makes them act differently...
If Pocket D was a bar with "Violence Turn On", the situation would be a heck of a lot more different, it'd be more real. With "Violence Turn Off" in most cases, Super-Powered beings are reduced to low level, menial interactions. Hatesman certainly see's Pocket D as a pointless endeavour because he can't kill anyone if they diss him. Y'know? Heh heh, that sounds really bad, but it's how I as a player have to play him. That's a big problem for me. Even if he could kill them though, they'd just Respawn.
So is an answer to make things more realistic? (I certainly think so.)
It takes Chaos to move the world to Action.
Well, I remember the plot to rescue Amber from the Hand of Andros. Coile had set some hardcore rules, meaning that those who were part of it risking permanent harm to their characters (if they had agreed to it, that is). It made it a LOT more exciting, thrilling, when lives were at stake. And it actually ending with Crimson Archer losing an eye, Redsight dying, Dante dying (for a while :P), Lost losing an arm and generally left those involved in need of rest and recuperation. While not all plots need be THAT extreme, then it certainly makes it interesting, realistic and FUN to have consequences to fear. Also makes for more realistic behavior as you have to be careful all the time.
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I'd like to point out that the plot HAS to fail as there's no way to enforce any form of domination at all over the game world and as such will have at least one way for the collective 'do-gooders' to vanquish the evil bad-guy.
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I agree with this completely. I used to tell people, you want to be a good villain, you have to be prepared to lose.
Sure, you might get the upper hand, only to be thwarted at the last moment, but at the end of the day, good wins, that's how it works.
Of course this doesn't sit too well with people who always want to be the bestest evil villain EVER, and rule the worlds!