Well Fire & Ice can't deal with Psi damage either - and Stone is hardly overflowing with Psi protection.
In fact, unless you're a Dark Defender, Dark Scrapper or Warshade, you don't have any real Psi protection outside of Epic Pools or IOs
The amount of Psi damage done by Rikti is pretty low and only at Range. Energy damage is a lot more common, but again, it's largely at range (Some energy damage in their Swords IIRC).
To be perfectly honest, if you can't cope with Tanking now, you probably will be screwed come I10, but the rest of us will be quite happy to carry on the way we are - I don't think anyone who has played with any of my tanks could accuse me of being a "3rd rate scrapper" under any circumstances.
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To be perfectly honest, if you can't cope with Tanking now, you probably will be screwed come I10, but the rest of us will be quite happy to carry on the way we are - I don't think anyone who has played with any of my tanks could accuse me of being a "3rd rate scrapper" under any circumstances.
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So what would you call a defender (healer) that couldnt heal? Or a troller that wasn`t controlling.
Every time you team and face CoT (for example) and don`t taunt em cauae you know you won`t be able to stand what theyre dishing out, then you`re denying the team the purpose for which you exist. It`s not your fault. After all, you`re more beneficial alive than dead. But, all you can really do against the CoT or other en/ele groups. is just do do damage, which any scrapper can do better.
So, i`m sorry but ultimately, unless our opponent is S/L we simply cannot function as intended and other ATs can.
this is slightly off the point. The real concern is that i10 will exacerbate the problem, and we will definately be the lower AT when it comes to battling the invasion, and thats on top of our current concerns.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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In fact, unless you're a Dark Defender, Dark Scrapper or Warshade, you don't have any real Psi protection outside of Epic Pools or IOs
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These are not relevent Ats bcause it isnt their job to take huge amounts of damage in the first place.
that`s a Tankers job. And if we cant take these amounts then we cant tank.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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So what would you call a defender (healer) that couldnt heal?
[/ QUOTE ]FF, Sonic or TA 
Also, my ice tank, with 0 psi protection whatsoever, has no problem tanking rikti, they really don't do all that much psi damage.
What about Healing Arrow?
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So, i`m sorry but ultimately, unless our opponent is S/L we simply cannot function as intended and other ATs can.
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Of course you can - just not without effort. If you're in a team there's usually at least one person who can buff you. There are inspirations, pool powers, IOs, temp powers, accolades; all of which can help you mitigate damage that your primary can't deal with.
When it comes down to it, you're a Tank - don't be a Statesman and only taunt or engage those mobs that you think you can probably handle without any trouble. It's your job to take on the toughest mobs as well as the weak, so that the squishier members of your team don't have to and if you don't think you can handle it, just close your eyes when you jump in to take the alpha.
If you're running away from fights (metaphorically or literally) because you've *only* got ~30% RES to a damage type then you're really doing both yourself and your team a disservice.
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If you're running away from fights (metaphorically or literally) because you've *only* got ~30% RES to a damage type
[/ QUOTE ]AND the highest HP in the team, something which many people seem to forget. Even without any def/res/regen, the tank is still the most durable AT.
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So, i`m sorry but ultimately, unless our opponent is S/L we simply cannot function as intended and other ATs can.
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Of course you can - just not without effort. If you're in a team there's usually at least one person who can buff you. There are inspirations, pool powers, IOs, temp powers, accolades; all of which can help you mitigate damage that your primary can't deal with.
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Of course we can. And do. But here`s my point.
I have an Invul/ energy melee Tanker and I have an Energy Melee/ Invul Brute.
Naturarily my Tankers invul is the primary which means it`s stronger than my brutes Invul. And Visa versa with the energy melee.
Let`s put them both up, in 6+ team against the CoT.
Neither types can (unbuffed) hold out against the firepower of the CoT BUT because my Brutes primary is energy melee, he fares much better. After all;
A) he hits much harder so the baddies fall before they can do too much damage
B) His job isnt necessarily aggro management anyway so he`s not going to take as many hits in the first place. (Tankers have gauntlet. Brutes don`t.)
Ok. So what that boils down to is that the brute, though less able to take hits from CoT, still does his job.
The Tanker simply cant. Not to a battle turning way anyway.
UNLESS, as you say, he`s buffed.
