While I do alternate from enemy to enemy with each attack (if I can easily) I'm not sure if the Dark Armor options of "Oppressive Gloom" and "Cloak of Fear" count as a taunt Aura. I don't know if tanking is just keeping the enemies attacking only you or if it counts if you keep 70% of the mob mezzed with fear and stun.
Aren't taunts usually a waste of time with Brutes anyway? Just jumping into the mob first and taking the alpha of doom is usually enough to keep their attention for a bit and get my fury all the way up. I've never taken a Taunt with any of my brutes and from most of the brute guides on the forum they're kind of downplayed as being useful.
:shrug:
my 2 cents.
-jared
I see the brutes as scrappers, not the tanks but can if needed. I don't take taunt/taunt aura on brutes, but I always take the PBAoE attack for when it's needed. My main villains is a SS/Elec brute and can keep the aggro fine with just Foot Stomp, well, unless there's a trigger happy fire corrupter, but that's just because they do more damage (in the right circumstances).
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
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Hi,
On all my Resistance shield brutes I always go for the taunt aura (invincible on the INV one, Mud Pots on the stoner and lightning fields on my Electric ones). On my EA I don't have any taunt aura due to the nature of his powerset.
I think it's important to check the build of the brute, wether he/she's build for damage or survival (or both) be4 U make a decission.
I personally only use taunt on my Stoner, cause he's a regular tank... he's a better tank than my INV tanker!
So imho a brute can tank under the right conditions.
Mebbe it's because I'm an old school tanker??? who'll tell:P
Brutes:
Evil Jimmy - SM/SA - lvl50
Mad Dave - SS/INV - lvl50
Fury Green - SS/El - lvl50
Mad Fire Green - FM/EA - lvl50
Franky Green - EM/El - lvl35
I dont think taunt is a waste power (it needs no slotting and has no end cost) for a Brute. At least not for the fire corruptor standing behind him...
Personally, not having Taunt OR taunt aura, I find very disturbing - and generally not team-worthy.
Oh and I would count Oppressive Gloom and Cloak of Fear as pretty much equal to a taunt aura.
well a Tank w/out Taunt or a taunt arua is not a tank and some ppl dont take them for some unknown reason
i can see both sides for a brute. but by lvl 30 they should have taunt outright and a Taunt aura if they have one avilable
otherwise they let the team down same with Tanks tbh
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Well, it all depends on the brute's build if he is suited for tanking or just a damage dealer. An EM/EA brute would start from a very weak base regarding tanking while a fire/fire brute can hardly avoid taking a large share of the aggro. As an average I think 50% of overall aggro is acceptable indeed.
However, since the brute is the one who can take it I think every brute should at least care about the aggro others get. As said before, with some builds you keep the rest of the team almost completely aggro-free with only little effort, but even with single-target-oriented builds one should always keep watch over the squishies, so that they don't get mezzed and pasted by dangerous mobs.
Now, two brutes who can't hold a huge majority of aggro have either very un-tanky builds or are very bad players... or, most likely, both.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
I grab 10 foes, Soul Drain on 10 foes is an "Oh Momma!" and in all that Dark Regen is bound to hit and so would Dark Consume. With no res slots but everything put into attacks herd 10 foes defeat 10 foes of even level is doable, with res slots raise the difficulty. In teams you get extra shields and everything!
Now consider you dont have as much survivability as a Tanker therefore you cant have as long as a fight duration in a way...But! you dont need to have a fight duration as long as a Tankersd because you have kicked everyones butts!
Now you could come to me and talk about alpha taking. I rarely do alpha taking as there doesnt need to be one.
Anyway more than 10 at a time is a waste because your attacks dont do more than that. Taking on 10 at once shouldnt see many people complaining and its good fury.
Kill or be killed is how I see Brutes.
I actually have taunt on a brute 20ish, I cant live without it, love keeping people alive doing GMs at Halloween event with it, and yes it did keep people alive but mostly I cut out alpha taking with it and keep the fury up from foes hitting me and imo very importantly save the Domie who does much greater aggro control!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
You might be surprised to hear that MMs are better equiped as tanks than Brute, well when they're in bodyguard mode
anyway. The problem is brutes aren't designed to hold aggro so in that team situation you mentioned you should minimise the AoE attacks and focus on single targets and debuffing/healing until the mob are worn down then finish off with your AoEs.
