No, actually, anything tied to HPs is a bad idea - it encourages Negligence.
And it still does not address the issue of 'no effect when the Defender is solo." Which is what most Defenders want.
And be honest, people. Even if you think Vig is 'Fine,' would you really be upset if they replaced it with something else? Anything that worked in and out of teams?
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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And be honest, people. Even if you think Vig is 'Fine,' would you really be upset if they replaced it with something else? Anything that worked in and out of teams?
[/ QUOTE ]
Upset? Of course not.
Is a change needed? No.
Defenders can be extremely powerful ATs when grouped, espcially together.
- Put an emp with a blaster and just watch the carnage.
- Haven't people done all def TFs (like a MSTF run) and seen how ridiculously powerful defenders are? Now they want to boost that more?
- I have never seen once a defender turned down for a team because of their inherent power.
I have seen things like status protection or damage increase or whatever. From my experience, defenders aren't the perfect ATs to solo. Can they? Of course! In my view, things like a damage boost would require balance to our buffs and debuffs. For status protection - why? This game is easy enough. They may as well get rid of status effects in the game then. Plus I believe corruptors would have a fit that defenders have an inherent status protection and they don't.
from another post i made:
[ QUOTE ]
---include the defender in the calculations for the end reduction
------this means it can actually do something solo
---add in some inverse code to it...when everyone is high in health (in the green), the defender gets a boost to their secondary's secondary effects
------so when no one needs buffs/debuffs from their primary, defenders can blast and get more use out of them
------it would be coded like containment, in that a second amount would be added if the requirements are met (this is better than a powerboost since it would help every set)
[/ QUOTE ]
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- I have never seen once a defender turned down for a team because of their inherent power.
[/ QUOTE ]
True.
But... I HAVE seen Defenders turned down, because they are Defenders.
I have witnessed someone kicking a good Defender out of a team, to make room for a Controller.
And I have experienced the boggling and dubts that accompany trying to find a team, and not just being ignored, but being rejected.
It has gotten better since then - it seemed when I started the game there was "lol defenders" phase going on... but it sticks with me.
I keep hearing how awsome Defenders are... but I have yet to SEE it. I have yet to EXPERIENCE it. All I've seen is that they start off as pathetic, and - with time, effort, and at least 22 levels of pain and masachism behind them - they can turn into something... mediocre.
So! I have no scary number to back myself up. Just a feeling in my gut that... something's broken, and it needs to be fixed.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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I have witnessed someone kicking a good Defender out of a team, to make room for a Controller.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed that recent AE power levelings have caused a steep decline in the average team leader's ability to create strong teams.
When you see it and experience it, it's very possible not to notice - because the effect of Defenders is generally to awesome up the entire team, it can "feel" like you're just hanging around while the scrappers and blasters are being awesome.
Then you get on a team with no or few non-Defenders, and you realize that the enemies' faces are melting off because of what you're doing - the scrappers are just a nice substrate for it, not the entire source.
[ QUOTE ]
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I have witnessed someone kicking a good Defender out of a team, to make room for a Controller.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed that recent AE power levelings have caused a steep decline in the average team leader's ability to create strong teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I won't deny that... these incidents I speak of all happened before Issue 14 was even announced.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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But... I HAVE seen Defenders turned down, because they are Defenders.
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Ever player a stalker? A dom? A MM? What about a scrapper? My ice tank? All rejected in my experience. They must be broken too.
Even with the new SF, in my 5 years of playing, I have never, ever seen a team broadcasting "need more stalkers".
[ QUOTE ]
I have witnessed someone kicking a good Defender out of a team, to make room for a Controller.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh well, that is how some people play. Too bad.
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And I have experienced the boggling and dubts that accompany trying to find a team, and not just being ignored, but being rejected.
[/ QUOTE ]
My 1st lvl50 def was an emp. People like having an emp. Then came the late game when people wanted rads or kins, not emps. Yeah, teaming was great then. My next def was a D3. That was so funny to see people react, saying "you are not a healer". The lol's back then.
