Curiosity - don't kill me!

I've been thinking about something for a while, and at one point did ask around a bit. But I wasn't able to come up with very much. So, naturally, I'm taking it to the boards (which I do check, despite my abyssmally low post count...) in the hopes that someone will be able to answer my question.

To the best of my knowledge, and I'm very willing to be corrected on this, the best known and/or most active Hero Supergroups are The Silent Tempest and The Unity Vigil. Possibly The Militia, I'm not sure if they've reformed in character yet, but that's just down to my own ignorance. If they're back - then them too!

I know, or have at least spoken with, the leaders and members of those three supergroups.

Coile, who OOC is very levelheaded and good to talk to, and IC I don't know as well as I'd like, but seems to struggle with very complex issues, personal relationships and still try to be a hero.

Zortel, who I had a great chat with the other day about what the line between homage and plagerism is, and IC is the hero of one of my own heroes.

And Brit, who is very dedicated to the community and is running the Supremacy plot alongside Shadow Phoenix. Which I've just gotten Headliner involved with. Er, the plot, not Shadow Phoenix. Not that he isn't a great guy, it's just... nevermind.

These three people and their supergroups are all great, and I have characters that would easily fit into any one of them. Although all slightly different, they all do follow the theme of traditional, upstanding capes (although the Tempest members do have a shadier reputation) who are out to catch the bad guys and save the day.

My question (yes, I've gotten there finally) is, are there any "alternative" heroic groups out there? By that I mean groups with more of an 'Outsiders' feel, and a bit of a Punisher ethos. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any heroic supergroups that operate on the line or outside of the law, using deadly force and believing that criminals are just better off dead.

Can anyone enlighten me on this? Have I missed out a very well known and respected supergroup, revealing my own ignorance and lack of experience on heroside roleplay? (It's been mostly villains for me.)

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I kept spelling Tempest with an extra T in there, which changed the meaning slightly...

Officially? No, because they'd get busted just as quickly as a villian in Paragon if they made themselves known. Unofficially? Yes, there's a few groups out there who believe in protecting the innocent at all costs, and certainly a fair few characters who believe in doing so, but again, they're QUIET about it.

The reason you don't see many of them around is because the more blatant ones fly into the face of believability and take no repercussions for their actions. This usually gives them a pretty bad name with the roleplaying community. However, there are pockets of people who do feel that "By Any Means Necessary" is just fine and while they may not go out killing every hero they come across, they're certainly not going to be gentle.

My own character, Loup Garou is very much of this school. He's not a bloodthirsty sociopathic vigilante who goes into Pocket D making a bunch of commentary about how Villians are the scum of the earth, etc etc, but he is certainly rather known to beat the stuffing out of whomever deserves it rather than having a long, drawn out discussion over good and evil. There are repercussions for that though - this is why he left the Supergroup he was in because he couldn't agree with the way situations were being handled (to his mind, nowhere seriously enough). Loup is who he is because his mind functions on a completely different level, more like a wolf than a human, and as a result there are things which make sense to him, and things which don't. It's not a matter of sitting him down and showing him the error of his ways...he often says "You wouldn't force a cat to be a vegetarian". He's coming up a storyline to help villians who wish to reform and come over to Paragon, and he's already butting heads with people about it because to his mind, there are some things you just can't or shouldn't try to change about people. To him, the end justifies the means, but only because he lacks the human ability to overcomplicate things and call it "conscience".

However, he's not the typical "sneering in a corner polishing his weaponry" type so maybe it's not so very obvious that he does what he does or is what he is...but to my mind that's rather the point; an obvious display of vigilante/anti-hero will quickly get someone labelled a bit of a prat.

So yes, Loup operates on the line. He doesn't make a case of it but people who know him know that's what he does. At the moment, his supergroup was more out wanting to give him his own base, but I wouldn't be adverse to people being part of his lone-wolf sort of pack...however again, I'd be picky about who would be in, as it's not something I want to see being abused by people who would just be better off playing villians.

Thanks for the reply Loup. I don't want you to misunderstand me though, I'm not talking about sociopaths or villains. I have villains, and I enjoy roleplaying them. I also have heroes of the more Super/Spiderman vein, in that they don't believe the ends will always justify the means.