But buffs work on everyone! So, bearing in mind we dont hit as hard as other ATs, the team would theorectically be better served to put a scrapper or even a blaster in there and buff them! After all they have full use of their primary and have Aoe.
I`m not saying we cant function in those circumstances. I`m not saying we cant contribute. I`m saying that because our primary is decreased, other ATs can do our job better than we can. Almost any AT will be more effective than we are.
Now, put us against S/L and we are "the big man in the team" and full contributers.
This thread relates to the fact that an entire issue is going to be devoted to a type that will put us in the catagory I just described. So the percentage of times we fight and are fully effective will diminish severely.
How many other ATs are mitigated in such a way?
As I mentioned earily, can you imagine if scrappers had their damage decreased against an ever widening inventory of villians?
I see this as much the same thing.
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If you're running away from fights (metaphorically or literally) because you've *only* got ~30% RES to a damage type then you're really doing both yourself and your team a disservice.
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Just to set the record straight, I rarely , if ever , run. But, i am concious that, against non S/L types, however well I do, other fully functioning ATs, can do better than I can because they`re primary is not handicapped and mine is.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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AND the highest HP in the team, something which many people seem to forget. Even without any def/res/regen, the tank is still the most durable AT.
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The maths there dont stack. The reason we have more hp is because, by nature, we attract a large portion of the aggro, so get hit with more damage points.
But, in a large team, against the various damage types we`re vulnerable there is so much damage coming our way that the extra points are eaten up in a very short space of time.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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But now... well, lets face it, unless I face S/L I cant tank.
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Edited to reflect your reality. My reality is that I don't have a major problem tanking against non-S/L. I have to rely on my pool powers more than I did back in the day, I've had to build more intelligently and more biased towards my primary (no reasonably damaging attack chain for me) and I have to rely on my team mates more (that's what they're there for, isn't it?) but I can still tank effectively (in my opinion) for full teams and have fun while doing it. I have no fears for Issue 10 - if I can tank the Shadow Shards task forces I can sure as heck tank Rikti.
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Aggro has to go somewhere. This basic fact seems to elude much of CoX players who think that if they avoid using AoE and only attack minions the aggro seems to magically evaporate into the ether.
If not the tank, then who?
When I do I10, I am gonna tank it, just like i tank carnie and malta with a team. Whether you see it or not teams provide support, they will be helping you to help them and visa versa. The tank is often considered to be the big man but its not, everyone on the team are equals and they all matter. Like spit will i be sharing a team with another tanker or not going in first cos thats just not the way. The policeband SFG missions have Dark Ring Mistresses and Sappers in, if ya cant solo it on invincible then for me ya tank or methods need tweaking, if ya can solo it then in teams against Carnie or Malta you just need to get to see and pick ya main targets first and at blindspots ya need a method to pull and pick them out.
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if I can tank the Shadow Shards task forces I can sure as heck tank Rikti.
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Rikti arent exactly a high risk enemy in my book.
@Lionsbane, if your really worried get weave but my survivability comes from picking main threat and getting all offensive on it. Scrappers are defeat it before it defeats you, controllers are control it so it dont matter and my tank mixes the both instead of stand there and hope everything end draining or psi misses. Shivans are heavy on the energy in my opinion and so fall in the herd fast for max invincible then defeat fast category.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Aggro has to go somewhere. This basic fact seems to elude much of CoX players who think that if they avoid using AoE and only attack minions the aggro seems to magically evaporate into the ether.
If not the tank, then who?
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My controller.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I`m not saying we cant function in those circumstances. I`m not saying we cant contribute. I`m saying that because our primary is decreased, other ATs can do our job better than we can. Almost any AT will be more effective than we are.
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Rubbish.
Take any "balanced" 8 person team fighting +2 or +3 mobs. Buff the tank and send them into a mob to take the alpha and control the aggro.
Once that mob is dead, buff the blaster and send them into the next mob to take the alpha and control the aggro. I promise you that the second mob will be chaos, if not a disaster.
Buffs are mostly additive or percentage based, meaning that players with higher existing values benefit more than those with lower values. Toons with high Defence benefit more from defence buffs than toons without any notable defence - same with damage, accuracy, resistance, regen, recovery, etc.
My Ice Tank hates Rulaaru, Nemesis, Knives - anything with high accuracy and defence debuffs - but you just have to learn to deal with it. I have to be more careful, but it's still more than possible to tank them in a capable team.
