Vigilance


Airhammer

 

Posted

Vigilance is by far the weakest and most useless inherent in the game. Controllers bring as much to a team or more (unless the Defender sacrifices solo ability and goes full support) and is still a much stronger soloist than Defenders. At epic levels, this discrepancy is worsened as Controllers get access to AoE attacks turning them into the dreaded magetanks. Controllers awesome inherent basically doubles the damage they do. All other ATs get strong inherents that often define the AT. Defenders get stuck with an inherent that might as well not exist.

My suggestion would be to turn Vigilance into something similar to a reverse Kheldian Cosmic Balance. With this a Defender inherent would grant all team members, including him or herself, certain minor bonuses depending on what AT they are. For instance, Tankers would be given resistance/defense buffs, Blasters/Scrappers would gain accuracy/damage buff, Defenders would get recovery/regeneration buffs and debuff resistance, Controllers would get a recharge buff and status effect resistance. The bonuses would stack with each extra Defender in any given team. When solo, a Defender would retain only a single Defender bonus (Recovery/Regeneration and Debuff resistance) only.

This way, the inherent would be useful in both team and solo situations, thematically appropriate and well balanced. What do you guys think?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post
Vigilance is by far the weakest and most useless inherent in the game. Controllers bring as much to a team or more (unless the Defender sacrifices solo ability and goes full support) and is still a much stronger soloist than Defenders. At epic levels, this discrepancy is worsened as Controllers get access to AoE attacks turning them into the dreaded magetanks. Controllers awesome inherent basically doubles the damage they do. All other ATs get strong inherents that often define the AT. Defenders get stuck with an inherent that might as well not exist.

My suggestion would be to turn Vigilance into something similar to a reverse Kheldian Cosmic Balance. With this a Defender inherent would grant all team members, including him or herself, certain minor bonuses depending on what AT they are. For instance, Tankers would be given resistance/defense buffs, Blasters/Scrappers would gain accuracy/damage buff, Defenders would get recovery/regeneration buffs and debuff resistance, Controllers would get a recharge buff and status effect resistance. The bonuses would stack with each extra Defender in any given team. When solo, a Defender would retain only a single Defender bonus (Recovery/Regeneration and Debuff resistance) only.

This way, the inherent would be useful in both team and solo situations, thematically appropriate and well balanced. What do you guys think?

A good idea, however out of the three ATs without standard status protection, Controllers need it the least. The most frustrating thing about Defending is Vigilance (as it is now) working fine, but being stunned/held/slept etc and unable to react no matter how full your end bar is.

No other hero AT suffers from this as obviously...Controllers rarely get hit, let alone mezzed, Blasters have Defiance and (solo) this is usually enough to live through the fight. So just my tuppence. Good idea though the style of it is very apt.


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

Actually, I'd say the VEAT inherent is -significantly- more useless.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
Actually, I'd say the VEAT inherent is -significantly- more useless.

I agree but at least it works solo. And by that I mean it's *there* solo ;P


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

I'll give you that. Like many people, I'm of the opinion that it should take the defender's own health into account.


 

Posted

That would be good, I'd be happier with the first 2 Primary powers being usable while mezzed and a slight reduction in the -end discount, but might be a bit much for some powersets.


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
Defenders currently get their inherent benefit by failing to do their job. If you're doing well, you will never see any benefit whatosever from your good performance because your team will lose no hit points. In essence, defenders are punished for doing their job well.
More than anything, this is my problem with it. Even if it's effects were quadrupled, I'd still hate it, because the entire concept behind it is contrary to what a defender is supposed to do. It rewards defenders for not doing their job.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaver View Post
A good idea, however out of the three ATs without standard status protection, Controllers need it the least. The most frustrating thing about Defending is Vigilance (as it is now) working fine, but being stunned/held/slept etc and unable to react no matter how full your end bar is.

No other hero AT suffers from this as obviously...Controllers rarely get hit, let alone mezzed, Blasters have Defiance and (solo) this is usually enough to live through the fight. So just my tuppence. Good idea though the style of it is very apt.
You're of course correct. My suggestion was playig to he strengths of each AT, it could easily be altered to covering the weaknesses instead. Thinking of it, that sounds more like a defenderish role anyhow.

As I see it, the three major problems of defenders are lack of status protection, endurance management and damage (worst of all ATs in all three categories really). On the other hand, Tankers has no real weaknesses they need defended. Any suggestions for how such a version might look?


 

Posted

Though I see your point I disagree that a Defender is "supposed" to keep its team healthy. Designed for it yes, but there are parts of the game that naturally you will end up soloing. Of course you don't have to solo, it just feels unfair to expect the entire AT to ALWAYS team. Some prefer to solo, but the powersets available to Defenders fit their character theme etc.

And...since when was playing this game a job? I play my Defender like a crazed squirrel, constantly obsessing over health/end bars, damage buffs, recharge speed, where my enemies are, and every few minutes I remember the team might want some buffing. Or not. Depends if they're in range...