I use Lightning Field on my dark/elec (lvl 33) along with spamming Soul Drain and Dark Consumption (no Taunt). That usually keeps quite a few mobs interested in me.
On the other hand, when I play my fire/dark corr (lvl 46) I would never rely on a brute to keep all the aggro. I often do the herding myself actually (unless there's a good brute on the team) and it's usually fairly safe with all your debuffs.
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
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You might be surprised to hear that MMs are better equiped as tanks than Brute, well when they're in bodyguard mode
anyway. The problem is brutes aren't designed to hold aggro so in that team situation you mentioned you should minimise the AoE attacks and focus on single targets and debuffing/healing until the mob are worn down then finish off with your AoEs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do MMs hold the aggro? You've no taunt to keep them occupied or stop them siccing the Corrupter or Dominator spamming his AOEs.
MMs are decent Alpha Absorbers via bodyguard or Pet Rushes alright but once Damage based aggro starts flying about how do you hold it?
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You might be surprised to hear that MMs are better equiped as tanks than Brute, well when they're in bodyguard mode
anyway. The problem is brutes aren't designed to hold aggro so in that team situation you mentioned you should minimise the AoE attacks and focus on single targets and debuffing/healing until the mob are worn down then finish off with your AoEs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do MMs hold the aggro? You've no taunt to keep them occupied or stop them siccing the Corrupter or Dominator spamming his AOEs.
MMs are decent Alpha Absorbers via bodyguard or Pet Rushes alright but once Damage based aggro starts flying about how do you hold it?
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Two Words... Presence Pool?
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You might be surprised to hear that MMs are better equiped as tanks than Brute, well when they're in bodyguard mode
anyway. The problem is brutes aren't designed to hold aggro so in that team situation you mentioned you should minimise the AoE attacks and focus on single targets and debuffing/healing until the mob are worn down then finish off with your AoEs.
[/ QUOTE ]
How do MMs hold the aggro? You've no taunt to keep them occupied or stop them siccing the Corrupter or Dominator spamming his AOEs.
MMs are decent Alpha Absorbers via bodyguard or Pet Rushes alright but once Damage based aggro starts flying about how do you hold it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Two Words... Presence Pool?
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Thought of that alright, but I'd argue that if its in the Pool Powers then its not intended to be a primary function of that AT. It just means you could shoe-horn the ability into them (in the same way you could make an Ice/Ice Tank medi-bot with Aid Other since their HP means its does a decent heal).
They do make unsurpassed Alpha Absorbers but when you need to drag a Mob off the Dominator to save him it can be very difficult (from personal experience last night 
)
Maybe you can split "Tanking" into two parts? Alpha Absorbing and Taunt-absorbing aggro from specific threats after that, and that the heroes Tank function can be split over the two Villain ATs in different ways?
I think thats an excellent way of conceptualizing "Tank" functions, Carnifax.
And yes, MM seem very good at "Alpha takers" - even if their minions die its no debt.
But from my experience they cant do the "consolidation" phase of tanking very well - if at all. That really needs a brute.
Im seeing more and more brutes with no taunt and no taunt aura around. And quite frankly it unnerves me.
my brute has a minimal taunt ability, basically the only things that can keep the aggro on her is a multiple target immob from the patron pool and Soul Drain from my primary. Energy Aura's one weakness is it's lack of taunt aura, but I wouldn't say that means I MUST take taunt.
Defiant 50's
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@Miss Chief
I rarely need to taunt anything with Reg Rag, his Blazing aura is almost too good at holding aggro. In fact, these days, I sometimes even have to drop a burn patch to get rid of some aggro.
UNION @Flitz 50, Lead Hose 50, Red Rag 50
DEFIANT Rose Bloodthorn 34
VIGILANCE Captain Caledonia 20 - Yeah, I made toons on the French server coz we only had 4 back then (might have to transfer/recreate them on one of the US servers)
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Well, MMs have no inbuilt taunt or something like that, but once the alpha strike problem is solved it gives MMs enough time to apply their debuffs (with the appropriate secondary set) and reduce incoming damage. This does not change the fact that others might get aggro, but goes a long way towards making sure they survive it.
And if the team is not that bad enemies should not live long enough to cause more damage than the team can mitigate.
