A plea to all tankers

Not directed at anyone specific but if you have "taunt" the USE IT. And if one of the squishies cries out for you to use it as their health plummets redward then don't ignore them and keep on scranking. That makes you a rubbish tank imho.

Sorry, a rant prompted by a rubbish team I was on last night. Two tanks, one couldn't taunt and the other WOULDN'T taunt. And the latter ignored me everytime I brought the subject up.

What levels are we talking about, and team make up? At early levels Taunt is almost certain death for Tanks in large groups so it's not surprising someone would be reluctant to use it.

If you have an 8 man team on, say the Igneous missions in the Hollows, and a single tank... I'd certainly think twice (Three times even) about using it.

Give your rant some context, please.

Frosty lvl 15/16 party even lvl mobs. 2 defenders, 1 controller (me) 2 tanks, 1 scrapper and 1 blaster. Using taunt was far from certain death. The defender had a heal, as did I.
We even managed it right on 1 occassion; the tanker rushed in, taunted, I hit them with an AoE hold, locked down the boss then the lts and AoE'd the rest of the mobs again.

On that ocassion the tanks took LESS damage than when they didn't taunt. When he wasn't taunting neither me nor the blaster were using AoEs so the mob wasn't slowed or being damaged as quick.

I have a tank, I know taunt can be certain death if you don't have the right team backing you. But this wasn't the case here.
I think the group was made up for the most part of newish players. One even commented, after the third death, about how well it was going ?!?

It should also be noted the taunt does not always work, and from my experiance many blasters, defenders, dont seem to understand that they can and do take the agro away from the tank with aoe then moan when they say so why didnt you taunt them.

I would say that yes if a tank has taunt and does not use it when its safe for him to do so then it can make for a bad tank.

But if your team was as you said made up of new players they may not have picked up how there AT work yet, and lets be fair frosty is one of the first missions where you go omg we are all going to die here

That makes more sense certainly, and with a good team makeup (Which you had) there's certainly little reason for the Tank with Taunt not to use it (If only to make sure that runners are controlled).

As for the one that didn't, many Tanks don't like to use it. There are other tools for Taunting in the Tank sets (PBAoE auras mainly, along with the 'punchvoke' effect of the attacks and Gauntlet) and some Tanks find that enough. Not saying I agree (Far from it, I personally wouldn't consider building a Tank without it), but some people certainly do.

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As for the one that didn't, many Tanks don't like to use it. There are other tools for Taunting in the Tank sets (PBAoE auras mainly, along with the 'punchvoke' effect of the attacks and Gauntlet) and some Tanks find that enough. Not saying I agree (Far from it, I personally wouldn't consider building a Tank without it), but some people certainly do.

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I went through 40 lvls with a fire tank who didn't use taunt. Didn't need it, her fiery aura was more than enough.
I think I'm irked for two reasons, the first being completely ignored by the offending tank when I tried to explain that if he taunted I could lock down most of the mob.
The second being watching the team fragment into little groups and have individual battles. At one point I was left with 2 bosses and an LT all to myself whilst the tanks messed about with some minions.

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The second being watching the team fragment into little groups and have individual battles. At one point I was left with 2 bosses and an LT all to myself whilst the tanks messed about with some minions.

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Ah, the Statesman school of tanking.

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Ah, the Statesman school of tanking.

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now thats funny

/e applause

Taunting's pretty dangerous until DOs, even then it's risky... you're really not a proper Tank till SOs. DOs aren't even nearly enough unless you have all shields possible...

Yeah, at level 16 I wouldn't consider taking taunt, and if I had it would only use it if I was fully buffed by a defender (preferably 2).

At level 25+ then yes, Taunt away merrily (although CE is much better than Taunt).

Although being new to tanking, i didnt take taunt until lvl 22.
Not because i didnt want to BE a proper tank, i felt i was too squishy.

Now i have SO's i have taken taunt, and full intend to be everything ppl expect from a tank.

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Although being new to tanking, i didnt take taunt until lvl 22.
Not because i didnt want to BE a proper tank, i felt i was too squishy.

Now i have SO's i have taken taunt, and full intend to be everything ppl expect from a tank.

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There is also the issue that prior to 22, assuming you want a travel power and stamina and to pick up a single extra attack ( the level 4 one ) you have only 5 choices left. With Ice, Inv and Stone these pretty much have to be from your primary or you are compromising on defence. Only Fire actually has a real choice ( whether to take consume, burn, taunt or a third attack ).

