Starting the CoH/CoV Tarot Deck...

While cleaning out files, I found the notes I'd started a while back on creating a City of Heroes/City of Villains tarot deck. Got the Major Arcana done (and no, they don't necessarily follow what's in the Mystic Fortune power). Minor Arcana will take me a lot more work...

UPDATED VERSION
The Fool - Fusionette (or Synapse)
The Magician - Positron or Daedalus
The High Priestess - War Witch (her + coven)
The Empress - Lady Grey (the power behind the throne)
The Emperor - Statesman/Imperious (overt power)
The Hierophant - Sister Solaris (or either Akarist or Talshak)
The Lovers - Sister Psyche and Manticore (duh)
The Chariot - the Rikti Mothership
Strength - Back Alley Brawler
The Hermit - Dark Watcher (of course)
Wheel of Fortune - the Ouroboros Menders (put Laz, Tess, Silos, and Pilgrim at the four cardinal points) - alternately, use Foreshadow (good, evil, good, evil, etc) or the mandala graphic that appears on the Mystic Fortune power
Justice - Blue Steel (street justice, baby)
The Hanged Man - Ghost Widow (perpetual stasis)
Death - Lord Recluse (of course)
Temperance - Numina (she strikes me as being in balance, not too much of one thing or another)
The Devil - Nemesis (too good not to - false choices, temptations, machinations...)
The Tower - Grandville (or Ghost Widow's Tower in Mercy)
The Star - Shadowstar (this card and the two that follow are always related, hence three Kheldians)
The Moon - Moonfire
The Sun - Sunstorm
Judgment - the Arbiters (in retrospect, how could I have NOT thought of this before)
The World - Atlas holding the globe

Anyone else think we should get David Nakayama to do the art for the cards?

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

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Seems good, my only disagreements would mostly be the result of it simply being a matter of having first read different readings of what the Tarot mean, but otherwise it seems good.

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I'd move Recluse to the Devil, Mako to Death, replace either Akarist or Foreshadow with Sirocco, move Synapse back to Fool and put a Rikti Mothership as the Chariot.

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You have made the single most grave error any person could make when making anything CoH based.

You left out Blue Steel.

Of course in this situation Blue Steel would be all the cards if things were to make sense. However I think making him stand for "Strength" would be good enough to appease him.

-Rachel-

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The only one I might take issue with is the Hierophant, but that may be mostly due to my interpretation of the card. The priest element is superficial, but if you want an actual priest, Tobias Hansen is a vicar. On a different level, the Hierophant is a guide to the mysteries, rather than a source of wisdom; Talshak the Mystic would be a plausible Hierophant in this context.

How would you approach the Minor Arcana? Assign an element/symbol-appropriate faction to each suit? Warriors would be the obvious choice for Swords. Perhaps CoT (or Legacy Chain) for Wands, Carnies for Cups, and Family for Coins? Maybe have each suit follow a story arc or task force featuring the faction?

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The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems good, my only disagreements would mostly be the result of it simply being a matter of having first read different readings of what the Tarot mean, but otherwise it seems good.

[/ QUOTE ]

First rule I was ever told about tarot...
DO NOT LOOK AT THE MEANINGS!!
the cards are a tool for your psychic ability to interpret, the readings you find in books are nothing more than what the writer has seen while reading. each card can possibly have an infinite number of meanings. thirdly the cards are not innately magical in themselves, in fact they started as a game, and someone discovered that they can be used to aid in psychic prediction.

For example Ive pulled the world card for a friend of mine and interpreted it to mean that she's gonna do whatever she feels like regardless of what others say, it turned out true and is growing truer everyday (unfortunately) even another friend of mine who's done tarot for a lot longer has said she's never looked at the card that way before.

Now, that being said, would this be a functional deck? if so I would totally buy one and use it. If not, I would totally buy one cause it'd be cool.

Possibly for the four suits:
Wands: various wands from in game, for CoT mages to the Nemesis Staff
Swords: ...yeah, not even gonna start explaining this one
Cups: now this one's a bit difficult, Helmets maybe?
Coins: Enhancements

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50Soulsunder: DM/Regen Scrapper
50Limitshift: EM/WP Brute
Victoria Nox: Dark/Dark Dominator
And about 5 others that change constantly...

I would put Positron as the Hierophant - he's got that 'knower of things' thing goin' on, and Blue Steel as Strength or Judgment. Or Blue Steel as Justice and BAB as Strength.

As for the Minor Arcana, you should take things that mean things in CoH.

Pentacles - Salvage
Pentacles are a practical thing, and Salvage is used as a building block for other things. So I can see them

Wands - Inspirations
Wands are a Fire sort of thing, often directing the flashes of Will. Inspirations seem to fit there.

Swords - Enhancements
Enhancements are more methodical than Inspirations, but are still part of continuing self-improvement. That fits with the Swords use as a tool of directing focused and premeditated Will.