That said I have seen many occaisions where a capable MM and a brute fit for tanking have with ease eliminated any aggro whatsoever for a full team. Add some corruptors to the equation and aggro is a thing the opponents should be more worried about. 
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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That said I have seen many occaisions where a capable MM and a brute fit for tanking have with ease eliminated any aggro whatsoever for a full team. Add some corruptors to the equation and aggro is a thing the opponents should be more worried about.
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, the correct approach should be:
1. MM's pets take the alpha
2. dominator drops an AoE hold
3. brutes SMASH! None of this tanking nonsense!
UNION @Flitz 50, Lead Hose 50, Red Rag 50
DEFIANT Rose Bloodthorn 34
VIGILANCE Captain Caledonia 20 - Yeah, I made toons on the French server coz we only had 4 back then (might have to transfer/recreate them on one of the US servers)
..and many more!
[ QUOTE ]
You might be surprised to hear that MMs are better equiped as tanks than Brute, well when they're in bodyguard mode
anyway. The problem is brutes aren't designed to hold aggro so in that team situation you mentioned you should minimise the AoE attacks and focus on single targets and debuffing/healing until the mob are worn down then finish off with your AoEs.
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I worked out that the overall HP of MMs in bodyguard mode isnt as high as it is with Brutes, Brutes can get Tanker level of Max HP with the help of a cold corrupter and with extra shielding have extra damage sustainability making them better than MMs imo unless you shield pets perhaps but anyway MMs have no taunt control, just mostly soft control, which isnt as good aggro control, but for the taking of alphas part I think MMs do alright, better in sharing it with Brutes. There are exceptions versus exceptions to what I say so I dont completely disagree with you but tankers are taunt controllers to me so when you do taunt control you become tankerlike.
The general pic of the game to me is Stalkers bugger off ahead, select the teams most hated targets and then just as the MM and Brutes run in and get aggro they AS, Stalkers fight for a bit as much as needed then goto next group but there are so many ways to play, but I like Brutes and MMs steamrolling together!
Comparing power pool Taunts compared to the secondary taunts are like comparing a mickey mouse watch with a Rolex.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Brutes are a very versatile AT and I don't think you should team with a Brute and automatically expect them to be able to tank. And I don't think that just looking at the sets chosen can be an indicator as to whether the Brute can Tank.
Take two of my Brutes - SS/EA and Fire/Fire. From face value you would probably say that the Fire/Fire would be the better tank of the two; you would be wrong. I've build my Fire/Fire as a weird kind of single target fire scrapper (mostly for solo play admittedly) with only one AoE, no taunt and no blazing aura. My SS/EA gets his aggro from a nicely slotted taunt and of course Footstomp. I can easily tank for teams of around 4 players without outside buffs (nor having to use Overload). Bigger teams usually bring extra buffs and I find that I cope fine even if I do have to rely on Overload more if I really want to fill the role of a Tank. Anyway, the main reason I take Taunt is because generating Fury in a large team just using an attack chain can be a very difficult thing at times, its much easy just to try and grab the aggro.
My gf, for example, plays her EM/EA brute more like a Stalker. Sneaking around with Energy Cloak on taking down the tougher targets with her massive single target damage. Nothing wrong with that play style, performs a perfectly satisfactory role in a team, but its probably not what you would expect from a Brute.
I guess my point is that you shouldn't try to pigeon hole Brutes. You may get a pseudo tank, scrapper, stalker or just plain Brute. I guess the best thing to do is ask.
I am currently levelling a fire/fire brute and a fire/ice tank (both late 20s) - and all i can say is VERY different power selects and slottin.
As yet - my brute has yet to get taunt, whilst my tank took it mid teens.
Expecting a brute to hold aggro? Used to think so, but now ..... no. I hav a taunt-aura; but think of it more as a fury generating-aura. I see my role as more kill as many and as quickly as possible rather than alpha-taking or holding aggro.
Can I tank as a brute? Certainly, but would need corruptor support ie one who buffs rather than blasts eg in ur example; then for u to stop using ur AoE attacks, concentrate on buffing and single target attacks. But hey the game is abt having fun; so leaving team is completely justifyable.
Guess the problem then boils down to us old timer CoHers tryin to play CoV like CoH, which u can, but most people dont. This, in my personal experience has been a hard lesson to learn.
