[ QUOTE ]
In my experience , no they arent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I will just say we have different experiences and the devs will do what they want to do. I love my defenders and lookiing forward to leveling a 4th to 50.
Thanks for the replies/comments. 
I've not seen lack of teaming due to my AT, but I have seen lack of teaming due to my power sets.
Sometimes people really get at me with their priorities.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Vigilance needs the Defiance treatment.
[ QUOTE ]
Green numbers are but one of a Defenders many vital uses and one of the only things Vigilance works for, to some degree.
[/ QUOTE ]
When "healing" defenders are on a team with damaged teammates, how do they use their vigilance boost? To heal. Wow. How endurance intensive. They can do that all day without vigilance. That's like saying hydrogen fuel cells will revolutionize chainsaws with their efficiency. It just doesn't matter. My empath gets miniscule benefits from vigilance compared to my forcefielders, who can still afford to endlessly blasts and use expensive toggles when people take a hit.
I can spout multiple anecdotes, but my sonic defender is transformed by relatively small amounts of damage, and I can then magically continue to lay on the mutlitude of -res debuffs without endurance impeding me. Otherwise I'm forced to rarely attack, and turn toggles off to rebuff the team. I see so many people complain about endurance, but when a defender's team is placed in even remotely threatening situations that allow those problem to be muted, the endurance cost of toggles, attacks, and debuffs aren't important anymore. It's mind boggling.
Vigilance is in general a crappy inherent, but if you people don't have anything to do but heal when someone pricks their finger, you really need to be more aggressive.
That's something I've noticed as well since returning. When teamed, and the team finds itself in a bit of a bad spot - I have zero endurance issues. More than a few times I've looked at my bar during a battle, thinking I might need to turn some toggles off, and nope I'm full blue or close to it.
So the inherent works... And maybe possibly it helped me defend a team... But it's so rarely useful that I'd probably prefer almost anything else.
Defenders tend to use less endurance on teams because they don't have to spend it all killing things. My Dark/Rad Defender has never had endurance issues on teams, not in Issue 1, not in Issue 7, not in Issue 15. Solo, though, he's always running out despite my slotting.
[ QUOTE ]
Green numbers are but one of a Defenders many vital uses and one of the only things Vigilance works for, to some degree.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never understood the fascination people have with blaming healing for vigilance. Healing ruins vigilance. Enervating Field is an expensive toggle that is, hopefully, preventing your team from dying, but not stopping vigilance. RI is a cheap toggle that hopefully prevents vigilance, but if something goes wrong, it does not eliminate vigilance. Dropping Tar Patch and using DN and FS are all much easier with a bit of vigilance.
The single best thing about vigilance, IME, is being able to blast and blast and blast without worrying about my blue bar. That often saves a team health loss and endurance.
I just wish I could be a little vigilant about myself as well.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Im wondering if the people that complain about vigilance actually monitor their end redux?
Active 50's
Darklocked (dm/sd Brute)
Wardman (Fire/sd Scrapper)
Congealer (ice/cold Corruptor)
Peroxisome (mind/psi Dominator)
Evil Thing (Fire/Kin Corruptor)
Proud Member of Repeat-Offenders
[ QUOTE ]
Im wondering if the people that complain about vigilance actually monitor their end redux?
[/ QUOTE ]
I actually do not monitor it, but if my team fails to take damage, I can't help but notice that I run out of endurance. Its not a big issue at that point, since a team taking no damage is usually doing well enough that it won't matter if I have to slow down a bit on shooting stuff. 
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders tend to use less endurance on teams because they don't have to spend it all killing things. My Dark/Rad Defender has never had endurance issues on teams, not in Issue 1, not in Issue 7, not in Issue 15. Solo, though, he's always running out despite my slotting.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the real reason is because slow people delay the team inbetween battles, so you have more time to recover.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders tend to use less endurance on teams because they don't have to spend it all killing things. My Dark/Rad Defender has never had endurance issues on teams, not in Issue 1, not in Issue 7, not in Issue 15. Solo, though, he's always running out despite my slotting.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the real reason is because slow people delay the team inbetween battles, so you have more time to recover.
[/ QUOTE ]
That could explain why my experience is mildly different. Most teams I am on move quicker than we should.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
QR
Remember that the history of Vigilance is partly that teams *wouldn't let* Defenders do anything but buff/heal the team, since anything else was a "waste" of their precious Endurance. Vigilance was partly a solution to a people problem, a problem I'd hate to see return.