Naturally, being over the top and obvious about the fact that often, frequently, sometimes, occassionally or however often it happens your character is willing to step across that line is a fast way to make sure no one wants to roleplay with you. It just wouldn't make sense. I know that if my two main heroes, Headliner and Afterlight, heard a 'hero' proclaiming they were happy to kill people, and did so frequently, then they'd investigate and act accordingly. They'd never just accept it, despite both having checkered pasts themselves.

I suppose The Punisher wasn't the best example, since he's known for what he does and in the Marvel universe is one of the worlds most wanted criminals because of it. But he was the first example that came to mind, so I apologise if it was misleading.

The reason I asked is that almost all the powersets, particularly ones like Broadsword, Claws, Fire Blast etc. have the potential to be lethal, but are often treated as not being so. So I was considering making a character who sometimes (not necessarily all the time) would be willing to cross that line. I was curious to see if there were others out there who had thought the same or similair things.

Thanks for the feedback, and I'm happy for more.

do you ever ask a 5 word question without more than 5 words, synth?

RPing an "above the law" character could ever be done well, or very very badly.
If done well, there's all the hiding of the underhanded actions, working loopholes, RPing through occasional tribunals and court hearings to justify their actions, all the time skating close to loosing their licence
Done badly, you got people who openly break the law, brag about it, yet still have no consequence.

It would probably be quite a fitting SG for Lunk, seeing he can occasionally be a bit heavy handed in his methods.
but after the whole EVIL fiasco, im a little hesitant to start an SG on my own.

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do you ever ask a 5 word question without more than 5 words, synth?

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I do my best not to Lunk. I like words.

That's basically what I'm interested in, something that's done well. Not "Yeah, I killed a criminal today." But for the option to be there for the very worst of criminals, that our characters believe could never be reformed.

If there isn't an existing Supergroup like this, I would be open to the idea of making a new one, but I'm aware that I can't run a group by myself. And only if there was sufficent interest.

As I said, I don't really think anything's out there at the moment, probably because it degenerated into people getting a bit too kill happy or otherwise was a bit of a bugger to keep going. To be honest it's something I'd be interested in as well, but it would have to be very above board from outward appearances; actually, it'd be rather cool if some members outwardly looked like something other than the sunglasses-and-leather type you'd expect to be a sort of vigilante type. It would be necessity have to be rather small, and would also by necessity have to have very capable roleplayers within it who were willing to deal with the very serious repercussions if they were ever caught.

So, by all means, if you can run with it, do! And look Loup up when he's around.

I am pretty tempted now, though bad supergroup experiences in the past have me playing it cautious. This group, as you said, should be fairly small, so recruitment wouldn't be a big issue. But at the same time, more than two or three would be nice.

If anyone is interested in this idea, can they send a tell to me @Synth in game? Or send me a PM through these forums. Thanks.

As other's have said, I don't think there are any groups that spring to mind right away. There was always an undertone of this in the Fletched Alliance. Certainly my character and group leader (soon to be ex) Akkarin would "tread the line" but this would generaly be done very quietly and mostly when plot's took him to the rogue islands. Some of the other earlier group members were similar, but it's something the newer members are often unaware of for a while.

There was the Cirque de la Lune a while back of course. In the time that I was a member, it was accepted that your character had to be willing to kill, but only when completely neccesary, and I think that's a big point behind getting this right. That yes, they might kill people, but it's because they belive it's neccesary.

I'm a big fan of this concept, it sits very well with my main Fridan. He joined Vanguard because of their "do what it takes to get the job done" mentality. If this goes ahead, feel free to contact me @Fridan, it sounds very interesting.

Zergling duties beckon, so shortly:

Militia has IC reformed. They have brand spanking new website and forum at http://www.themilitia.org.uk/.

Silent Tempest has also 'reformed'. It was long and tasking process and led to a leaner group, but with stronger and more uniform ethical stance. Charter is linked to in joining guidelines. IC is IC as ever, but shadier acts will no longer be tolerated to the extent they once were.

This is a bit of a difficult one mainly due to being able to play such a group credibly. Part of the problem is some people will quite happily play their so called heroes in a manner that would make most villains seem all pink and fluffy, yet fail to acknowledge that there will be any consequences.

Thing is the FBSA are not going to just hand out a hero license and just forget about it, they are going to periodically review the decision, and no doubt be alerted at the first incidence of a possible conduct breach. It seems reasonable to me that Freedom Corps would be used to monitor, investigate, and if need be deal with any license abusers.

