I played a lvl 30 ice/ice tank - (wont play again until scaling defence comes into play).
On up to 6 man teams, i could hold 90-100% of ALL aggro from team (a few exceptions - like the cabal). Blasters would be gleefully firing off snipes, never getting hit once, Bubblers would only bubble me, AoE going round off around all the densely packed mobs all falling over on my ice slide.
I had taunt + chilling embrace. Ice tanks truly are marvellous at holding aggro. Even if mobs do decide to run from the largest AoE auuto taunt, they are slowed and falling on ice slide when doing it.
Now granted, my build was for maximum protection - no offense at all, but ive never ever seen teams like that, when all other toons just never ever got ATTACKED let alone hit. That kinda tanking is a dying art, mainly cos of ED, but also cos tanks these days dont seem to get it... the more aggro they get the better the team. Ive met a few good tanks, but IMO nothing holds aggro like ice tanks.
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BTW I've never seen a SS/Inv tanker hold agro WITHOUT taunt and their damage output (I have one) pales next to a scrappers damage. IMHO, and it is purely an opinion this type of tanker without taunt is just a scranker and the team would be better off with a scrapper.
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My standard trick from level 20ish was to hold aggro using just Combustion Punchvoke ( and later FSC ) and Invincibility and scan the rest of team and target them or their targets using taunt. The fact that my 'attack chain' was just PBAoEs meant that I could look after the team better. In I5 and later ( levels 22+ IIRC ) I found there was no point in using taunt on melee range enemies to 'keep' aggro, it was only there if I lost it.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Also, I used to play a bit back in the days when Taunt was single-target and most Tankers relied on Provoke and back then, there was a lot of tankers who managed to hold aggro on invincibility alone and was quite content (and so was their team mates) with it too. There were a few taunt-less and provoke-less tankers back then. I can't see why a taunt-less tanker should "fail" when we have punch-voke.
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Gauntlet has been introduced as an inherent power only in I5, but tankers had already that ability(only not slottable) before.
They 'gave' us the faith of having a 'new' inherent but it's always been there.
Issue 5 just showed that to us(like scrappers' criticals, always been there, even without the inherent)but weakened it, A LOT.
Think of those tankers herding +5 or higher with just the taunt aura and occasionally and AoE attack, now a +4 already NEVER follows you for more than 200ft. because the taunting of the taunt auras is been cut a lot, along with the taunt from attacks.
Now the Gauntlet can be slotted tho, but back in the day when Taunt was single target the auras where far more powerful at keeping aggro.
Anyway, I'm not saying that a tanker is 'that' bad without Taunt, just that I won't rely on one if I'll have to face challenging missions and on big teams.
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I played a lvl 30 ice/ice tank - (wont play again until scaling defence comes into play).
On up to 6 man teams, i could hold 90-100% of ALL aggro from team (a few exceptions - like the cabal). Blasters would be gleefully firing off snipes, never getting hit once, Bubblers would only bubble me, AoE going round off around all the densely packed mobs all falling over on my ice slide.
I had taunt + chilling embrace. Ice tanks truly are marvellous at holding aggro. Even if mobs do decide to run from the largest AoE auuto taunt, they are slowed and falling on ice slide when doing it.
Now granted, my build was for maximum protection - no offense at all, but ive never ever seen teams like that, when all other toons just never ever got ATTACKED let alone hit. That kinda tanking is a dying art, mainly cos of ED, but also cos tanks these days dont seem to get it... the more aggro they get the better the team. Ive met a few good tanks, but IMO nothing holds aggro like ice tanks.
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All tanks (built and played right) are capable of holding a certain number 16/17 -19 The problem is no matter how often you try to tell teams not to attack until you have consolidated aggro someone moves out front and tries to herd the whole mission(exaggerating obviously). Blasters chance a pull, controllers lay on controls as the enemy is running to you, scrappers play like scrankers and sometimes defenders play like 3rd rate why bother blasters.
Half the trouble is with people on the team. I have to ask myself whose side are they on? Because with any tanker you can make it so nobody else needs healing and its ideal if the defender only has to worry about you.