Tanking (and I wish I didn't have to keep saying this) is not about taking damage. Tanking is about taking aggro. The perfect counter-example of this are Granite-only Stone tanks who are repeatedly the last one standing against huge mobs because they're virtually unkillable, but they simply can't control the aggro so all their teammates die. It doesn't matter how much damage you can or can't take, the important thing is that you can hold the attention of the mobs so that the rest of your team can do their jobs without having to worry about getting one-shotted by something that got loose.
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i can happily say that neither my ice nor invuln tanks have a problem with rikti.
yes, invuln tanks res is biased to s/l... but the rikti melee attacks do a lot of s/l.. and really, you should be building your invuln tank more towards def than res these days anyway imo
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When it comes down to it, you're a Tank - don't be a Statesman and only taunt or engage those mobs that you think you can probably handle without any trouble. It's your job to take on the toughest mobs as well as the weak, so that the squishier members of your team don't have to and if you don't think you can handle it, just close your eyes when you jump in to take the alpha.
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all so true.. i'm also impressed that someone else remembers that interview.. thought it was just me.
when it comes down to it though, a tank is only as good as their team. with a good defender/troller you can take on anything.. but you should be willing to jump in to the gates of hell itself spamming taunt to protect your team, even if you know it means certain death.
In my opinion, its not the psi damage that make rikti worrysome, its the mez effects that come with it. And with Unyielding comes one of the games best status resists.
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Come on, let's face it Rikti aren't exactly the toughest opponent for any decently built tank, and with decent support they're cannon fodder. We wouldn't exactly be virtually begging the comms officer to open a portal if they were that tough would we.
And it really never occurred to me not to tank CoT. Sure, they're tougher than a lot of other mobs but that's just a challenge and the number I can cope with just depends on what support I have from the rest of the team.
Now tanking the Mother Mayhem mission, that another issue. Do that the normal way and it's faceplant city guaranteed 
Gah.. Yes Mother Mayhem is the only AV I would be very reluctant to tank.
But even then with Dull Pain and some decent support an Inv tanker could 'tank' her well enough.
Not forgetting a tray full of Lucks
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In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
An inv tank should be able to go toe-to-toe with most AVs with a little support, Mother Mayhem takes a little more thought though and in my experience you definitely need the whole team pulling together to avoid multiple deaths. I really don't like playing my tank in the outdoor MM mish, but the hospital one has such a great setting I'll happily do it any time.
I reckon you can still tank anything in the right team and almost anything can be soloed.
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Tanking (and I wish I didn't have to keep saying this) is not about taking damage. Tanking is about taking aggro. The perfect counter-example of this are Granite-only Stone tanks who are repeatedly the last one standing against huge mobs because they're virtually unkillable, but they simply can't control the aggro so all their teammates die. It doesn't matter how much damage you can or can't take, the important thing is that you can hold the attention of the mobs so that the rest of your team can do their jobs without having to worry about getting one-shotted by something that got loose.
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And there we go again with the 'what is tanking' story. Granite cant keep agro, fire is squisy and inv is dull and boring, ice tanker pwnz all.
For the record a sonic def can cap fire and inv kinda on every element, making them non less then a Granite. Its the whole story of finger pointing. My Granite hits nearly 2 years lvl50, i know very well what i am capable of and if i am able to keep agro. And clearly if 1 team member cant handle a lost minion, its more his playstyle then my 'agro management'.
And thus, issue 10 for inv and fire tankers.. get a sonic and behold. (this is very well proven and tested to high degree +3 AV tanking). So yeah a sonic is needed, but isnt a rad or kin also needed for STF?
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Tanking (and I wish I didn't have to keep saying this) is not about taking damage. Tanking is about taking aggro. The perfect counter-example of this are Granite-only Stone tanks who are repeatedly the last one standing against huge mobs because they're virtually unkillable, but they simply can't control the aggro so all their teammates die. It doesn't matter how much damage you can or can't take, the important thing is that you can hold the attention of the mobs so that the rest of your team can do their jobs without having to worry about getting one-shotted by something that got loose.
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And there we go again with the 'what is tanking' story. Granite cant keep agro, fire is squisy and inv is dull and boring, ice tanker pwnz all.
For the record a sonic def can cap fire and inv kinda on every element, making them non less then a Granite. Its the whole story of finger pointing. My Granite hits nearly 2 years lvl50, i know very well what i am capable of and if i am able to keep agro. And clearly if 1 team member cant handle a lost minion, its more his playstyle then my 'agro management'.