Cups - Influence
Cups are about containing and, ultimately, support. Influence underlies most of everything in the game. It ebbs and flows in a tidal way, which fits the watery nature of Cups.

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[ QUOTE ]

First rule I was ever told about tarot...
DO NOT LOOK AT THE MEANINGS!!
the cards are a tool for your psychic ability to interpret, the readings you find in books are nothing more than what the writer has seen while reading. each card can possibly have an infinite number of meanings. thirdly the cards are not innately magical in themselves, in fact they started as a game, and someone discovered that they can be used to aid in psychic prediction.

For example Ive pulled the world card for a friend of mine and interpreted it to mean that she's gonna do whatever she feels like regardless of what others say, it turned out true and is growing truer everyday (unfortunately) even another friend of mine who's done tarot for a lot longer has said she's never looked at the card that way before.



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To say they don't have their own meaning is somewhat false, but rather there is no set interpertations of what the card's mean to each person is more accurate. It's up to you to determine the meaning of those cards and interpert them in the reading which your doing and the other cards in that reading.

Each card has it's own basic symbolism that you can't ignore and if you do, then your no longer practicing standard tarot but something you've made up on your own. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing! After all there are several different "tarot standards", which who have applied their own symbolism to the cards. Thoth based cards are highly different from Rider-Waite cards. Neither which I support.


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Now, that being said, would this be a functional deck? if so I would totally buy one and use it. If not, I would totally buy one cause it'd be cool.


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Of course it would. Belief comes from the person, not the images on the cards. But also, from your own understanding of those cards. The best deck of tarot cards you can have is that which you make yourself. Even in sake of CoH Tarot.. very few will have a set image on what the cards should be represented by.

For Example; Fusionette as the Fool? Some would say because she's an idiot that needs to be flicked in the nose. I read it as her childish nature, her lack of maturity and her desire to prove herself that causes her the inability to evaluate her own situations properly. Others might think someone else, like Azuria is more fitted for the fool.

If you can't see Fusionette as the fool then no, the cards won't work for you.

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I think you should use the Tarot figures already in the game from the Mystic Fortune power.

Death - GW
Fool - Synapse
Hermit - Dark Watcher
Lovers - Manti & Sr. P.
Magician - Numina
Moon - Midnight Squad
Sun - Altar of the Sun (Cimerora) (I think that's what that symbol is)
Tower - GW's Tower
Wheel of Fortune - Some random mandala over CoH



The others with some tweaks...


Judgment - The Three Sisters
Justice - Blue Steel in front of PPD


The Empress - Lady Grey (the power behind the throne)
The Emperor - Statesman/Imperious (overt power) Suggestion: Use both like a modern King in a deck of cards.
The Hanged Man - The Honoree (the Hanged Man and the Empress have a connection)


The High Priestess - War Witch (her + coven)
The Hierophant - Sister Solaris

The Chariot - How about a Portal?

Strength - Ms. Liberty (the granddaughter of an incarnation of Zeus is a good analogue for Hercules)

Temperance - Positron (always has to keep his powers and the hotheads in check)
The Devil - Nemesis (too good not to)

Moon - Midnight Squad
Sun - Altar of the Sun (Cimerora) (I think that's what that symbol is)
The Star - The Ouroboros symbol

The World - Paragon City

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[ QUOTE ]
Seems good, my only disagreements would mostly be the result of it simply being a matter of having first read different readings of what the Tarot mean, but otherwise it seems good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean - I've got six or seven different tarot decks and the meanings are always given differently. So the meanings *I* use are MINE after roughly 20 years of tarot study and use.

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I'd move Recluse to the Devil, Mako to Death, replace either Akarist or Foreshadow with Sirocco, move Synapse back to Fool and put a Rikti Mothership as the Chariot.

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Hmmmmm. Of those, the one I agree with is the Mothership as the Chariot... the others don't quite resonate right for me. Scirocco I think I'd be FAR more likely to make either the King of Swords (for obvious reasons), the King of Cups (especially that emo thing), or the Seven of Cups (the card of bad choices).

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You have made the single most grave error any person could make when making anything CoH based.

You left out Blue Steel.

Of course in this situation Blue Steel would be all the cards if things were to make sense. However I think making him stand for "Strength" would be good enough to appease him.

-Rachel-

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Actually, now that you mention it, I'd put Blue Steel back to back with BAB on the Justice card (BAB facing away and slightly behind, Blue Steel facing forward, shield dominant). The two 'sides' of justice, and the warning that it's a very fine line between justice and vengeance.

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The only one I might take issue with is the Hierophant, but that may be mostly due to my interpretation of the card. The priest element is superficial, but if you want an actual priest, Tobias Hansen is a vicar. On a different level, the Hierophant is a guide to the mysteries, rather than a source of wisdom; Talshak the Mystic would be a plausible Hierophant in this context.