Brutes as earlier mentioned, are a VERY versatile AT. Problem only arises when theres miscommunication abt wot ur "job" is meant to be. Its also something COHers probably suffer more form, as the ATs in heroes are a little more specific in their roles.
Oh heres another option for alpha taking - Carrior Creepers.
Effective. No debt. Cant be kiled. Only problem - only on 1 set, and available only at L28.
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That said I have seen many occaisions where a capable MM and a brute fit for tanking have with ease eliminated any aggro whatsoever for a full team. Add some corruptors to the equation and aggro is a thing the opponents should be more worried about.
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In fact, the correct approach should be:
1. MM's pets take the alpha
2. dominator drops an AoE hold
3. brutes SMASH! None of this tanking nonsense!
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, if you want to pull this off on a regular basis you would need multiple dominators (or have to be very slow at killing). Now, with the fear cone of /dark corruptors or MMs or mind/ dominators... well, that's a different story.
And of course a brute is expected to SMASH! But as you want to SMASH! as many opponents as fast as possible tanking is usually a fortunate side-effect, at least with AoE brutes.
It's just that 'traditional' tanking is not the most effective way to do things in CoV. The most successful and fun tactics I have seen (and applied) involve a lot of - as Shannon put it - 'steamrolling', be it with a brute/kinetic combination, a brute/MM constellation or just multiple corruptors etc.
Heroes are the masters of 'defensive formations' while villains are usually more suited for the 'Chaaaaarge!' approach.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
With my DA brute I take the Alpha, dark regen then hold as much agro as I can without actively seeking it. After an alpha strike I only need 4 attacks to wipe most of a group, excluding bosses.
My /FA has a pet Thermal and will be picking up taunt again soon. I like to group foes (well mostly to cage them and burn them or LR them) and with high resists due to the extra sheilds and the magic of healing flames my survivability is nice and high.I want every thing attacking me for group where I dont have lightning rod as I need the Fury for my damage.
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They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
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Heh, nice, often I find myself in the same situation as your DA brute with my Elec/Elec, Dark/Dark and Fire/Fire brutes. I go in, do my thing and the enemies' attention is instantly turned on me even if I don't really try.
My EM/Invul brute on the other hand has to actively seek aggro as most enemies are either dead or hardly aware of his presence. Well, that's what Taunt is for, I guess.
I think my SS/EA will be somewhere in between once he is grown up. It's nice to see the differences in playstyle and tools.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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That said I have seen many occaisions where a capable MM and a brute fit for tanking have with ease eliminated any aggro whatsoever for a full team. Add some corruptors to the equation and aggro is a thing the opponents should be more worried about.
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact, the correct approach should be:
1. MM's pets take the alpha
2. dominator drops an AoE hold
3. brutes SMASH! None of this tanking nonsense!
[/ QUOTE ]
Theres no reason why not to start with AOE hold since on successful hold the domis wont get alpha. With fear effect like terrify they will however.
I wonder what people consider acceptable levels of "tanking" by a brute?
Now, I know Brutes dont literally "Tank" - they dont have the resources to stand their soaking up everything the enemy can throw.
However, they do have sheilds, a stack of hit points, and mez resistance - and are a lot more resilient than any other CoV archetype.
My personal veiw is a Brute needs to make sure a) the mezzer's are trying to mez him and b) a goodly proportion of the enemy are attacking him.
Not the lions share like with tanks, but even so. For instance, in a hypothetical 5 man (of all 5 AT's) team, I would expect the Brute to take about 50% of the aggro. A "goodly proportion" but not the whole whack.
I emphasise this is what I expect of a Brute as a MINIMUM. I would normally play my brute getting around 75% in such a circumstance.
I ask because I recently played my AoE Fire/Dark corruptor (around level 38 iirc) in a team of 7 with two brutes. The brutes had no taunt, no taunt aura, and no AoE attacks, and got piddling aggro - can you guess where it went? Thats right, on a certain corruptor who was actually doing most of the work with a shed load of AoE attacks / effects.
I quit that team.
By that level, I expect a brute to have AT LEAST either a taunt or taunt aura. To be honest, if you don't you are becoming perillously close to a liability.
I may have made an exception if these brutes where cycling attacks from enemy to enemy but thats a very tricky and usually ineffective way of getting aggro.
WHat are peoples thoughts?