Should they look at Scrapper Inherent?
By
Ahmon,
Posted on: 2009-07-23 20:21 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
All good, then. At this point I get where you're coming from (even if I may disagree with some of it!), and lord knows you probably are tired of hearing from me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Something to keep in mind when talking about inherent powers. The devs built all villain ATs around their inherent powers. They are actually needed for balancing out the ATs.
While heroes on the other hand didn't have inherent powers for the first 2 yrs of the game. Inherent powers weren't build around the ATs. Merely added after heroes complained about not having something villains had. So the devs just gave them something to pacify them. More or less. Well except for defiance 2.0 at least in pvp and especially new pvp with the mes protection for tier 1 and 2 blast is overkill imo but that for a different thread.
So in short. Heroes are lucky to have any inherents at all really. Their ATs weren't org. built to need them unlike villain's ATs.
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The only change that will need to occur after I-16 goes live is the addition of the brute evasion taunt aura to scrapper SR.
[/ QUOTE ] This. I want it so bad. I'm tired of little [censored] tankers taking my aggro when I know I can handle it better them then.
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First of all, it's "then them"... second of all it's than, not then
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Thirdly of all, confront is the one power I never take on any of my scrappers. A taunt aura would just be another power to ignore. It's like giving Kheldians the Flight pool.
That's not entirely true.
The original Defiance was supposed to alleviate Blaster problems.
Containment was added to help Controllers in the early levels.
And even in Issue 0 Scrappers had a limited form of Critical hits.
In regards to Scrappers, Critical Hits wasn't a formalized inherant until I5 or thereabouts, hence my original statement.
Anyways this thread has made one thing clear
/Regen needs to be nerfed for Scrappers
buffed for Stalkers
and given to Defenders as a new primary
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That's not entirely true.
The original Defiance was supposed to alleviate Blaster problems.
Containment was added to help Controllers in the early levels.
And even in Issue 0 Scrappers had a limited form of Critical hits.
In regards to Scrappers, Critical Hits wasn't a formalized inherant until I5 or thereabouts, hence my original statement.
Anyways this thread has made one thing clear
/Regen needs to be nerfed for Scrappers
buffed for Stalkers
and given to Defenders as a new primary
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Fast Healing - All nearby allies will have their Regeneration rate increased slightly. This power is always on and costs no Endurance.
Reconstruction - Heals a single targeted ally. You cannot use this power to heal yourself. Recharge: Fast
Quick Recovery - All nearby allies will have their Recovery rate increased slightly. This power is always on and costs no Endurance.
Dull Pain - Makes one ally more resistant to pain, effectively increasing your ally's maximum Hit Points for a short time. Dull Pain also grants your ally resistance to Toxic Damage. Recharge: Very Long
Integration - Frees an ally from any Disorient, Hold, Sleep, and Immobilize effects and leaves them resistant to such effects for a good while. Also, grants target a Regeneration bonus. The Protection will improve with multiple applications and as you advance in level, although the Regeneration boost will only apply for the first few applications. Recharge: Fast
Resilience - Resilience gives your ally resistance to Smash and Lethal damage as well as Protection from Disorient effects. You cannot stack Resilience on the same target, however the effect can be improved by another ally using the same power. You cannot use this power on yourself. Recharge: Very Fast
Instant Healing - Instant Healing dramatically increases the healing rate of all nearby heroes for a limited time. This power costs you a lot of Endurance, and it takes a long time to recharge. Recharge: Very Long
Revive - Resurrects a fallen ally with full Hit Points and Endurance. The Resurrected target is left protected from XP Debt for 90 seconds. Recharge: Very Long
Moment of Glory - Dramatically increases an ally's Resistance and Defense to all damage types except Psionics for 15 seconds. Also increases Endurance Recovery and grants Protection from Knock Back, Sleep, Disorient, Immobilization, and Hold effects. Recharge: Very Long
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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/Regen needs to be nerfed for Scrappers
buffed for Stalkers
and given to Defenders as a new primary
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Unless this is concerning PvP, I'm really curious from where in your [censored] you're pulling that first one. The second one, I'd say could simply stand to have the stalker hp cap increased (to 1.75 times base or 2108.4). The third one is pretty much already true considering Empathy.
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/Regen needs to be nerfed for Scrappers
buffed for Stalkers
and given to Defenders as a new primary
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Unless this is concerning PvP, I'm really curious from where in your [censored] you're pulling that first one. The second one, I'd say could simply stand to have the stalker hp cap increased (to 1.75 times base or 2108.4). The third one is pretty much already true considering Empathy.
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ysosrs?
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The only change that will need to occur after I-16 goes live is the addition of the brute evasion taunt aura to scrapper SR.
[/ QUOTE ] This. I want it so bad. I'm tired of little [censored] tankers taking my aggro when I know I can handle it better them then.