Taunt is an anti ambush tool and there to grab what isnt in your aura. Taunt hits 5 but more come running to you. As often as i try to explain the dont attack until they are actually in my aura it falls on deaf ears. Which is why people who continue initiating the battles sometimes gets watched by me with my aura turned off, "you pull it, you tank it".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Also, I used to play a bit back in the days when Taunt was single-target and most Tankers relied on Provoke and back then, there was a lot of tankers who managed to hold aggro on invincibility alone and was quite content (and so was their team mates) with it too. There were a few taunt-less and provoke-less tankers back then. I can't see why a taunt-less tanker should "fail" when we have punch-voke.
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Gauntlet has been introduced as an inherent power only in I5, but tankers had already that ability(only not slottable) before.
They 'gave' us the faith of having a 'new' inherent but it's always been there.
Issue 5 just showed that to us(like scrappers' criticals, always been there, even without the inherent)but weakened it, A LOT.
Think of those tankers herding +5 or higher with just the taunt aura and occasionally and AoE attack, now a +4 already NEVER follows you for more than 200ft. because the taunting of the taunt auras is been cut a lot, along with the taunt from attacks.
Now the Gauntlet can be slotted tho, but back in the day when Taunt was single target the auras where far more powerful at keeping aggro.
Anyway, I'm not saying that a tanker is 'that' bad without Taunt, just that I won't rely on one if I'll have to face challenging missions and on big teams.
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Nope, it wasn't always there. Punch-voke wasn't around before I4 I believe (might have been I3, poor memory).
And, truth told, I'm not really sure why I'm continuing to argue this, it's like this you see: My Tanker doesn't have taunt. It's a power like everything else, I didn't pick it up. I've done fine without so far. End of discussion. It's up to one's own if you pick it up or not. I've never quite seen it since the punch-voke and AoE changes, but if Taunt is so AT-defining, why not make it inherent as well? Which, by the way, was the original point many tried to make when Tankers still were more or less required to pick up Provoke.
It's a whole other issue if you already have taunt, and won't use it and can take the aggro as the original post was all about. Not that picking up Taunt automaticly makes you a Taunt-bot, but it's then a tool in your little toolbelt and not using it is lack of judgement not a respectful statement in being an "anti-taunt-bot".
It's not just ED. ED plus the AoE nerfs plus the Taunt Cap plus the def/res nerfs have all made tanking as it was, extremely difficult.
I think that is in part what's causing the decline in tanking. Previously you could start "tanking" in your teens and it was expected that a tank knew how to do their job. These days, however, you can't really tank properly until your early/mid-20's and that's more than enough time for you to get into a scranking mentality - and once you get into the routine it's hard to change it.
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It's a whole other issue if you already have taunt, and won't use it and can take the aggro as the original post was all about.
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Thanks for picking up on that. It's an important point. No tank should feel obligated to take taunt, but if they DO take it then they should learn how and when to use it. JUST as a blaster should learn how and when to use his AoE.
The OP was a team setting where it'd be safe for the tank to use taunt. We had the right composition, a defender who could keep the tank alive and my attempts to explain this to the tank ALL went unacknowledged.
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
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It's not just ED. ED plus the AoE nerfs plus the Taunt Cap plus the def/res nerfs have all made tanking as it was, extremely difficult.
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Before the changes tankers were good on DOs, very solid on SOs and really awesome by the mid 30s.
Now they are good on SOs and very solid by the mid 30s providing they have certain builds ( of these Stone with Granite is the easiest to achieve but Inv can certainly get there too so I imagine the others can ).
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I think that is in part what's causing the decline in tanking. Previously you could start "tanking" in your teens and it was expected that a tank knew how to do their job. These days, however, you can't really tank properly until your early/mid-20's and that's more than enough time for you to get into a scranking mentality - and once you get into the routine it's hard to change it.
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I agree.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
I still say you can start Taunting and tanking any time, _provided_ you have a defender who can give special attention to you; an empath, a kineticist who can drop Transfusion by you, etc. The team's got to take those attacks anyway; if they are filtered past your defense and/or resistance, that's less total damage taken, albeit concentrated in one place, and it's taken on a longer health bar that heals quicker.
[That's why this doesn't work well with a defender who can't concentrate on you, like FF; yes, you drawing aggro means less damage overall, but an FF defender can't do anything extra for you once you're bubbled.]
My fire tanker was never not "nerfed"; she started after the AoE changes, the taunt cap, the defence changes - and she's never had SOs in a non-ED world. Took the areavoke as soon as possible (which is right away, for those who don't have fire tankers); switched targets in a fight and bounced around with Combat Jumping to get everyone good and annoyed with me, etc. Sure, I got planted every now and then, but everyone gets planted now and then on random Hollows PUGs...