To run a sort of grey area group like this, it would need to be done intelligently, and mindful that if you step too far over the line, or far too often, somebody is going to be obligated to take you down. Concept like this would work well for a group of obscure non-licensed heroes, although some sort of fudge will possibly need to applied when dealing with certain ingame contacts.

They would need some sort of 'Untouchable' organisation, when brought in because they 'went too far' word would come in from higher up to let them go.

cue annoyed Sergent/Captain slamming doors.

But that does mean people will start wondering about them, hunting them trying to find out what this shadowy group is.

Well that idea I had for the sapient zombie hero group would probly fall into that. I don't know any though

I would certainly be interested in this SG, if it ever got off the ground. It's certainly a better fit for one or two of my characters than the 'above board' hero groups.

I'm entering exam-period at University in the next couple of weeks, so there'd be some evenings where I'd be unavailable, until after the 12th, when I'm freeeeeeeee.

@Maximillian

w00t w00t, Red Cell! (For the non-militia members, just ignore it :P)

I would be very interested in having this project should it turn real. Officially a hero like all the others, being good and all that, but every now and then he'd creep into his stealth suit/disguise/plastic-bag-over-head and go after the ones who hide behind the system. Would be easily to RP if the killings were kept secret and only discussed between the initiated. Don't know if that's what you had in mind, but regardless, I'm interested.

@Mr. Erth or PM here on the boards.

Being one of the original creators of Red Cell, Brother Pious being the eventual driving force, I'd love to see an Outsiders type group. I have thought long and hard of starting an SG of heroes who would "take the shot" if killing was the only way to save a life.

I might suggest this sort of thing as an underground, "Illuminati" style of group. A "non-SG", if you like. Normal heroes, with standard licenses who believe that sometimes the ends do justify the means, but that they do it in secret.

Running normal missions, being regular heroes, maybe even adored by the public, with no connection to each other, but sometimes meeting together to debate whether a certain criminal has gone too far, or request assistance from the other clandestine vigilantes in dealing with a particular problem.

I think it's possible to do, but hard to do well. I wish you luck!

^^ Sure sounds cool though

Hmmmm a Pseudo Star Chamber?

I like Crimson's idea a lot, it would certainly fit with my own current characters more easily. It also makes it harder to remain undisovered, but gives them even more reason to be careful. Hmmm...

Yeah it DOES make the most sense.....

Cheers!

Basically, it's a simple way to still be able to play the game as a hero. No need to fudge contacts, missions, etc, because that is what you are, but it also opens up the possibility of some pretty intense RP situations when the "chamber" comes together to decide the fate of a particular crimeboss, or villain. After all, once it's decided, there's no going back...

Providing this was played out with actions having consequences in the game world, and there being the possibility for being discovered if the characters involved aren't careful enough in who they talk to, or what they do, then I can see it offering some prime opportunities for those characters who do walk a fine line.

I did project that idea to Synth of being sort of a "fraternal order" sort of thing without having to create a supergroup. It's possible it could tie into the RP Round table idea I put forward as well for people who may wish to be involved as yes, it has to have repercussions, yes, people do have to play it seriously, and yes, we will have to deal with what happens to our characters if they ever get caught. Being prepared for the possibility of losing your character to the Zig or even being banished to the Isles is a very real possibility. I'm going to keep chatting with Synth on this, and maybe we can put something together.

I thought Synth was really looking for a group that sorta bends the rules rather than outright takes the law into their own hands to dispense permanent justice.

Im thinking more like heroes who dangle goons off the edge of buildings to scare them into getting info, torch gang bosses loot rather than hand it over to the PPD, or tip off troll gangs about C-Dyne shipments so they do the dirty work for them. (...er not that I ever did that )

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Im thinking more like heroes who dangle goons off the edge of buildings to scare them into getting info, torch gang bosses loot rather than hand it over to the PPD, or tip off troll gangs about C-Dyne shipments so they do the dirty work for them. (...er not that I ever did that

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Don't most heroes already do the afore mentioned?

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Im thinking more like heroes who dangle goons off the edge of buildings to scare them into getting info, torch gang bosses loot rather than hand it over to the PPD, or tip off troll gangs about C-Dyne shipments so they do the dirty work for them. (...er not that I ever did that

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Don't most heroes already do the afore mentioned?

[/ QUOTE ]Only one...

"Why'd you dangle that guy off the edge of a building and threaten to kill all of his family?"
"I'm Batman"

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