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First of all, it's "then them"... second of all it's than, not then
[/ QUOTE ] I blame the alcohol 
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The only change that will need to occur after I-16 goes live is the addition of the brute evasion taunt aura to scrapper SR.
[/ QUOTE ] This. I want it so bad. I'm tired of little [censored] tankers taking my aggro when I know I can handle it better them then.
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First of all, it's "then them"... second of all it's than, not then
[/ QUOTE ] I blame the alcohol
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I blame the head trauma from repeated Scrappering.
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That's not entirely true.
The original Defiance was supposed to alleviate Blaster problems.
Containment was added to help Controllers in the early levels.
And even in Issue 0 Scrappers had a limited form of Critical hits.
In regards to Scrappers, Critical Hits wasn't a formalized inherant until I5 or thereabouts, hence my original statement.
Anyways this thread has made one thing clear
/Regen needs to be nerfed for Scrappers
buffed for Stalkers
and given to Defenders as a new primary
[/ QUOTE ]
Fast Healing - All nearby allies will have their Regeneration rate increased slightly. This power is always on and costs no Endurance.
Reconstruction - Heals a single targeted ally. You cannot use this power to heal yourself. Recharge: Fast
Quick Recovery - All nearby allies will have their Recovery rate increased slightly. This power is always on and costs no Endurance.
Dull Pain - Makes one ally more resistant to pain, effectively increasing your ally's maximum Hit Points for a short time. Dull Pain also grants your ally resistance to Toxic Damage. Recharge: Very Long
Integration - Frees an ally from any Disorient, Hold, Sleep, and Immobilize effects and leaves them resistant to such effects for a good while. Also, grants target a Regeneration bonus. The Protection will improve with multiple applications and as you advance in level, although the Regeneration boost will only apply for the first few applications. Recharge: Fast
Resilience - Resilience gives your ally resistance to Smash and Lethal damage as well as Protection from Disorient effects. You cannot stack Resilience on the same target, however the effect can be improved by another ally using the same power. You cannot use this power on yourself. Recharge: Very Fast
Instant Healing - Instant Healing dramatically increases the healing rate of all nearby heroes for a limited time. This power costs you a lot of Endurance, and it takes a long time to recharge. Recharge: Very Long
Revive - Resurrects a fallen ally with full Hit Points and Endurance. The Resurrected target is left protected from XP Debt for 90 seconds. Recharge: Very Long
Moment of Glory - Dramatically increases an ally's Resistance and Defense to all damage types except Psionics for 15 seconds. Also increases Endurance Recovery and grants Protection from Knock Back, Sleep, Disorient, Immobilization, and Hold effects. Recharge: Very Long
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Sold! We'll take it. (Is resilience a big bubble like FF or Sonic?) 
Was joking.
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I think you might overestimate the area of the stalker critical.
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I don't think he does. Not vs. "hard targets" and on a large team.
[/ QUOTE ]Sure, but that's funnily enough, not all the time. In fact, considering the teams I find myself on, that's barely 5% of the time. AVs, pylons, gms, sure. Great. Whoo hoo. They're good at that.
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Anyways this thread has made one thing clear
/Regen needs to be nerfed for Scrappers
buffed for Stalkers
and given to Defenders as a new primary
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I really hope you're joking. /Regen nerfed for Scrappers? As if it hasn't gotten nerfed enough already? It's turned into a "click-to-stay-alive" set, which is fine with me. But it should NOT get any weaker than it is now (not that it's weak, but other sets are far more powerful at the top end, ie Willpower and Shield Defense).
Stalkers? They -shouldn't- be as tough as Scrappers. Then they'd have all the advantages of a Scrapper plus being able to Hide.
Regeneration for Defenders is called Empathy.
Back to the original topic: Scrapper inherent needing a buff. Do they
-need- it to stay competitive? No. Not at all. They're one of the most well-balanced AT's in the game. I view criticals as just a nice bonus that sometimes happens. Scrappers certainly don't need any buff, and I believe they don't need a nerf at all either.
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I think you might overestimate the area of the stalker critical.
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I don't think he does. Not vs. "hard targets" and on a large team.
[/ QUOTE ]Sure, but that's funnily enough, not all the time. In fact, considering the teams I find myself on, that's barely 5% of the time. AVs, pylons, gms, sure. Great. Whoo hoo. They're good at that.
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You mean like when I said...
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There's also the matter that "hard targets" aren't that big a part of the game.
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Frankly, unless they somehow mutate them into some kind of force multiplier, there's no version an assassination class that's ever going to be especially attractive to generic teams plowing through normal content. (Note that, given the casual nature of this game, "not especially attractive" does not have to equate to "never invite due to uselessness".) Meanwhile, I'll take a version that's reasonably good at hard targets, since I actually do spend a significant part of my game time playing content that includes them - TFs, raids (Hami or RWZ), etc. After all, the previous version wasn't especially good at anything.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think you might overestimate the area of the stalker critical.