[/ QUOTE ]

For me, the Hierophant has always been the card of faith, in all its myriad forms, hence the semi-obvious choice of Sister Solaris, priestess of the sun god. Talshak might be a good choice, now that you mention it.

[ QUOTE ]
How would you approach the Minor Arcana? Assign an element/symbol-appropriate faction to each suit? Warriors would be the obvious choice for Swords. Perhaps CoT (or Legacy Chain) for Wands, Carnies for Cups, and Family for Coins? Maybe have each suit follow a story arc or task force featuring the faction?

[/ QUOTE ]

See my response to someone else's suggestion below.

[ QUOTE ]

First rule I was ever told about tarot...
DO NOT LOOK AT THE MEANINGS!!
the cards are a tool for your psychic ability to interpret, the readings you find in books are nothing more than what the writer has seen while reading. each card can possibly have an infinite number of meanings. thirdly the cards are not innately magical in themselves, in fact they started as a game, and someone discovered that they can be used to aid in psychic prediction.

For example Ive pulled the world card for a friend of mine and interpreted it to mean that she's gonna do whatever she feels like regardless of what others say, it turned out true and is growing truer everyday (unfortunately) even another friend of mine who's done tarot for a lot longer has said she's never looked at the card that way before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too far off what I've said about that card. I've surprised other tarot readers by relating the World card and the Death card both as cards of transition of self. Then again, I've taught classes on the tarot before, so I'm used to surprising people.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, that being said, would this be a functional deck? if so I would totally buy one and use it. If not, I would totally buy one cause it'd be cool.

Possibly for the four suits:
Wands: various wands from in game, for CoT mages to the Nemesis Staff
Swords: ...yeah, not even gonna start explaining this one
Cups: now this one's a bit difficult, Helmets maybe?
Coins: Enhancements

[/ QUOTE ]

See my response below.

[ QUOTE ]
I would put Positron as the Hierophant - he's got that 'knower of things' thing goin' on, and Blue Steel as Strength or Judgment. Or Blue Steel as Justice and BAB as Strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was actually tempted to make Positron/Daedalus the Magician (the knower, the creator, the artificer), but went for the potentially more obvious choice of Akarist. Should I change it?

And I also really like the suggestion of Blue Steel as Judgment, and swap him out for Foreshadow. Damn, now I'm torn where to put him.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the Minor Arcana, you should take things that mean things in CoH.

Pentacles - Salvage
Pentacles are a practical thing, and Salvage is used as a building block for other things. So I can see them

Wands - Inspirations
Wands are a Fire sort of thing, often directing the flashes of Will. Inspirations seem to fit there.

Swords - Enhancements
Enhancements are more methodical than Inspirations, but are still part of continuing self-improvement. That fits with the Swords use as a tool of directing focused and premeditated Will.

Cups - Influence
Cups are about containing and, ultimately, support. Influence underlies most of everything in the game. It ebbs and flows in a tidal way, which fits the watery nature of Cups.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THIS I like. Only problem is how to represent certain concepts using these things... not to mention what the generic symbols for each (Enhancement, Inspiration, Influence, Salvage) would be.

Other ideas I'd tinkered with (going back to the more classic interpretations) were:

Four of the five Origins:
Technology as Earth (logical practical experimentation)
Science as Air (mental leaps but not mystic, just those EUREKA moments)
Mutation as Fire (a useful tool if controlled properly)
Magic as Water (the ebb and flow of power)
Yes, this leaves out Natural, but that's more the 'human' element controlling all.

Fire, Earth, Lightning/Storm, and Ice as the four elements.

The four patrons each representing an element:
Ghost Widow as Air
Black Scorpion as Earth
Captain Mako as Water
Scirocco as Fire

You get the idea... there are so many ways to do this.

I'll go back and update my initial post for choices of the Major Arcana.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

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The World - Paragon City

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Surely this should be Atlas holding the globe on his back?

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The World - Paragon City

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Surely this should be Atlas holding the globe on his back?

[/ QUOTE ]

ARGGGHHH!!!

Damn you, I should have thought of that.

*dashes back to edit her original post*

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

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Oops, forgot the link to the Mystic Fortune deck:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mystic_Fortune

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Awesome, Dark!!!

I had thought about this not long ago and wondered whatever had happened to this idea.. really glad to see it's back again!

(Didn't have time to read the thread, but will fave it and return.)

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My first MA: It's a No Good day. (Arc ID: 92684)
@CybinMonde: Nethershift - (50) - Dark/Regen/Dark scrapper (Infinity)
@Solunis: Desumater - (27) - Elec/Dark brute (Pinnacle); Syrah - (23) - DB/WP scrapper (Pinnacle) (proud member of Pinnacle on Tap)

[ QUOTE ]
While cleaning out files, I found the notes I'd started a while back on creating a City of Heroes/City of Villains tarot deck...