[ QUOTE ]
It has gotten better since then - it seemed when I started the game there was "lol defenders" phase going on... but it sticks with me.
I keep hearing how awsome Defenders are... but I have yet to SEE it. I have yet to EXPERIENCE it. All I've seen is that they start off as pathetic, and - with time, effort, and at least 22 levels of pain and masachism behind them - they can turn into something... mediocre.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suggest you look at the link I posted. That was a MSTF of all defenders. I did a STF once with 6 dark defs and 2 storm defs (I would post the link the screen shots, but has long been purged). It was not an issue to complete and one of my most fun TF's. Mediocre? I suggest you try all def TF's and come back on how mediocre they really are.
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So! I have no scary number to back myself up. Just a feeling in my gut that... something's broken, and it needs to be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I only have my experience to back me up, and my gut feeling is that defenders are a fantastic AT that is not broken.
We all know that Vigilance should be a click power that disconnects any idiots from your team that can be fired every two seconds.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
- I have never seen once a defender turned down for a team because of their inherent power.
[/ QUOTE ]
True.
But... I HAVE seen Defenders turned down, because they are Defenders.
I have witnessed someone kicking a good Defender out of a team, to make room for a Controller.
And I have experienced the boggling and dubts that accompany trying to find a team, and not just being ignored, but being rejected.
It has gotten better since then - it seemed when I started the game there was "lol defenders" phase going on... but it sticks with me.
I keep hearing how awsome Defenders are... but I have yet to SEE it. I have yet to EXPERIENCE it. All I've seen is that they start off as pathetic, and - with time, effort, and at least 22 levels of pain and masachism behind them - they can turn into something... mediocre.
So! I have no scary number to back myself up. Just a feeling in my gut that... something's broken, and it needs to be fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you are expecting defenders to become something really awesome solo that might be a problem because many defenders struggle soloing. Defenders tend to shine best in team play
Put at least two defenders on your team whose job is to buff and debuff.. not just heal...
And watch you tear through mobs..
Put three on your team and you steamroll.
Four and your team is a juggernaut...
Defenders are a very underrated AT. I am seriously thinking of writing a guide to the NON Empath Defender so people will know what other defenders bring to the table.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Defenders tend to shine best in team play
[/ QUOTE ]
I am going to follow up on this and emphasize it again. Can anyone show that a defender of any combination is unsoloable? I know the answer and it is "no". If they could, I would agree that something should be done. Are they the best soloer's? Again, no in my experience. But defenders are more team orientated and can make teams incredibly powerful when grouped together.
IMO, these changes that keep getting proposed would result in a nerf to our strongest assets - the buffs/debuffs. I always viewed our damage output or status protection or whatever to be balanced to what we can add to others.
For example, form a duo of blaster and an emp def. Giving that blaster buffs, heals, and status protection makes a powerful combination that more than makes up the lower damage by the emp defender alone.
If they were to change the inherent power for more soloable, then the balance would be that the defenders won't shine as much on teams and would be "replacable" by controllers and corruptors.
[ QUOTE ]
Even with the new SF, in my 5 years of playing, I have never, ever seen a team broadcasting "need more stalkers".
[/ QUOTE ]
The best compliment my stalker has ever recieved was that he was "Like a brute".
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Even with the new SF, in my 5 years of playing, I have never, ever seen a team broadcasting "need more stalkers".
[/ QUOTE ]
The best compliment my stalker has ever recieved was that he was "Like a brute".
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, I seen some amazing stalkers too! Too bad my widow came along and stuck playing her more. 
(minor note above: yes, I know stalkers have been around since CoV launch and not for 5 years. Just making a point.)
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I suggest you try all def TF's and come back on how mediocre they really are.
[/ QUOTE ]
...
This leads to part 2 of my Defender woes. One that, I freely admit, has nothing to do with the AT, and everything to do with ME.