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post
You're of course correct. My suggestion was playig to he strengths of each AT, it could easily be altered to covering the weaknesses instead. Thinking of it, that sounds more like a defenderish role anyhow.

As I see it, the three major problems of defenders are lack of status protection, endurance management and damage (worst of all ATs in all three categories really). On the other hand, Tankers has no real weaknesses they need defended. Any suggestions for how such a version might look?
I would say Tankers' weakness is also endurance, given that most have a fair few toggles and they naturally need to spend more end than scrappers to get the job done, due to lower damage. Have you ever watched a Dark/EM tank slowly go insane from toggle management? :P


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaver View Post
I would say Tankers' weakness is also endurance, given that most have a fair few toggles and they naturally need to spend more end than scrappers to get the job done, due to lower damage. Have you ever watched a Dark/EM tank slowly go insane from toggle management? :P

If I may weigh in on this topic, I certainly feel that Defenders need something in regards to their Inherent.

I see Defenders as the flip-side of Blasters, much as Tankers are the flip-side of Scrappers.
As such, Blasters and Scrapper inherents are very nice and well suited to their AT.
Tankers Inherent is thematic, although I am sure Veteran tankers have varied opinions of it.
At one point (sorry my memory is not so great) Tankers got a slight adjustment to their Endurance costs on their attacks. I dont recall the official stance on why this was done, but I feel that Defenders should have an endurance tweak as well.

As far as a good Inherent option. I would propose a generic endurance savings based on their endurance bar itself. For example, we could get a endurance cost reduction as we lose endurance 1% savings every 2% used endurance. Theoretically, this would be 50% endurance savings at 0% endurance, but would be less tied to the Powersets, and still be thematic.

Additionally, Blasters have the ability to use certain abilities while under status effects. I think it would be much more thematic for Defenders to have some ability of this type. Perhaps we could only use our 1st Primary power while under status. This is more wishfull thinking on my part, and may be too powerful, but hey ! I can hope.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Additionally, Blasters have the ability to use certain abilities while under status effects. I think it would be much more thematic for Defenders to have some ability of this type. Perhaps we could only use our 1st Primary power while under status. This is more wishfull thinking on my part, and may be too powerful, but hey ! I can hope.
The problem with that is that, unlike Blasters, Defender Tier 1 powers are anything but standardised. For example, a Dark would be able to use Twilight Grasp, while a Stormy gets Gale....


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhroX View Post
The problem with that is that, unlike Blasters, Defender Tier 1 powers are anything but standardised. For example, a Dark would be able to use Twilight Grasp, while a Stormy gets Gale....
Yep, Which is why its more wishful thinking on my part.

But it is thematic. Your Mezzed Darkie, is ever-vigilant and can pop off a heal under any condition. While a Stormie can send foes flying. An Empath could AoE heal

IF (and its a BIG If) they did this, they would probably shift around the first powers in some effort to balance which ones would be usable. Poor Forcefield I doubt theyd let you use PFF under this condition. Although ....


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Yep, Which is why its more wishful thinking on my part.

But it is thematic. Your Mezzed Darkie, is ever-vigilant and can pop off a heal under any condition. While a Stormie can send foes flying. An Empath could AoE heal
A TA could... Immobilize... the thing which is... already in melee range... pounding on him/her...

Quote:
IF (and its a BIG If) they did this, they would probably shift around the first powers in some effort to balance which ones would be usable. Poor Forcefield I doubt theyd let you use PFF under any condition. Although ....
So I could... Flash Arrow... the spawn which I already used Flash Arrow on... fifteen seconds before they mezzed me...

Yeah, somehow I'm not seeing this proposal as being an improvement over the current Vigilance.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
If I may weigh in on this topic, I certainly feel that Defenders need something in regards to their Inherent.

I see Defenders as the flip-side of Blasters, much as Tankers are the flip-side of Scrappers.
As such, Blasters and Scrapper inherents are very nice and well suited to their AT.
Tankers Inherent is thematic, although I am sure Veteran tankers have varied opinions of it.
At one point (sorry my memory is not so great) Tankers got a slight adjustment to their Endurance costs on their attacks. I dont recall the official stance on why this was done, but I feel that Defenders should have an endurance tweak as well.

As far as a good Inherent option. I would propose a generic endurance savings based on their endurance bar itself. For example, we could get a endurance cost reduction as we lose endurance 1% savings every 2% used endurance. Theoretically, this would be 50% endurance savings at 0% endurance, but would be less tied to the Powersets, and still be thematic.