From Invulnerability I count Temporary Invulnerability, Unyielding, Invincibility as the vital three. No different to fire; S/L, mez and stuff, and areavoke [1]. What are the other two?

[Edit; and, err, Dull Pain or equivalent. Ahem. But what's the other one?]

I think it's a big mistake for Invul tankers to take RPD at level 1 - and at every other subsequent power selection choice up until the mid-twenties, you have a better power available. Even an attack can be a better defensive power than RPD's paltry value; if you defeat an enemy, that's 100% resistance against its damage.

I would taunt in the described situation, SOs, DOs, or unslotted powers. If I'm worried about my ability to take the damage, it's always going to be worse for the poor squishy - and worse for any healing we have around if the damage isn't filtering through whatever res/def I do have.

[1] *Please* resist the urge to tell me that Invincibility gives defence, etc...

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At level 25+ then yes, Taunt away merrily (although CE is much better than Taunt).

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Glad someone else thinks that, yes taunt is very useful and should be used but I hate it when non tanks talk about taunt as if it's the only power to keep aggro.

As for the Hollows though...taunting even with heals is a little on the dodgy side in 8 person teams. You have no idea if your team will cover you.

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Not directed at anyone specific but if you have "taunt" the USE IT. And if one of the squishies cries out for you to use it as their health plummets redward then don't ignore them and keep on scranking. That makes you a rubbish tank imho.

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Speaking strictly as an Inv/SS relying on Haymaker and AS here, I can juggle bosses around very easily. One KO Blow and I'm doing more than chipping away their life. Invincibility + Punch-Voke. I also rely heavily on Jab as an attack and as a trigger for Punch-voke in my build.

I have not yet felt the need for Taunt. And I've not caused any team to die because I didn't have it. Maybe I could have saved someone, sometime with it but if a Blaster runs away from the Empath, the controller, me and the rest of the team with a following of five lieutenants and a boss and yells: "Help! Help!" I don't think I'm to blame

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Sorry, a rant prompted by a rubbish team I was on last night. Two tanks, one couldn't taunt and the other WOULDN'T taunt. And the latter ignored me everytime I brought the subject up.

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Well, level 15/16 you say? Many tankers don't stand a lot of beating even at that level.

But you say you had a good team going. Well, there's a lot of circumstances regarding the player: age, language, casual, playing while distracted, etc, etc.

As a small rant on my part, I think it's great the devs ridded the tanks dependancy on Provoke (and thus having to pick up an excessive power pool), and I really like the new taunt. But the AoE cap on it just makes it less appealing again. I might pick it up one day, but so far I'm doing fine without.

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From Invulnerability I count Temporary Invulnerability, Unyielding, Invincibility as the vital three. No different to fire; S/L, mez and stuff, and areavoke [1]. What are the other two?


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The ones I was thinking of were:-
Inv : Temporary Invulnerability , Dull Pain, Unyielding, invincibilty and RPD.
Fire : Fire Shield, Healing Flames, Plasma Shield, Blazing Aura.
Ice : Frozen Armor, Chilling Embrace, Wet Ice, Hoarfrost, Glacial Armor.
Stone : Rock Armor, Earth's Embrace, Mud pots, Rooted and Probably Crystal Armor. I've never played stone

Thinking about it maybe you can cut it down to 4 for all, dropping RPD and the energy armours for Ice and Stone.

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I think it's a big mistake for Invul tankers to take RPD at level 1 - and at every other subsequent power selection choice up until the mid-twenties, you have a better power available. Even an attack can be a better defensive power than RPD's paltry value; if you defeat an enemy, that's 100% resistance against its damage.

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I haven't levelled an Inv tank from 1 to 20 for a while (I4 when RPD + Ti +Un could cap resists with DOs ) so I don't know whether the trade off of getting RPD is worthwhile. I dropped RPD for tough in I6. It really is pretty pathetic, but it gets you up to 50% on DOs. However unlike the others Inv really needs taunt as they have no decent aggro holding at low levels.

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[1] *Please* resist the urge to tell me that Invincibility gives defence, etc...

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Invincibility gives defence, etc... :P

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(although CE is much better than Taunt).