[ QUOTE ]
Im wondering if the people that complain about vigilance actually monitor their end redux?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have mine up on screen, along with positional defenses and recovery. I never have end problems, solo or on a team, which is why I am complaining. gimme an inherent that does something plz 
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders tend to use less endurance on teams because they don't have to spend it all killing things. My Dark/Rad Defender has never had endurance issues on teams, not in Issue 1, not in Issue 7, not in Issue 15. Solo, though, he's always running out despite my slotting.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the real reason is because slow people delay the team inbetween battles, so you have more time to recover.
[/ QUOTE ]
That could explain why my experience is mildly different. Most teams I am on move quicker than we should.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was kicked from my 2nd team this weak for a combo between too aggressive and actually using KB on teams that really need more mitigation. Both being the Tankers yelling to let them go in first, standing around for a long time, me getting bored, me attacking, and the enemies coming towards them when they "aren't ready yet". Both times there was an Empath on the team who was team leader and kicked me because I went after the mobs first and was using KB.
First time was a 3-4 man team with my Cold Dom/Energy Defender. Second time was on a 7-8 man team who someone asked me to join because the team was doing poorly, to which I pulled out my Storm/Sonic and took a SK. It went from the entire team dying to me dying every other spawn or so and no one else dying.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but sitting around for a few minutes before each spawn isn't fun. Even 30 seconds I start to get itchy. That's why I use a cunning use of the map, actual belief that my team will actually follow me into the battle (usually the reason I tend to die), and the use of flags. Anyhow, that might just be me and my over idealistic points of view.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
cant read all but id like to point out one thing about the inherent power and the fact that is best on teams....
are you ready....... Your a DEFENDER...look it up .. im sure it dosnt mean solo monster.. the arch types name implies what its best at.
dont get me wrong they can solo and AT can... oh and BTW you get an END discout per pet on team keep that in mind.
so on a huge team with pets like an illison or MM couldnt we say the power is broken heck ur bar would move if u used a nuke(not really) but u get the idea.
and a squids power sucks solo but is great on team. its almost like were in a MMO that allows team play or somthing.....
[ QUOTE ]
...its almost like were in a MMO that allows team play or somthing.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Kill the heretic!
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...its almost like were in a MMO that allows team play or somthing.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Kill the heretic!
[/ QUOTE ]
/em batsmashreact
[ QUOTE ]
actual belief that my team will actually follow me into the battle (usually the reason I tend to die)
[/ QUOTE ]
I get that. I find that, usually, the team gets it after my second or third death and all of a sudden they start keeping up. Sometimes, they never get it, sadly.
[ QUOTE ]
Even 30 seconds I start to get itchy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your patience astounds me. 
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actual belief that my team will actually follow me into the battle (usually the reason I tend to die)
[/ QUOTE ]
I get that. I find that, usually, the team gets it after my second or third death and all of a sudden they start keeping up. Sometimes, they never get it, sadly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Today, they started to get the idea, but then when someone else got aggro and the *team* started to die because of dual aggro, my KB using aggressive self was to blame, even though the group we were supposed to go after was the group I was going after.
I say supposed when the tanker was standing less than a few feet away from me. Evidently the Empath gets ticked off when the team wipes and there's someone the melee characters dislike. I like to call it scape goat.
Once again noting, I wasn't really using KB to prevent the possible second group aggro. Silly me and my not using KB in paranoia for the very reason we got killed.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Quote:
The Defender inherent should be changed to buff the defender with a share of the buffs they give out, or the opposite of the debuff they're dealing.|
Originally Posted by Golden_Pie
the idea behind Vigilance isn't bad, it just sucks as is in practice. He's how it can be improved:
Vigilance 1) Instead of an Endurance discount, make it +recovery and add in +regen while increasing the effectiveness beyond the current paltry levels. or 2) Increase the end discount, and add the like for the health bar. So if endurance gets a discount then health should too in the form of -dmg. |
Most progressive inherents (Fury, Domination, Defiance) increase in value as you excel at your archetype's function. Brutes do more damage when they are attacked by more mobs. Dominators get more domination the more they dominate. Blasters get more damage the more they deal damage.
Defenders currently get their inherent benefit by failing to do their job. If you're doing well, you will never see any benefit whatosever from your good performance because your team will lose no hit points. In essence, defenders are punished for doing their job well.
The defender inherent should work along the same lines as Fury, Domination and Defiance. You reap some benefit based on the action you take.
For example, each person you buff with Fortitude would give you some small increase in defense, to-hit and damage. Using Deflection Shield on a team mate would give you some smash, lethal and melee defense and toxic resistance.
Debuffing powers buff the defender with the opposite of the debuff. For example, a defender running Hurricane would get a to-hit buff. A defender running Radiation Infection would get a defense buff. Glue Arrow would give resistance to slow. Ice Arrow would give Hold Resistance. Lightning Storm would give +End.