(ahem)
I can't get a freakin' Pick Up Group together! How in the bloody blue blazes do you expect me to get an all Defender team going?!
Seriously, this is the reason why solo performance is so important to me - between limited play time (1-2 hours/night at most, for the most part) and my inability to form teams on my own... my chances of being in a team is vanishingly small.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Ever player a stalker?
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no but if i remember correctly they got a buff a few issues ago
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A dom?
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buffed in i15
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A MM?
[/ QUOTE ]
has a much greater ability to solo than a defender
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What about a scrapper?
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same thing as before
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I only have my experience to back me up, and my gut feeling is that defenders are a fantastic AT that is not broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
i completely agree. defenders are a fantastic (and IMHO the best) AT that isnt broken. its inherent is the opposite of that.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
[ QUOTE ]
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Ever player a stalker?
[/ QUOTE ]
no but if i remember correctly they got a buff a few issues ago
[/ QUOTE ]
They sure did.
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A dom?
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buffed in i15
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And loving the buff.
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A MM?
[/ QUOTE ]
has a much greater ability to solo than a defender
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Yeah, I love soloing AVs with either of my two 50 MMs.
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What about a scrapper?
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same thing as before
[/ QUOTE ]
And completely agree here.
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I only have my experience to back me up, and my gut feeling is that defenders are a fantastic AT that is not broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
i completely agree. defenders are a fantastic (and IMHO the best) AT that isnt broken. its inherent is the opposite of that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, for me the inherent and the AT are one in the same and can't be separate. If you get a chance to read my other post since you only quote part of one for a specific reply to another poster, you can see that I feel that a change in vigilance would nerf what makes the AT shine.
[ QUOTE ]
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Ever player a stalker?
[/ QUOTE ]
no but if i remember correctly they got a buff a few issues ago
[/ QUOTE ]
They sure did.
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A dom?
[/ QUOTE ]
buffed in i15
[/ QUOTE ]
And loving the buff.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A MM?
[/ QUOTE ]
has a much greater ability to solo than a defender
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I love soloing AVs with either of my two 50 MMs.
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What about a scrapper?
[/ QUOTE ]
same thing as before
[/ QUOTE ]
And completely agree here.
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I only have my experience to back me up, and my gut feeling is that defenders are a fantastic AT that is not broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
i completely agree. defenders are a fantastic (and IMHO the best) AT that isnt broken. its inherent is the opposite of that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, for me the inherent and the AT are one in the same and can't be separate. If you get a chance to read my other post since you only quote part of one for a specific reply to another poster, you can see that I feel that a change in vigilance would nerf what makes the AT shine.
[/ QUOTE ]
How would a change in something that has little/none effect on the AT currently(especially solo) nerf said AT? Its kinda hard to call a change a nerf if that change isnt definite yet.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
[ QUOTE ]
how would a change in something that has little/none effect on the AT currently(especially solo) nerf said AT?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because I said in my other post and hope you get a chance to read the thread rather than focus on one little point:
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, these changes that keep getting proposed would result in a nerf to our strongest assets - the buffs/debuffs. I always viewed our damage output or status protection or whatever to be balanced to what we can add to others.
For example, form a duo of blaster and an emp def. Giving that blaster buffs, heals, and status protection makes a powerful combination that more than makes up the lower damage by the emp defender alone.
If they were to change the inherent power for more soloable, then the balance would be that the defenders won't shine as much on teams and would be "replacable" by controllers and corruptors.
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words, any thing that makes a defender stronger such as change to the inherent (and I think they are overpowered in what they do for others and in combination) would be balanced by a decrease from our best abilities - buff/debuff. If they decrease those, then we will be on par with controllers and corruptors, and won't shine any more.
I've not been playing a defender for long, but I really can't wrap my head around Vigilance. Yeah there's an endurance reduction for damaged teammates, but I see a small problem.