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If they take aggro away from you CE is nexty to useless cos the foes are already headed towards the squishy, to grab aggro away from squshy nothing can be compared to taunt.
I rolled a new tanker, an ice one, and I got Taunt at lvl 8(before the patch that switched the 3rd attack and taunt)and I've done fine up till now(lvl 21)without DOs and without SOs, simply because if you're taunting them, the buffer/debuffer/healer/whatever can focus on the foes around you or focus on healing you, hence more safety for all the team.
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Ice : Frozen Armor, Chilling Embrace, Wet Ice, Hoarfrost, Glacial Armor.

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Well, Energy Absorption is the cornerstone of Ice and you say that's not vital?

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Well, Energy Absorption is the cornerstone of Ice and you say that's not vital?

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But I don't believe it's available pre-22?

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As for the Hollows though...taunting even with heals is a little on the dodgy side in 8 person teams. You have no idea if your team will cover you.

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They're definitely NOT going to cover you if they're spread over 2 rooms fighting individual battles

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But the AoE cap on it just makes it less appealing again. I might pick it up one day, but so far I'm doing fine without.

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A tank's job is to hold agro. That's their primary function on the team. If you can hold agro without taunt (and I know many who can) then fine.
I remember being caught on caltops, can't remember the name of the mobs who throw them down, layer upon layer of them so I can barely move. I'm taking a HUGE hiding, dull pain is up, IH is running and I'm downing greens for all I'm worth - standing RIGHT next to me is a stone tanker whose chipping away at one of the mobs, full health and who has taunt and refused to use it.
"I don't taunt," was his reply to my pleading.
The upshot was I faceplant. Now that's bad tanking and I'm seeing more and more of it.
(BTW the example I gave, it was around lvl 42).

I can't help but feel if the defenders did likewise then no one would be getting buffs anymore.

BTW I've never seen a SS/Inv tanker hold agro WITHOUT taunt and their damage output (I have one) pales next to a scrappers damage. IMHO, and it is purely an opinion this type of tanker without taunt is just a scranker and the team would be better off with a scrapper.

That'll be the wonderful Knives of Artemis. *shudders*

On a positive note, autohits from those are apparently getting looked at so that +DEF sets (In particular) can't be taken apart by Caltrops / various [currently] autohit auras. Yay!

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BTW I've never seen a SS/Inv tanker hold agro WITHOUT taunt and their damage output (I have one) pales next to a scrappers damage. IMHO, and it is purely an opinion this type of tanker without taunt is just a scranker and the team would be better off with a scrapper.

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Well, you're free to watch my level 30 Inv/SS Tanker some day. I hold aggro pretty well, and KO Blow One-shots any minion (almost). And I destroy lieutenants as well. And, with AS and Haymaker and occassional KO Blow I can juggle bosses as well.

I do notice Invincibility and Punch-voke. Often foes turn around again to keep aiming at me, after being drawn by some blasters damage.

Also, I used to play a bit back in the days when Taunt was single-target and most Tankers relied on Provoke and back then, there was a lot of tankers who managed to hold aggro on invincibility alone and was quite content (and so was their team mates) with it too. There were a few taunt-less and provoke-less tankers back then. I can't see why a taunt-less tanker should "fail" when we have punch-voke.

And, as my Tank is only level 30 I might pick up Taunt, but I've just not figured out how I should fit it into my playstyle yet.

Yes, I scrank a lot, but I'm not considering it a weakness. I really don't like AT stereotypes.

I feel content with my ability to hold aggro, have not yet caused or not been able to prevent a team kill (where I could acctually change the outcome).

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That'll be the wonderful Knives of Artemis. *shudders*

On a positive note, autohits from those are apparently getting looked at so that +DEF sets (In particular) can't be taken apart by Caltrops / various [currently] autohit auras. Yay!

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Yeah that's them. I don't whether I agree caltrops shouldn't autohit. The damage is not worth thinking about and the real penalty is simply being slowed.
And if you've got fly or hover then they don't even do that.

Yes its easily possible for a Tank to hold aggro without taunt. However, especially on large teams, taunt is invaluable to pull targets away from squishies when ur surrounded by a group already.

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Yes its easily possible for a Tank to hold aggro without taunt. However, especially on large teams, taunt is invaluable to pull targets away from squishies when ur surrounded by a group already.

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Well, on a large team I'm there's often a slim chance that there is a Controller or Defender, often negating any real need for Taunt. And chances are there's another tanker to divide aggro further.

Teaming often hides even the most obvious flaws in a build