Anyone else think we should get David Nakayama to do the art for the cards?



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be down for this. Got a couple other things I'd like to draw for you guys as well...

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David Nakayama, Lead Concept Artist
COH Concept Art Gallery now open at http://pixelsaurus.deviantart.com/

ZOMG!

That would be fantastic! What else would you like to draw?

-Rachel-

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Wheel of Fortune - Some random mandala over CoH

[/ QUOTE ]The "random mandala" is a wheel of 12 of the 14 ATs (VEATs are excluded) surrounding the 5 Origins

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

Why isn't Strength Black Scorpion? <.<

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What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?

PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes

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ARGGGHHH!!!

Damn you, I should have thought of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

I don't think Ghost Widow really works as the Hanged Man, because she's, well, a woman. She makes a far better Death.

I'd suggest having Lord Recluse as the Emperor, and Statesman as the Hanged Man. That may seem strange at first glance, but... remember Issue 2 of the Top Cow comic?

Here's a link to it. States does the whole suspended-upside-down bit, as a voluntary exercise to gain insight. That is PURE Hanged Man symbolism.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While cleaning out files, I found the notes I'd started a while back on creating a City of Heroes/City of Villains tarot deck...

Anyone else think we should get David Nakayama to do the art for the cards?



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be down for this. Got a couple other things I'd like to draw for you guys as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhhhh holy crap. Need some suggestions? I'd be happy to PM/e-mail you some material for you to use as a source...

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There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.

For the Hierophant, I'd go with Baron Zoria, or Vanessa DeVore, as both have "cults" around them.

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I'd be all over this in six different ways. o.o

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Arc ID: 475246, "Bringing a Lord to Power"

"I'm only a simple man trying to cling to my tomorrow. Every day. By any means necessary."
-Caldwell B. Cladwell

For Judgement, I'd recommend Malaise. The card is associated with absolution, redemption and accepting one's past mistakes. Under Sister Psyche's "guidance", Malaise is working off the karmic debt he incurred as a villain by fighting as a member of the Vindicators. Alternatively? Perhaps Scirocco.

The Chariot card is associated with bravery and conviction. A person represented by the Chariot card is typically concerned with victory, whatever the cost. They're the kind of person that once they've set their mind on something, they're difficult to dissuade. These characteristics make me think of Ms. Liberty, who is so determined to have victory over Arachnos, she went beyond most heroes to form an army, Longbow and her own supergroup, the Vindicators. Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would think the Rikti mothership fits this on anything other than a superficial level.

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[ QUOTE ]

First rule I was ever told about tarot...
DO NOT LOOK AT THE MEANINGS!!
the cards are a tool for your psychic ability to interpret, the readings you find in books are nothing more than what the writer has seen while reading. each card can possibly have an infinite number of meanings. thirdly the cards are not innately magical in themselves, in fact they started as a game, and someone discovered that they can be used to aid in psychic prediction.

For example Ive pulled the world card for a friend of mine and interpreted it to mean that she's gonna do whatever she feels like regardless of what others say, it turned out true and is growing truer everyday (unfortunately) even another friend of mine who's done tarot for a lot longer has said she's never looked at the card that way before.



[/ QUOTE ]

To say they don't have their own meaning is somewhat false, but rather there is no set interpertations of what the card's mean to each person is more accurate. It's up to you to determine the meaning of those cards and interpert them in the reading which your doing and the other cards in that reading.

Each card has it's own basic symbolism that you can't ignore and if you do, then your no longer practicing standard tarot but something you've made up on your own. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing! After all there are several different "tarot standards", which who have applied their own symbolism to the cards. Thoth based cards are highly different from Rider-Waite cards. Neither which I support.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, left that bit out, post was a retype in haste cause my original post was accidentally deleted when i hit the back button (built into my keyboard)

Yes each card does have its associations and words attributed to it, but as i said, one can see any card in nearly infinite ways.

The first time I sat down at a tarot class though and given the deck, I was rather strongly advised to throw out the manual that comes with the cards, as well as not use any translation books on the subject for I was told the printed meanings tend to limit your mind to only the things read on the page, and for something that requires personal psychic interpretation, that's not a good thing.

And I do use the Rider-Waite deck, l like how the images are set up, but, I would like to find a deeper deck that does something to elaborate on these classic images, for they might allow me greater insight.

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50Soulsunder: DM/Regen Scrapper
50Limitshift: EM/WP Brute
Victoria Nox: Dark/Dark Dominator
And about 5 others that change constantly...

I was under the impression this was an ornamental deck, not a tool for channeling our "psychic abilities". Maybe because the thought of a fortune-teller using a CoX deck is a bit, well... laughable.

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