And thus, issue 10 for inv and fire tankers.. get a sonic and behold. (this is very well proven and tested to high degree +3 AV tanking). So yeah a sonic is needed, but isnt a rad or kin also needed for STF?
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The answer lies somewhere in between. The tank primaries are different to provide variety. Variety is a fun factor. There is no 'best' overall set.
It looks like you are thinking of Invulnerability as a resistance set. It fares much better as a defence set. Think of the S/L resistance as a nice little bonus ( that makes the Rikti's nastiest attacks, the big swords, only tickle ) and play to Invs main strength, Invincibility.
My inv tank is my toughest, against pretty much anything that doesn't have defence debuffs.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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It looks like you are thinking of Invulnerability as a resistance set.
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Totally. TI and UY are just there as backup to the Def from jumping into a great huge mob. There's nothing better than watching a large group whiffling away trying to hit me.
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An invul tank not able to tank against anything that's not purely S/L damage?
Heck, this weekend my invul brute had to tank Mu and PPD Peacebringers (energy damage), PPD Psi Officers (well, as the name says...), Carnies (psi and dark plus endurance drain), CoT (any damage type), Longbow (massive -res) and a truckload of psi/dark/energy/etc. Heroes/AVs, all with a little bit of support from corruptors. If I had only known that I was not supposed to be able to do that...
But seriously, although tanking S/L mobs is definitely easier than tanking a psi-damage Hero and his friends I am far from being outmatched or unable to tank in those cases. And I can only speculate on how much more a well-built tank with defender-support could have taken.
Somebody who thinks a tanker should be able to tank almost anything without support seems to have some problem with his ego. I can only speak for myself, but one 'strong man' enabling 'easy mode' for the whole 8-man-team without any need for support is not my type of game. Perhaps it's easier for me as huge fan of CoV to accept (and enjoy) that "the team is the tank", meaning that hit points, armours, buffs, debuffs, control and heals all work towards the survivability of the designated aggro-taker (if one is available) and the team as a whole. And in my eyes an invul tank with resistance, defence and a hp-self-buff is a good start to begin with be it with or without Rikti roaming the land.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
I`m relating this to Invulnerable Tankers, but i suspect it could apply right across the AT.
To be effective we need to take aggro. It`s our job and it`s why we have gauntlet.
Back in the day, properly slotted we (past 32) were nigh on (by coincidence) invulnerable, except to end drainers, like carnies or sappers and of course, our big weakness, psionics.
So, if we were up against carnies and the like, we found we had to take a secondary role. After all, if we aggroed everything in sight, but that everything could wipe us as easily as anyone else... well we would be obliterated pretty fast, right?
We had to play a different game against these guys. We could manage, but we couldnt Tank.
Yet, without our ability to take the damage, what were we left with? Without our ability to take damage we were third rate scrappers at best, and there were plenty of first rate scrappers out there.
But none of that mattered.
Because MOST of the time, agaionst MOST foes, we were the big man on the team. So, to be up against those occasional foes that could damage us was almost ... a form of balance.
But now... well, lets face it, unless you face S/L you cant tank. What we do when we face all sorts of energy or elemental foes is hope for the best, that we can survive, because our resists are that delapidated. We become, in (imho) a too large proportion of the game, the totally useless space wasters, where virtually any other AT is superior too us, because we cant take the attacks. And, as I say , if we cant take the attacks (which our primary set is designed to do purely) then virtually every other AT, whos primary AND secondary sets CAN function to design will perform better than us.
But still, we still face, on balance, enough S/L to at least partly feel we`re doing the AT as we should. So, it`s manageable.
But what about I10?
I10 seems pretty hot from reading the current bites about it.
BUT
Between missions and TFs and random attacks, it`s like the rikti are to play far more in the game than now. So, given that we`re vulerable to psionics and therefore we cant tank, we now face a huge portion of the game, against foes where we cant take the damage. In other words where we cant do our jobs and hold the aggro.
It`s kind of like letting the scrappers do their job but against a large portion of the non player villians,they only can do half damage, or less.
This concerns me. It really comes down to why certain people play Tankers in the first place, rather than the more flashy sets. Our role is being eaten into more and more.
A while ago, the Devs stripped the Tanker to our absolute bare bones.
i now think it`s time they gave us some of those bones back.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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