Conversely before all these changes I had my Invul tanker - with DOs - knee deep in a mob of 30 red and purple Tsoo. They could not wear her down fast enough that Dull Pain couldn't keep her up. That's tanking as it was and frankly it was absurd.
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I still say you can start Taunting and tanking any time, _provided_ you have a defender who can give special attention to you; an empath, a kineticist who can drop Transfusion by you, etc. The team's got to take those attacks anyway; if they are filtered past your defense and/or resistance, that's less total damage taken, albeit concentrated in one place, and it's taken on a longer health bar that heals quicker.
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So can any AT though, the only advantage tankers really have until their defences ramp up in their 20's (now) is their higher than normal hitpoints.
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thing i run into is tanks only taunting and thinking thats all that a tanks supposed to do...
a lot of the time you dont need to taunt more than once a the start of a fight, beyond that it'd be better off actually attacking.
all to often in this game i see the extremes, either something (not just taunt) isnt done at all or its overdone, both are to the detriment to the team, moderation and knowing when to play is the best skill someone can learn, unfortunately some people never learn and the people who learn figure out that you dont even need some powers (like taunt) to still remain effective.
@ExtraGonk
And areavoke powers and taunt to get aggro, and higher resistances than scrappers (and trivially than blasters, controllers, and defenders) - not merely because, say, Invul powers do more on a tanker, but because they unlock their defensive set earlier than a scrapper and they are more free to concentrate on it both in power selection, slotting (the effect of which is small but non-zero with DOs) and in where their endurance is spent. Don't neglect these things just to give us the usual stuck-record.
Very simply; the base 30% S/L of Temporary Invulnerability doesn't seem like a lot if you're used to i3 silly tankers, but if you are an empath (I choose empaths here because they more directly turn blue into green than any other defender AT, especially in the early levels) would you rather the damage you are healing was filtered through it or not?
It's a bit dismal for Ice tankers at the moment but we are finally getting a Defence system that should improve matters - and, to be fair, the conceptual failing that gave us the defective psuedo-D&D mechanics is so deeply rooted in the MMO* industry that it was almost inevitable CoH would get it wrong.
It's hardly Dismal for Ice Tankers, I'm quite happily out-tanking everything but Granite Armour right now - whether that's down to the powerset or the player is entirely up to you to decide.
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I think you'd have to agree that a powerset that works less well on tougher enemies is rather suboptimal.
[Incidentally, I think your signature is precisely about-face. The problem with Defence is the concept; "clone D&D mechanics". It was never, under any circumstances, going to work with that concept.]
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I think you'd have to agree that a powerset that works less well on tougher enemies is rather suboptimal.
[Incidentally, I think your signature is precisely about-face. The problem with Defence is the concept; "clone D&D mechanics". It was never, under any circumstances, going to work with that concept.]
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Suboptimal, maybe, but that doesn't mean it's dismal.
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Like with most things, some tankers are better players than others. I'm not sure that having/not having taunt necessarily has a lot to do with it, but I'd agree that, having picked taunt and then not using it seems... pointless?
My SS/Invul doesn't have taunt, and probably won't ever take it. I mention 'NO TAUNT' prominently and early in my search comments (maybe I should have just named him 'Tauntless'?) I have never ASKED to be on a team, so if someone doesn't like it - well then, DON'T recruit me, and if they do, don't then be giving me a hard time about it!
As to why I don't have taunt? Well, firstly I tend to solo a lot, and taunt is about as much use to me solo as an ashtray is on a motorcycle. As a result, my tank is more of a 'scranker' build, also mentioned in my search comments, so, 'let the buyer beware'.
Why do I solo? - well, sadly, most teams I've been on have been pretty disorganised, and many seem to have absolutely no idea how to use a tanker. My tank has never once faceplanted solo in 41 levels, he only EVER dies on teams. Even without taunt, teams usually seem to need me a lot more than I need them, and if they were prepared to learn to work better with me they'd still find me very useful.
I can't count the times I've been the teams only tank, been asked to take point, and have then had an un-stealthed/non-invisible team mate run ahead of me and accidentally pull uncontrolled aggro (I have stealth myself for recon purposes) Anyone who gets ahead of me and draws aggro in these circumstances deserves all they get, and I'm certainly NOT wasting a power pick to save their sorry behinds!