See, if your team starts taking damage, it's usually because they screwed up. If they screwed up, you have to start farting out your buffs/debuffs/heals much faster than you were before, and I'll admit that the endurance reduction helps. The problem is this: If you're in really deep, the need for you to apply awesome may become greater than the speed at which you're able to apply awesome, which may lead to a team wipe. Sure, you could take Hasten, but that eats up a power slot that could otherwise be used for a buff, a debuff, a heal, or a secondary blasting power.
Something that might work better could be +Recharge/+Recovery instead of endurance reduction, based on math similar to the existing inherent. That way you could apply your awesome faster when your team starts dying, with enough of that happy blue bar to continue applying awesome until either you die or the emergency's over, which would hopefully bail them out of whatever fire they stuck themselves in.
But that's just my opinion. Said opinion is based off my experience with a TA/A, where the faster I can splatter debuffs on things the better, so I may be just a little biased.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how would a change in something that has little/none effect on the AT currently(especially solo) nerf said AT?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because I said in my other post and hope you get a chance to read the thread rather than focus on one little point:
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, these changes that keep getting proposed would result in a nerf to our strongest assets - the buffs/debuffs. I always viewed our damage output or status protection or whatever to be balanced to what we can add to others.
For example, form a duo of blaster and an emp def. Giving that blaster buffs, heals, and status protection makes a powerful combination that more than makes up the lower damage by the emp defender alone.
If they were to change the inherent power for more soloable, then the balance would be that the defenders won't shine as much on teams and would be "replacable" by controllers and corruptors.
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words, any thing that makes a defender stronger such as change to the inherent (and I think they are overpowered in what they do for others and in combination) would be balanced by a decrease from our best abilities - buff/debuff. If they decrease those, then we will be on par with controllers and corruptors, and won't shine any more.
[/ QUOTE ]
just so we're clear your saying that they will "balance" them by decreasing the values for our current buffs and debuffs to put them on par with controllers and corruptors to compensate for a new inherent?
A) assuming that they would in fact take some sort of action to "balance" defenders with the addition of a new inherent, they wouldnt lower the values simply because we get the sets as a primary instead of a secondary like controllers and corruptors. what kinda since would that make if a primary and secondary put out the same numbers?
B) we have no idea if they would "balance" defenders if we were to get a new inherent. they didnt touch blasters when they got defiance 2.0 so why would they mess with defenders?
Also, i did read the rest of your post. I only addressed part because im fairly tired and to be honest, i dont give a [censored]. I can, if you really want me to.
EDIT: i always put the term balance in quotes because thats just a fancy word the devs use in place of nerf. also spelling.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
The problem with Vigilance isn't that it's no good, the problem is that it's based around the thought that a Defender must team and the defender must constantly do one thing.
Defenders using powers on enemies are subtly lowering an enemy's defense/attack/weakness to certain other attacks.
Defender currently buffing the team are making allies stronger/faster/harder to hit.
None of those have any use for vigilance as it currently stands.
Green numbers are but one of a Defenders many vital uses and one of the only things Vigilance works for, to some degree.
I'd rather see Vigilance as an overall buff to the defender. Something in the neighborhood of a 2% bonus to whatever powers they chose. Be it more damage mitigation, or stronger buffs/debuffs, or what have you.
This way, whether you are teaming or not, you are being Vigilant.
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
how would a change in something that has little/none effect on the AT currently(especially solo) nerf said AT?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because I said in my other post and hope you get a chance to read the thread rather than focus on one little point:
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, these changes that keep getting proposed would result in a nerf to our strongest assets - the buffs/debuffs. I always viewed our damage output or status protection or whatever to be balanced to what we can add to others.
For example, form a duo of blaster and an emp def. Giving that blaster buffs, heals, and status protection makes a powerful combination that more than makes up the lower damage by the emp defender alone.
If they were to change the inherent power for more soloable, then the balance would be that the defenders won't shine as much on teams and would be "replacable" by controllers and corruptors.