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I don't think he does. Not vs. "hard targets" and on a large team.
[/ QUOTE ]Sure, but that's funnily enough, not all the time. In fact, considering the teams I find myself on, that's barely 5% of the time. AVs, pylons, gms, sure. Great. Whoo hoo. They're good at that.
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You mean like when I said...
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There's also the matter that "hard targets" aren't that big a part of the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Frankly, unless they somehow mutate them into some kind of force multiplier, there's no version an assassination class that's ever going to be especially attractive to generic teams plowing through normal content. (Note that, given the casual nature of this game, "not especially attractive" does not have to equate to "never invite due to uselessness".) Meanwhile, I'll take a version that's reasonably good at hard targets, since I actually do spend a significant part of my game time playing content that includes them - TFs, raids (Hami or RWZ), etc. After all, the previous version wasn't especially good at anything.
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The way VEATS have forcemultiplication ability is something I think should have been used to improve stalkers. Not sure where I'd fit it in, but if they offered the team defense that VEATs can throw around Stalkers would be a lot more attractive.
Need a thematic reason?
I'd feel a lot more confident (survivable) going into a fight knowing some invisible killing machine is ready to sucker punch the living hell out of my opponent.
After playing a NW and a stalker into the mid 30's the NW feels like a stalker 2.0
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I really hope you're joking. /Regen nerfed for Scrappers?
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I don't think anyone who has said "nerf Regen" in the last several years has been serious.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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(QR)
Scrappers do not need buffs.
[/ QUOTE ] I disagree, Scrappers are horrible on teams. They don't bring anything to a team at all.
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Ok. It is not true. But even if it was. So what?
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
.citsacras gnieb saw eH
!s'loof lirpA
A Scrapper can bring to a team often times the same thing a Blaster can: more damage. Albeit, Blasters dish out the most damage in the game, but Scrappers are definitely no joke. Ever been in AP with all those boss farm broadcasters? They're asking for AoE-centric Blasters and Scrappers.
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The only change that will need to occur after I-16 goes live is the addition of the brute evasion taunt aura to scrapper SR.
[/ QUOTE ]Only if it comes with brute-like reordering of powers. I've played a /SR through the low-levels, it's not happening again. I could deal with or without the taunt aura, personally, since it's not the only scrapper secondary without one.
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And more proliferation.
[/ QUOTE ]Agreed, we need ice armor scrappers.
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And talons instead of wrist mounted claws.
[/ QUOTE ]Will be burning so many free costume changes on my claws/sr, "a small adorable fox".
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And bigger mouths with more sharp, pointy teeth.
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Only four changes need to be made to scrappers after I-16.
And click mez protection acting as a breakfree.
[/ QUOTE ]Definitely something I can get behind. Won't add much to high-level if you can work the pause into your scrapperlocking, but it'll be great for low-levels, before you get it perma.
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FIVE changes... only five changes after I-16 goes live.
And...
Oh bollocks, I'll come in again.
[/ QUOTE ]I see what you did there.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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It is impossible for the scrapper inherent to be a duplicate of the stalker inherent, because they had it first.
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Distracting semantics. Scrapper and stalker inherents are highly similar regardless of which came first.
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That still bugs me that they gave the scrapper inherent to stalkers on TOP of their guaranteed critical from hide, and even made it so the stalker version works better.
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Goes to show how generic the scrapper inherent is, when it gets lifted outright for another AT.
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(QR)
Scrappers do not need buffs.
[/ QUOTE ] I disagree, Scrappers are horrible on teams. They don't bring anything to a team at all.
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They need a donut power. Hand out donuts when team is idle.
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If the team is idle, the scrapper isn't using his inherent properly.
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People gotta take a bio break sometime or it will get messy.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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If it bothers you that I didn't pick up on it, try considering that some of that has to lie with your posting and not this idea that it's all something wrong with my ability to parse your posts.
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Agreed. My failure to communicate clearly is what bothered me the most. While I was rolling my eyes saying, "Why doesn't he get it," if I truly felt you should have gotten it without fail, I would not have tried explaining again.
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I still take issue with the kernels of seriousness that underlay your posts.
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My points are debatable. I am not sure they are worth debating, but if you are interested I can attempt to defend them further.
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Were you around for the dev comments on these changes?
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I was, but it was a while ago and they were really the first changes I saw to the game. My perception of that time is questionable, as is my memory.
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Seriously now, do you think the devs said "hey, Scrappers aren't up to snuff. Let's make DA's armors stack!"
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Well, kind of. Perhaps more, "Scrappers have serious QoL issues that make them less fun to play, while at the same some of them have performance issues that make them much stronger defensively than we intended."
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Finally, understand that this disagreement of mine with things like the above this further obscured your sarcastic intent.
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The very reason I needed to respond to DMystic in the first place, so I understand.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.