Powers that already buff the defender (Healing Aura, Steamy Mist) would do nothing extra. Absorb Pain, Heal Other and O2 Boost would have to be special cases. Each use of these powers could give a brief +Recharge buff, or a brief End discount buff.
There's ample precedent for this sort of thing in the comics. Heroes are often resistant to the powers they wield because of their deep knowledge of elemental forces.
This would mean that certain Defender ATs would reap benefits only when teamed. But since those powers are only useful on teams, the player already made the deal with that devil at creation time.
This would be a big project, and is probably beyond the scope of what we can expect the devs to implement for defenders. But they should at least change it so that you get a short-duration end discount, or regen, recovery, or recharge buff every time you use a primary power, and not just when when your team is dying.
Quote:
I almost forgot about this thread.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Just asking Aurex.
In one part you say defenders weaken enemies (damage mitigation/debuffs) and strengthen allies (buffs), then indicate this needs an overall buff. This is related to my other post, but what will be given up for this buff? Or are defenders not able to perform up to the expectation with their buffs/debuffs? |
What I was saying is that I think it would be nice if Vigilance acted as a minor background buff to a defender's powers. Which would make Vigilance work in and out of teams.
As far as I know, as Vigilance stands now, it's just an end reduction for the defender to heal/buff a team mate who is low on health. Which is fine. But it doesn't always help.
As for what would be given up, it would be the end reduction part of Vigilance. Most of my experience as a defender on Infinity and later on Triumph has been that I've solo'd a giant portion of my career. It didn't matter if I was empathy or not. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing a defender. I just think Vigilance isn't the best option, considering all the things a defender can do.
While a Defender can shine in a team, the problem is that you're not always in one. I see Vigilance currently as a double edged sword. Due to most defender buffs being for someone other than the defender, it encourages teamwork. Someone there to buff and heal and work with. But, you are not always in a team. At least, in my case.
Maybe I need to work on my people skills?
Thanks Aurex for the reply.
I still disagree that something is wrong with vigilance. And in my opinion, in order to change it, it would take away from our strengths.
As for teaming (and not directed at you), players have numerous tools to team, and if they don't use them, then it is not the AT's or game's fault. Like MM's, stalkers, or even doms, I have never, ever seen a message (via global, request, broadcast, etc.) a team advertising for more of them on a team. On the other hand, I have seen many, many messages for buffers/debuffers, but not more scrappers, tanks, PB's, or WS's. Some defenders solo really well and some team really well.
Rodion - I can't really agree with your suggestion. It treads too much on self-buffing and that would reduce/nerf our buffs/debuffs. For example, using your system, how would CM/ID be - status protection now for the defender? SB? Or what about slower recharge powers vs. fast powers - a bubbler or kin vs. fort and CM (with its long animation) of an emp?
i found something interesting and wanted to discuss or at least throw it out there. When viligilance is running it is a good thing. When you are by yourself, viligilance is tough. But with the new "pets" and your pet at the end for your defender (dark), you can fight for long time with those three bodies. Any comments?
it was already talked about briefly in this thread (pets), but they provide a decent amount of end help. I just thought the idea was interesting. Has ne1 tried the non-fighting pet and added they to this to see if they add to the vigilance?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- I have never seen once a defender turned down for a team because of their inherent power.
[/ QUOTE ]
True.
But... I HAVE seen Defenders turned down, because they are Defenders.
I have witnessed someone kicking a good Defender out of a team, to make room for a Controller.
And I have experienced the boggling and dubts that accompany trying to find a team, and not just being ignored, but being rejected.
It has gotten better since then - it seemed when I started the game there was "lol defenders" phase going on... but it sticks with me.
I keep hearing how awsome Defenders are... but I have yet to SEE it. I have yet to EXPERIENCE it. All I've seen is that they start off as pathetic, and - with time, effort, and at least 22 levels of pain and masachism behind them - they can turn into something... mediocre.
So! I have no scary number to back myself up. Just a feeling in my gut that... something's broken, and it needs to be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have seen some of that as well. Mostly in the curious requests on broadcast or on the global TF channels where more and more often I see "need controllers and corrupters for ITF", and not defenders. And some of the same for AE (which I tend to avoid except for making my own missions anyway so no biggee to me there). Anecdotal I admit, but I also wonder what it'll be like when Going Rogue gets here.
On the other hand I've seen how awesome defenders can be, so I can say I have experienced it.
To the original point I think my problem with vigilance is defenders were already awesome on teams, so getting an inherant that only works on teams, well, just isn't very helpful. Whatever it is, I'd like to see something that works solo too. With more people in AE I find myself solo more often than before so I'm finding defenders tougher to play now a days.