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words, any thing that makes a defender stronger such as change to the inherent (and I think they are overpowered in what they do for others and in combination) would be balanced by a decrease from our best abilities - buff/debuff. If they decrease those, then we will be on par with controllers and corruptors, and won't shine any more.
[/ QUOTE ]
just so we're clear your saying that they will "balance" them by decreasing the values for our current buffs and debuffs to put them on par with controllers and corruptors to compensate for a new inherent?
A) assuming that they would in fact take some sort of action to "balance" defenders with the addition of a new inherent, they wouldnt lower the values simply because we get the sets as a primary instead of a secondary like controllers and corruptors. what kinda since would that make if a primary and secondary put out the same numbers?
B) we have no idea if they would "balance" defenders if we were to get a new inherent. they didnt touch blasters when they got defiance 2.0 so why would they mess with defenders?
Also, i did read the rest of your post. I only addressed part because im fairly tired and to be honest, i dont give a [censored]. I can, if you really want me to.
EDIT: i always put the term balance in quotes because thats just a fancy word the devs use in place of nerf. also spelling.
[/ QUOTE ]
First, of course we don't know what the devs would plan to do. I guess in future in I have to add disclaimers as my opinion and so forth so people don't get confused...
Second, because it was indicated by the devs (no disclaimer here) that blasters were *underperforming as an AT*. Another is stalkers. The stalker buff was partly tied to teaming (chance to crit 10% + 3% per additional team member). Stalkers were great soloers, but had team survivability issues and, in my experience, never actively searched for on teams. The buff helped that.
Are defenders *underperforming as an AT*? In your experience, defenders don't make others greater? Or when in combination, killing machines? Are defenders not asked to join teams?
I'll say again, in my opinion, any thing that will make the defenders stronger will have to be balanced by some thing else. And, again in my opinion, the only thing to take from defenders is their buffs/debuffs since the only other thing left is our secondaries, which are already weaker.
I will also add that I would like to know why I get this impression from different posters/threads that defenders need to be on par with blaster damage, scrapper survivability, or whatever. They are a team based AT and make others more powerful at the their expense.
[ QUOTE ]
...
Defenders using powers on enemies are subtly lowering an enemy's defense/attack/weakness to certain other attacks.
Defender currently buffing the team are making allies stronger/faster/harder to hit.
...
I'd rather see Vigilance as an overall buff to the defender. Something in the neighborhood of a 2% bonus to whatever powers they chose. Be it more damage mitigation, or stronger buffs/debuffs, or what have you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just asking Aurex.
In one part you say defenders weaken enemies (damage mitigation/debuffs) and strengthen allies (buffs), then indicate this needs an overall buff.
This is related to my other post, but what will be given up for this buff? Or are defenders not able to perform up to the expectation with their buffs/debuffs?
[ QUOTE ]
in my experience, never actively searched for on teams. The buff helped that.
[/ QUOTE ]
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Are defenders not asked to join teams?
[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience , no they arent. im always on one of my defenders and im stuck either forming my own team or asking to join another (and more often than not being the only defender there and being out numbered by controllers and corrupters). Why? if i were to take a wild stab in the dark I would say that most people pick the other two over defenders for their much better damage, see containment and scourge, and are willing to take a cut in buff/debuff values. NOT saying that defenders are underperforming by any means, but a buff to a nearly useless inherent would be amazing! even something to improve our buff/debuff ability(directly, not something as indirectly as a small end discount). Do we know for sure that they would then in turn nerf defenders? of course not, so we really cant argue that we would be giving something up for a better inherent. The same goes for tankers and gauntlet. Neither tanks nor defenders under perform on teams but both are stuck with a very crappy inherent that need some kind of change.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
the idea behind Vigilance isn't bad, it just sucks as is in practice. He's how it can be improved:
Vigilance
1) Instead of an Endurance discount, make it +recovery and add in +regen while increasing the effectiveness beyond the current paltry levels.
or
2) Increase the end discount, and add the like for the health bar. So if endurance gets a discount then health should too in the form of -dmg.