The other classic is when I've been asked to take point and pick a route and the leader has asked the party to follow my lead please. So, I set off only to see on my map that some of the party have split and gone exploring somewhere else completely... taunt is unlikley to save THEM if they get into trouble, and I really don't see that as my problem anyway.
As to trying to explain to people that I need a few seconds alone with a mob to get them focused on me.... waste of breath/bandwidth usually. Again, I can't count the number of times I've been about to contact a mob only for someone to fire at them or worse, unload a big AoE before I can land a punch. Exactly which bit of 'wait please' was unclear? Again, I'm not wasting a power pick to mitigate other peoples stupidity.
Conversely, I've never found my lack of a taunt to be a problem with sensible payers. I have a ranged attack (hurl) and a PBAoE which work just fine as openers to get the bad guys interested in me - as long as no one else gets trigger happy first.
My normal tactic in teams is to target the toughest bosses/Lt's in a group (especially Mezzing types etc.) and focus on shutting them out of the fight whilst keeping their attention on me and away from the team. I hardly ever bother hitting minions and rarely put 'finishers' into cripples when anything tougher is on offer. With Gauntlet and all the knockback/disorient effects of SS I can comfortably keep 2, sometimes 3 boss types totally occupied almost indefinitely, usually along with quite a few lower level goons besides, as long as no one else interferes. Oh, and I always try to stay aware of my teams status (Invul/SS tanking is rarely very frenetic, too easy to punch yourself out of endurance if you go bonkers) So, if someone needs help I can almost always go over (combat jump works well there) and just punch their oppressor off them. I've yet to have a mob continute persecuting a team mate after I've smacked the offender upside the head! - I can't fault gauntlet there. If a 'squishy' has somehow got themselves into a whole heap of trouble with multiple attackers, then IMO opinion they've screwed up. I'll still go over and help out, but again, I'm not taking taunt just to cover their mistakes.
I'm not saying taunt is useless, just that IMO it's not the be-all and end-all of tanking. I don't claim to be an uber tanker, I'm not, I'm a 'scranker' first and foremost, though I CAN tank competantly in the right circumstances. Teams that are down with what I'm capable of can and do get decent mileage out of me, and can count on the big nasty types leaving them alone if they let me do my thing. Teams that aren't, or are incompetant or inexperienced? - well, I really doubt if having taunt would help much there.
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Like with most things, some tankers are better players than others. I'm not sure that having/not having taunt necessarily has a lot to do with it, but I'd agree that, having picked taunt and then not using it seems... pointless?
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To tank properly you have to understand tanking and enjoy it. I think a lot of tankers don't.
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Why do I solo? - well, sadly, most teams I've been on have been pretty disorganised, and many seem to have absolutely no idea how to use a tanker. ....
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Unfortunately true. I think because there are less tanks that know what they are doing than there were...
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As to trying to explain to people that I need a few seconds alone with a mob to get them focused on me.... waste of breath/bandwidth usually. Again, I can't count the number of times I've been about to contact a mob only for someone to fire at them or worse, unload a big AoE before I can land a punch. Exactly which bit of 'wait please' was unclear? Again, I'm not wasting a power pick to mitigate other peoples stupidity.
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The bit that annoys me the most is when people stand in plain view when I say "Get out of sight, I'm pulling to here" and/or attack the enemies before they reach the designated point.
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Conversely, I've never found my lack of a taunt to be a problem with sensible payers. I have a ranged attack (hurl) and a PBAoE which work just fine as openers to get the bad guys interested in me - as long as no one else gets trigger happy first.
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A ranged attack does probably does wonders. Some other tanker swear by fireball, something that I have considered adding to my build. As far as I'm concerned these can replace much of Taunts functionality from the pulling side of things. However Taunt has got the advantage that it is autohit....
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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The bit that annoys me the most is when people stand in plain view when I say "Get out of sight, I'm pulling to here" and/or attack the enemies before they reach the designated point.
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And thus agro the group you were trying to peel some mobs off without agroing. It does my head in. I actually asked a team is everyone spoke English and if so were the words I was using too big for them?
(\_/)
(O.O) Bunny: Our time is coming
(> <)
I think it's something of a catch-22 here. I don't imagine anyone is 'born' a great tanker, you probably have to learn to become one. So how DO you learn to become one? Actually I'm not at all sure, but my guess is that either someone with more experience teaches/advises you, or maybe you pick it up with a team as you go along. Obviously, having a competant advisor is vital for the first method to yield worthwhile results, and I'd imagine that having a decent (or at least reasonably organised) team is probably pretty important for the second method.