Additionally, Blasters have the ability to use certain abilities while under status effects. I think it would be much more thematic for Defenders to have some ability of this type. Perhaps we could only use our 1st Primary power while under status. This is more wishfull thinking on my part, and may be too powerful, but hey ! I can hope.
It's not a bad idea, the second point. Not sure about the scaling endurance reduction though, coming from a Kinetics' point of view. Endurance issues for Empathy/Kinetics/Cold Domination are rarely a problem in the end game. On the other hand what use would shields be if they cost 50% less to use but you literally just applied them and unlucky shots got through..? Yes the shielding sets have other tools, but I think the end reduction isn't as necessary as the *speed* at which you can defend. We can get Conserve Power, Catch a Breaths etc if we need endurance, just like the other ATs. During "times of trouble" as Vigilance is supposed to help out in, we need +recharge, or a boost to buffs/debuffs.

Literally every single one of the suggestions in this entire thread have at some point been raised in the Defender board though..


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminara View Post
A TA could... Immobilize... the thing which is... already in melee range... pounding on him/her...



So I could... Flash Arrow... the spawn which I already used Flash Arrow on... fifteen seconds before they mezzed me...

Yeah, somehow I'm not seeing this proposal as being an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I would settle for them letting us use Ally Only buffs even while mezzed. Trick Arrow/Dark Miasma would lose out there though...


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaver View Post
It's not a bad idea, the second point. Not sure about the scaling endurance reduction though, coming from a Kinetics' point of view. Endurance issues for Empathy/Kinetics/Cold Domination are rarely a problem in the end game. On the other hand what use would shields be if they cost 50% less to use but you literally just applied them and unlucky shots got through..? Yes the shielding sets have other tools, but I think the end reduction isn't as necessary as the *speed* at which you can defend. We can get Conserve Power, Catch a Breaths etc if we need endurance, just like the other ATs. During "times of trouble" as Vigilance is supposed to help out in, we need +recharge, or a boost to buffs/debuffs.

Literally every single one of the suggestions in this entire thread have at some point been raised in the Defender board though..
From my own experience, Yeah, I would prefer the second option. Endurance issues are very fixable, and something that every Hero addresses. The only reason why I see endurance as a good generic way to handle this, is that its like the opposite of the damage scalar of blasters. They blast to increase their damage and it stacks over time.
We use our abilities (whatever powerset you choose) and you gain a stacking savings as your bar lowers.

I have always said (in my SG) that Blasters and Scrappers are like sprinters, whereas Tankers and Defenders are like Marathon runners. One group kills with speed(dmg), the other can go on-and-on-and-on like the energizer bunny.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminara View Post
A TA could... Immobilize... the thing which is... already in melee range... pounding on him/her...



So I could... Flash Arrow... the spawn which I already used Flash Arrow on... fifteen seconds before they mezzed me...

Yeah, somehow I'm not seeing this proposal as being an improvement over the current Vigilance.
I see where you're coming from. The last thing Defenders want is to have another inherent that rewards different power sets unequally. How about this then:

A straight out status effect resistance bonus to all defenders coupled with something similar to the old Blaster Defiance. In which Defenders get a geometric boost to +recovery if endurance is low and likewise a boost to +regeneration if health is low.

Such an inherent would be thematic, balanced and well worth having.


 

Posted

Hello Luminara,

I understand what your saying. I dont expect this to happen seriously, and I also pointed out that the Devs would probably shuffle around the first 3 powers in our primary to make the first one acceptable to their 'balance' ideas.

very doubtful that we would get it, just that (to me) it would be nice.

Also I will have to admit that I have no experience with TA and Cold Dom.
So, I am sure you are correct in how that inherent would not benefit TA as much as say, Empathy.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
The last thing Defenders want is to have another inherent that rewards different power sets unequally.
I would suggest this is unavoidable. Defender primaries may (mostly) fill the same role on a team but they're so different from each other in mechanics and playstyle there's no one-size-fits-all inherent possible. This also happens to be my favorite thing about defenders and what has made it fun for me to level up a variety of them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet View Post
I would suggest this is unavoidable. Defender primaries may (mostly) fill the same role on a team but they're so different from each other in mechanics and playstyle there's no one-size-fits-all inherent possible. This also happens to be my favorite thing about defenders and what has made it fun for me to level up a variety of them.
So what's wrong with switching Vigilance into a +Rech/+Recovery that activates and increases in effectiveness as you and your team get hurt? I might've missed the arguments against it but, while the concept doesn't specifically buff power capabilities, it could let any defender use their more impressive fight-altering abilities more often without having to worry as much about their blue bar.


 

Posted

The funniest thing is that if we *did* get +recharge/some way to use powers while mezzed etc, during low levels our endurance would be hurting, for most sets.


Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor

 

Posted

I take great umbrage with the assertion that Vigilance encourages a defender to kill off team members. Unless there's someone afk mooching on your team, it's a terrible idea to let someone's health go low in order to get endurance.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
I take great umbrage with the assertion that Vigilance encourages a defender to kill off team members. Unless there's someone afk mooching on your team, it's a terrible idea to let someone's health go low in order to get endurance.
And?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire View Post
And?
IF: "Unless there's someone afk mooching on your team, it's a terrible idea to let someone's health go low in order to get endurance." = true

THEN: "Vigilance encourages a defender to kill off team members" = false