Well, in all my time playing CoH hardly anyone has ever been forthcoming with any advice on how to play my tank (other than telling me to get taunt) Also, as my entire CoH career has been PUG after random PUG, I've rarely if ever teamed with the same people more than once or twice, and usually no one else in the group has teamed with anyone else there on a regular basis either. So, I've never really been able to pick up much that way either.
I quickly got tired of chaotic PUG's so I just went solo, and after ED I respec'd my tank into a 'scranker' - as a result of which I probably stand pretty much flat zero chance of ever learning how to be a better tank.
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I actually asked a team is everyone spoke English and if so were the words I was using too big for them?
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I've been invited onto both all-Spanish and all-Italian teams before now for some reason (desperation?) Well, at least, I THINK those were their nationalities - not 100% sure as I do not speak either language! Anyway, it soon became clear that no one else on the team spoke (or was prepared to speak) a word of English. Needless to say I bailed pronto. Since then I have been on a few teams where the odd member has appeared to have little or no understanding of English (or was totally unresponsive to any communication, even though they were clearly not AFK) What's with that I wonder?
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(although CE is much better than Taunt).
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If they take aggro away from you CE is nexty to useless cos the foes are already headed towards the squishy, to grab aggro away from squshy nothing can be compared to taunt.
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Doesn't happen, since CE slows the mob it will still be in the aoe for the next pulse, and as its a tanker taunt it will overide any amount of aggro.
Energy Absorption was the cournerstone of Ice when it buffed defence into the silly numbers pre issue 5. Now its been turned into just another end recovery power that increases your defence by a tiny amount.
I really should do something about this signature.
being a fire tanker, I do have my reasons for not getting taunt. my powers aren't defensive or offensive enough. upon a technicality, if I use taunt I'll die and then there will be a team wipe 
Aggro management has changed, no doubt about it. With the Aoe limits, the taunt limits and everything else, it's harder for us than it used to be. We adapt, like everything else, but understand that some of the feats you used to ask of us are now more or less impossible, and the rest are a lot harder.
While we're at it, from the tank side, I have a number of gripes about pickup group comments about tanking.
Gideons Tanking "Don't whine to me about..." List
<ul type="square"> [*]AoE's. As much as I'd like to be able to save you, if I'm tanking AoE capable mobs, and you stand next to me, you WILL get hurt. Don't tell me I'm not doing my job if you're in AoE radius of me while I'm working, and you plant. [*]Herding. Sometimes the mobs don't follow you when you aggro them, through whatever means, but stay at range and shoot you from afar. Don't complain when I haven't been able to corral a bunch of attackers who are determined to stay at range into a nice neat nova-able group. The prime example being the Cabal, but there are others. [*]Malta. I am an Inv Tank. A solid hit from a sapper or two will toggle drop me. At that point I am jam, and useless as a tank. Accusing me of cowardice becuase I will not run into a mob which has more than one sapper without some kind of backup with me to take them out is just plain silly. [*]Psi. Unless I am a stone tank, I have problems with Psi Damage. Do not expect me to be able to fend for myself properly against anything that has a massive psi-damage component.[/list]
The bottom line is that I5/I6/ED has put an end to the time when you could just turn the tank loose, concentrate on healing everyone else, and expect the tank to be happy on their own, at least in groups of above 3 or 4. Now we need maintainance just like every other AT. I leave it to the peanut gallery as to wether that's a good thing.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Gideon makes a point, us tankers are being pressured to do most of the fighting and we cant do it all. we may have a good axe arm but the blade of that axe does go blunt and our arms do start to ache. so if we're pressued to do the damage taking, we could atleast get some support. and we can't do great against all damage:
"right Acenra, go over there and take on that mob of Fortuna seers"
"um, I can't defend against psi damage"
"what part of you're a tanker dont you understand? you can defend against all damage! now go!"
"sigh"
five seconds later
"I lastest five seconds!"
"thats four longer than yesterday"
"my debt is MASSIVE!"
so yeah, we could do with some credit, our gauntlet inheret power is already like taunt. if we enter a mob first or attack any of the enemies, the mob's attention will go to us anyway, so really we don't need taunt.
True
I think you're very lucky if theres another tanker though - we're a dying breed at the moment 